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JimFlat6 said:
Sorry, RC, but the German military has been a joke in Afghanistan.With the exception of the few SF teams they have in country, the regular German units there have been timid, useless and nothing more than armed tourists. They are a national disgrace for their combat avoidance, lack of initiative and zero fighting spirit. Worse yet they dont even realize that or want to admit it. Blame it on the political leadership, the culture or whatever, but they are a joke force of suntan seekers from a costume shop. Excluding the KsK, the German military in the past ten years
cannot name, or even guess the name, of a SINGLE bandit, Taliban, terrorist, Somali warlord, Balkan butcher or Afghani drug runner it has fired even one bullet at. Their score is zero for 10 years of overseas deployment in the worlds hotspots.
Jim, this time, I have to disagree with you. You may want to learn something about Germany's constitution, laws (some of them forced upon us by the US occupancy after WWII) and international agreements.
1. the german army was never allowed to get involved in war activities outside the german border, you can't ignore the constitution and a law, which actually resulted from WWII.
2. the first time Germany attacked a foreign country was in Serbia, german planes were jamming certain frequencies and at the same time deploying rockets on radar and anti-air/ground-to-air missle sites. The german Luftwaffe did that to keep these missles off the US Airforce's b.tt because the US Airforce didn't have this technoogy (believe it or not). This action was backed by a UN resolution.
3. the german army is in Afghanistan on a PEACE mission, they are not in war. This is ESSENTIAL to their whole presence there, you should learn a little bit more about international politics, laws and agreements. The fact that the KSK is operating in this region is a well known "secret", the german government doesn't like to talk about it because it could endanger the presence of their soldiers there. First goal of the german army in Afghanistan is a police action, to secure the work of aid helpers and to patrol around Afghanistan to give people confidence. Trust me if I tell you that no Afghani is really happy to see a US uniform.
4. the german navy is also supporting patrol and police action (also backed by UN resolutions) in certain regions, especially next to Africa.
I'm afraid that I have to say something about the Bush government too and believe me, everybody who knows me, knows that I'm with the US on most of the global issues but I also think that the Bush government did a lot of mistakes. You can't cut a tumor from somebody's body with a nuke, you need a scalpel if you want to have even the slightest chance to rescue him.
Look at your post and I start to realize why the Bush goverment lost support in the international world. You just have to learn to INFORM yourself before you start to plan a strategy. The Bush government also succeeded in making the US the most hated country in the world and I'm not exaggerating and I'm not talking about the middle east only. I'm afraid the US press and especially television is a little bit biased, if you would see and hear what we see and hear over here, you would be ashamed of the whole situation. But to make one thing clear: I do NOT agree with it, I AM a supporter of the USA but I also think that the Bush government broke a lot of porcellan like we say here.
Take the supporting countries like Italy, the Netherlands or others. Even the UK. Do you think the population likes what happens? Do you think that the US has a positive image in these countries? Have you never asked yourself: why the heck do they hate us? Why do they protest against us? The answer is simple: 90% of the people in the Bush government have no clue about diplomatic rules, propaganda and how to "persuade" friends to help. You can't put a gun at a friend's head and ask him for support. This ain't gonna work. Pres. Bush isn't even the problem, I don't know why all the people blame him for what is happening. The problem are certain people in the US government who lied to him and who had and still have their own agenda. Especially Rumsfeld and Cheney come on my mind.
Look what is happening in Iraq: you fight a war, you win it and then you loose over 2000 lives in activities AFTER the war officially ended. This is insane.
Why did this happen? Simple: because the US strategy was focused on military action only but forgot completely about police action, propaganda action and more important actions to win the sympathy of the population.
Regarding France, this is a different story. You can't expect a country which has strong ties to the middle east, incl. some very important oil contracts, to be on your side when you want to start a war.
Sorry Jim but the world isn't just black and white, wrong or not wrong, good or bad. There is much more involved and unfortunately the US succeeded in losing almost all sympathy they had after 9/11 from the international community. This was the dumbest thing the US government could ever do. And believe it or not, the next dumbest move will probably be the removal of the US presence/army from Iraq sooner or later, leaving Iraq in chaos.
Politically and economically, I agree, Germany is a mess indeed. But this has nothing to do with the army or with the support for the US in the past.
You should ask yourself how it was possible that the media worldwide (incl. even US media) portraits Pres. Bush and his government as THE evil, sometimes even more than the Taliban, Bin Laden and all the others? How was it possible to get this far? It is a shame.
Again: I agree with the reasons why the US had to do what they did and I even agree with most of the methods.
What I don't agree with is the fact that they ignored the opinion of their friends and walked over dead bodies to achieve their own agenda, ignoring some vital political facts and national delicacies.