Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Maybe Porsche needs to fail... - Page2

Nov 25, 2005 4:47:09 AM

greggr107: Pilot; Loc: San Jose, CA; Posts: 385, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 20, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
samuel said:
Porsche to me is not about ultimate horsepower. Its about passion, style, elitism and individuality. M3's etc are ten a penny they're like assholes everyone has one. BMW have no style, no beauty, no finesse no downright look at me I stand out from the crowd, forgods sake their ugly. How many people do you know who wait a lifetime to buy a BMW. How many people do you know that drool over the siight of a BMW. Please don't degrade the 911 anymore by comparing it to inferior cars that don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath never mind sit in the same drive.Superior horsepower doesn't make the car.

Everything you wrote about BMW applies to Porsche. Within the next couple of years, they will be producing over 100,000 cars! All models share parts and design. They are the Ford and GM of the sport car world.

As for drooling over the design of a Porsche, clearly you have a physical problem. The design has been around for years and unless you are in a state of perpetual drooling, you may have a vision problem as well

Hey the trust fund baby is back!

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Nov 25, 2005 5:21:23 AM

chili: Pilot; Loc: Bay Area - East Bay; Posts: 354, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 10, 2005; Reply to: throt

Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

Quote:
throt said:
Quote:
chili said:
.

Just like having a wife or girlfriend. There's always something better but you stay with you stay with them if they make you happy.

But you can always have a dabble cant you ? , but the Mrs says if she catches me ,, " I be wearing my bollocks as earings " ..

Is it worth wearing hairy earings , what yu think ??..

throt..

My motto "if it happens, it happens". Just don't get caught.

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Nov 25, 2005 5:29:41 AM

Louis: Pilot; Loc: Toronto , Canada; Posts: 409, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 28, 2005; Reply to: samuel

Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

Quote:
samuel said:
M3's etc are ten a penny they're like assholes everyone has one.

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Nov 25, 2005 9:58:28 AM

samuel: Newbie; Loc: n.ireland; Posts: 37, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 15, 2005; Reply to: bstew

Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

Quote:
bstew said:
Quote:
samuel said:
Porsche to me is not about ultimate horsepower. Its about passion, style, elitism and individuality. M3's etc are ten a penny they're like assholes everyone has one. BMW have no style, no beauty, no finesse no downright look at me I stand out from the crowd, forgods sake their ugly. How many people do you know who wait a lifetime to buy a BMW. How many people do you know that drool over the siight of a BMW. Please don't degrade the 911 anymore by comparing it to inferior cars that don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath never mind sit in the same drive.Superior horsepower doesn't make the car.

Hey this is your personal opinion. As you know everyone has one. I don't agree with you at all. I like the new BMW designs and I know people who have waited to buy a BMW. It's all about personal choice. I have owned both [BMW and Porsche] and both of them offer things that I like. I can see myself buying another BMW in the future as soon as my kids can't fit into the back of my 997. One of the things I enjoy doing is putting the top down on my 997 and riding with my family. As soon as the kids get too big to fit in the 997 it will be time for the 997 to go. Now will I replace it with a BMW, I don't know but until that time comes it is an option.

I mistakenly thought I was entitled to an opinion without offence and that discussion boards were an open and inoffensive way of doing just that.

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Nov 25, 2005 10:38:39 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: samuel

Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

Samuel, you made some good points.

Given the choice of either for free, who would wake up one morning and choose a new BMW over a new Porsche to drive?

Porsches are iconic, BMW's are ironic.

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Nov 25, 2005 12:39:15 PM

bstew: Expert; Loc: NC, USA; Posts: 1797, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 11, 2005; Reply to: samuel

Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

Quote:
samuel said:
Quote:
bstew said:
Quote:
samuel said:
Porsche to me is not about ultimate horsepower. Its about passion, style, elitism and individuality. M3's etc are ten a penny they're like assholes everyone has one. BMW have no style, no beauty, no finesse no downright look at me I stand out from the crowd, forgods sake their ugly. How many people do you know who wait a lifetime to buy a BMW. How many people do you know that drool over the siight of a BMW. Please don't degrade the 911 anymore by comparing it to inferior cars that don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath never mind sit in the same drive.Superior horsepower doesn't make the car.

Hey this is your personal opinion. As you know everyone has one. I don't agree with you at all. I like the new BMW designs and I know people who have waited to buy a BMW. It's all about personal choice. I have owned both [BMW and Porsche] and both of them offer things that I like. I can see myself buying another BMW in the future as soon as my kids can't fit into the back of my 997. One of the things I enjoy doing is putting the top down on my 997 and riding with my family. As soon as the kids get too big to fit in the 997 it will be time for the 997 to go. Now will I replace it with a BMW, I don't know but until that time comes it is an option.

I mistakenly thought I was entitled to an opinion without offence and that discussion boards were an open and inoffensive way of doing just that.

You are entitled to your opinion and I did not mean for mine to sound offensive in any way. We all have opinions and yours is as valid as anyone else. I don't agree with yours and I'm sure you don't agree with mine.

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Nov 25, 2005 12:48:34 PM

bstew: Expert; Loc: NC, USA; Posts: 1797, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 11, 2005; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Samuel, you made some good points.

Given the choice of either for free, who would wake up one morning and choose a new BMW over a new Porsche to drive?

Porsches are iconic, BMW's are ironic.

Well now I would love for them to be free like everyone else.

I think one picks a car depending on what they want to use it for. I currently have 2 small kids who can fit into the back of my 997. Now once my kids can't fit guess what, I will look for another car.

Now if my 997 had more room in the back then I wouldn't look at all but we know how much room is in the back of a 997. So if BMW has something I want I will buy. I am not saying I like a BMW more then a Porsche or a Porsche more then a BMW. I have owned both and I like both for different reasons. One doesn't have to like Porsche and nothing else. Again this is just my opinion.

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Nov 25, 2005 1:17:02 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: bstew

Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

Quote:
bstew said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Samuel, you made some good points.

Given the choice of either for free, who would wake up one morning and choose a new BMW over a new Porsche to drive?

Porsches are iconic, BMW's are ironic.

Well now I would love for them to be free like everyone else. I think one picks a car depending on what they want to use it for. I currently have 2 small kids who can fit into the back of my 997. Now once my kids can't fit guess what, I will look for another car. Now if my 997 had more room in the back then I wouldn't look at all but we know how much room is in the back of a 997. So if BMW has something I want I will buy. I am not saying I like a BMW more then a Porsche or a Porsche more then a BMW. I have owned both and I like both for different reasons. One doesn't have to like Porsche and nothing else. Again this is just my opinion.

One word, and I'll say it quietly:

Panamera

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Nov 25, 2005 2:02:48 PM

bstew: Expert; Loc: NC, USA; Posts: 1797, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 11, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

I hadn't thought of that. It will be added to the list.

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Nov 25, 2005 3:12:50 PM

AJVIP: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1862, Gallery; Registered on: May 30, 2005; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Samuel, you made some good points.

Given the choice of either for free, who would wake up one morning and choose a new BMW over a new Porsche to drive?

Porsches are iconic, BMW's are ironic.

Indeed

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Nov 25, 2005 4:02:01 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: AJVIP

Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

Bottom end:

the truth lies somewhere in the middle...

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Nov 25, 2005 5:05:01 PM

Paul S in TX: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 259, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 20, 2002; Reply to: lavaman23

Re: Maybe Porsche needs to fail...

Personally, I would like to see Porsche dramatically increase its base prices and make most of the current options standard equipment. Let's face it, a 997 is really an $80,000 car masquerading as a decontented $71,000 sticker price car.

That's the conduct that kills Porsche ownership--resale prices seem to start at base sticker price on down, effectively giving very little credit for all these expensive options. The option list could keep exclusive items like carbon fiber trim, paint to sample, Nav, powerkit and PCCB. The rest of the "options" just throw on the car and price it accordingly.

As for the HP war, I don't think Porsche has ever played that game but I'm not a Porsche historian so my impression may be off. All this hand wringing of the new Turbo not matching up is premature--I'll bet you the new Turbo will do its lineage proud.

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Nov 25, 2005 5:25:03 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Paul S in TX

Re: Maybe Porsche needs to fail...

Quote:
Paul S in TX said:
Personally, I would like to see Porsche dramatically increase its base prices and make most of the current options standard equipment. Let's face it, a 997 is really an $80,000 car masquerading as a decontented $71,000 sticker price car.

That's the conduct that kills Porsche ownership--resale prices seem to start at base sticker price on down, effectively giving very little credit for all these expensive options. The option list could keep exclusive items like carbon fiber trim, paint to sample, Nav, powerkit and PCCB. The rest of the "options" just throw on the car and price it accordingly.

As for the HP war, I don't think Porsche has ever played that game but I'm not a Porsche historian so my impression may be off. All this hand wringing of the new Turbo not matching up is premature--I'll bet you the new Turbo will do its lineage proud.

All the previous Turbos were at the top of the range regarding horsepower in their time. The 997 will be the first car to actually be clearly outclassed regarding the horsepower number.

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Nov 25, 2005 5:48:49 PM

ScottL: Junior; Loc: United Kingdom; Posts: 135, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 26, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: Maybe Porsche needs to fail...

There is obviously a growing feeling that Porsche is becoming greedy...particularly when you factor in options and the relatively poor standard specification of it's cars.

Trouble is business is not a popularity contest and Porsche is having no problems finding buyers.

I heard this week that they have sold the first 12 months worth of UK Cayman allocation (roughly 1500 cars). I expect it's the same elsewhere in the world.

Business is good for them and confidence is sky high. I wonder how long it will last?

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Nov 25, 2005 5:51:06 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: bstew

Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

Quote:
bstew said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Samuel, you made some good points.

Given the choice of either for free, who would wake up one morning and choose a new BMW over a new Porsche to drive?

Porsches are iconic, BMW's are ironic.

Well now I would love for them to be free like everyone else. I think one picks a car depending on what they want to use it for. I currently have 2 small kids who can fit into the back of my 997. Now once my kids can't fit guess what, I will look for another car. Now if my 997 had more room in the back then I wouldn't look at all but we know how much room is in the back of a 997. So if BMW has something I want I will buy. I am not saying I like a BMW more then a Porsche or a Porsche more then a BMW. I have owned both and I like both for different reasons. One doesn't have to like Porsche and nothing else. Again this is just my opinion.

The 911 is Porsches special gift to fathers with small children.

The rear mounted engine and its noise makes them fall asleep easily, and when they get older, they would rather go anywhere in a 911 instead of any sedan.

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Nov 25, 2005 7:41:28 PM

Jim48: Senior; Loc: Virginia, USA; Posts: 639, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2005; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: Maybe Porsche needs to fail...

Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
As for Porsche's greed (excessive option list, only moderate HP-increase over time) I think we should not blame Porsche in the first place, but Porsche's competitors!

Porsche generated an EBT-margin of nearly 19% in the most recent FY (04/05) - not including the dealership's additional margin of course. As such a high margin is unparalleled in the car industry it is a clear sign of lacking competition. I think most people would recognise a BMW M3 more as a superfast sedan than a sports car, so there is not a too big overlap in the respective audiences.

Traditionally Ferrari and Lamborghini are regarded as P's competitors building sports cars which you can enjoy for everyday use also (that a lot of F-car owners abusing their cars as garage queens, is another topic though), although pricewise there is only a small overlap with Porsche's most expensive models.

The problem is, that Ferrari sticks to an ancient business model which does not allow to create value for the company due to it's self-imposed limitation of production capacity (I think it's max. 4,300 cars p.a.), not allowing for economies of scale. To me it's very sad that Ferrari (which I have a lot of respect and passion for) generates a ridiculous appr. 1.5 bn Euro sales (ridiculous compared to the world-wide awareness and reputation of the brand) with NO PROFIT at all (Porsches EBT nowadays is close to Ferrari's sales). The only people making profits with Ferraris are some dealers and customers (specifically in the US) abusing the closed shop system.

Why does Ferrari not learn from the Porsche experience and would offer some new model range at least in the 100 k Euro market ? They might loose some existing snob customers who are after the exclusivity thing (BTW I don't think that Porsche has lost any 911 customer by introducing the Boxster), but overall I bet they would create big value for their shareholders AND (new) customers.

The same rule should apply to Lamborghini, but I doubt that they would allow to compete with Porsche in a broader range after Porsche has bought the 20% share in VW.

So basically Porsche might feel like having created almost a monopoly in the midrange (pricewise) market for Sportscars with a "everyday use option" (F-cars and L-cars being too expensive for most of P's customers, maybe a little bit too flashy for some others, Lotus & Co. not too expensive, but more track-toys than for everyday use).

So it's natural for Porsche to exploit their USP to the max. until really being challenged by their competitors.

To me it compares to the situation in F1 when everybody has been complaining that Schumi and Ferrari would bore the audience to death with their endless seeming string of victories - in a competitive environment they should have been complaining about the poor performance of the competitors rather than blaming Ferrari/Schumi.

Totally agree. Porsche has the best niche in the sports car market, the one that produces the greatest profits possible on these "supercars." It seems to me that's why they introduced the Cayman S, to prevent a competitor from entering their niche, and if one did, to defend it with a fine product.

Last year, just as the new 997 was being introduced in England, Andrew English of the London Daily Telegraph (26/6/04) agreed with the Porsche CEO, Dr. Wiedeking, in stating that the new 911 offered the most car for the money in Porsche history. I think that assessment was spot-on.

The bottom line is that Porsche is highly profitable precisely because it has given customers what they want, the best sports car in that price range.

I can't wait to take delivery of my 911S, which now should arrive early, by the second week of January.

Jim

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Re: If it's hp vs looks, looks always win.

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