Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal - Page1

Aug 11, 2005 6:01:06 PM

Damian: Senior; Loc: Pa, USA; Posts: 646, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 10, 2005; Reply to: 86BBUB

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Autocar writer's own subjective assessment....fine.

I just jumped out of a lunchtime joyride in the 97S with PASM...after 670 miles, each drive is better than the next. I have no idea what Autocar could possibly be talking about. One or two writer's subjective opinion?

If the vehicle were any more engaging, it would be a motorcycle.

P.s. I actually LOVE Sport suspension setting on PASM, use it about 1/2 of the time, feels almost exactly like the old Lamborghini Countach I used to drive--in other words, sublime.

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Aug 11, 2005 6:34:36 PM

wtsnet: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Bath, UK; Posts: 2430, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 19, 2004; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
The positive about PASM is that in non sport mode it gives a much more comfortable ride, wich is nice for long trips
and stop and go commutes.

The negatives about PASM over the slightly lowered sports suspension is that the engine sits higher, so the center of gravity is higher and if you drive a PASM car on either setting even just moderately hard in corners, you can feel the rear suspension on its subframe move laterally a small amount as the shock absorber sensors decide what to do next It doesnt unbalance the car, but it is annoying to feel.

I completely agree. I get the same wobbly rear end on my 987, particularly bad if you hit a bumpy bend aggressively in 'normal' PASM mode. I've found it's better to put the car into 'sport' mode if you know you're going to be going into that sort of situation. It's not ideal, but it's a little better prepared then.

The flip side is more comfort in normal mode. And possibly a little more fuel economy due to a more compliant ride? But I'm only guessing on that!

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Aug 11, 2005 6:37:32 PM

oneofew: Newbie; Loc: California USA; Posts: 33, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2005; Reply to: Damian

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

JimFlat6
Thanks for the clarification.
Wow, that's pretty amazing for a performance car in this caliper is sold without a limited slip diff.

There are much lesser cars that came standard with some kind of locking diff.
What are these Porsche people thinking of?

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Aug 11, 2005 7:42:14 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12585, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: oneofew

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Quote:
oneofew said:
JimFlat6
Thanks for the clarification.
Wow, that's pretty amazing for a performance car in this caliper is sold without a limited slip diff.
There are much lesser cars that came standard with some kind of locking diff.
What are these Porsche people thinking of?

I agree that the 997 should have an optional LSD. It is a big oversight, however, it's not quite the crime it would be in a front-engined car. The 997 has tremendous grip from its weight distribution, wide tires, and electronic aids. It's no substitute for a real LSD, but it's MUCH less of a problem than it would be in an M3 or Corvette for example...

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Aug 11, 2005 8:37:24 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: oneofew

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Quote:
oneofew said:
Wow, that's pretty amazing for a performance car in this caliper is sold without a limited slip diff.
There are much lesser cars that came standard with some kind of locking diff.
What are these Porsche people thinking of?

PSM, maybe?

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Aug 11, 2005 8:44:49 PM

JZ: Pilot; Loc: London, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 370, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

I had the pleasure of driving a 997S on -20mm and PCCB on a racetrack on a Porsche Drinving Experience day ten driving a 987 with PASM on Sport afterwards.

The PCCB was awsome and the Boxsters brakes had started to show the stress after 2 fll days of track use, but the biggest thing I took away was how well sorted the -20mm chassis was on the 19' Carerra S wheels. The feedback throught the seat of your pants as to what the car was doing in full attack style bends was superb, and only my lack fo driving ability prevented me from exploiting it to the full. There was a wealth of information and the whole car was hughely responsive.

However the PASM equipped car was very impressive in grip and lack of roll, but there was no major input through my seat as there was on the 997. The PASM seemed to make you feel remote from the track. Impressive, but missing something.

For me I would spec the -20mm and the PCCB (which again was quite simply the best stopping initial bite and fade resistance I have ever experienced) if I were going for a 997 instead of a 987.
Oh, and all the 997 had the new PSE, not a 'rippy' as a 996 sport exhaust, but very very loud.

Cheers,

JZ

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Aug 11, 2005 10:32:39 PM

throt: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 6078, Gallery; Registered on: May 9, 2005; Reply to: JZ

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

JZ ,,

What about our UK roads , would the -20mm be too hard ..

Whats your opinion ..

Thanks in advance ..

throt..

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Aug 11, 2005 10:44:31 PM

JZ: Pilot; Loc: London, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 370, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2005; Reply to: throt

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Throt,
really hard to say as the racetrack is smooth. However, the ride was SO good on the race track, I imagine on your average British B road, you wouldn't have a problem. I think it is definitley the better option over PASM. The car just feels alive underneath you, whereas the PASM, whilst good, feels slightly remote. All a back to back comparison. The PASM may prove better for everyday use.

Would still go for -20 and PCCB though, if you were EVER going to track it. Even once!

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Aug 12, 2005 7:27:20 PM

throt: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 6078, Gallery; Registered on: May 9, 2005; Reply to: JZ

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

JZ ,,

Thanks its a tempter ..

throt..

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Aug 12, 2005 8:20:13 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12585, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: JZ

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Quote:
JZ said:
The PCCB was awsome and the Boxsters brakes had started to show the stress after 2 fll days of track use, but the biggest thing I took away was how well sorted the -20mm chassis was on the 19' Carerra S wheels. The feedback throught the seat of your pants as to what the car was doing in full attack style bends was superb, and only my lack fo driving ability prevented me from exploiting it to the full. There was a wealth of information and the whole car was hughely responsive.

However the PASM equipped car was very impressive in grip and lack of roll, but there was no major input through my seat as there was on the 997. The PASM seemed to make you feel remote from the track. Impressive, but missing something.

For me I would spec the -20mm and the PCCB (which again was quite simply the best stopping initial bite and fade resistance I have ever experienced) if I were going for a 997 instead of a 987.

Nice Review! Many thanks

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Aug 12, 2005 8:47:52 PM

jjr1: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 213, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2002; Reply to: throt

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Quote:
throt said:
JZ ,,

What about our UK roads , would the -20mm be too hard ..

Whats your opinion ..

Thanks in advance ..

throt..

Its easily compliant enough on UK roads and it can even cope with the mad Irish pot holed roads as well.

If anything the -20mm rides a lot softer than I imagined it would.

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Nov 9, 2005 2:32:53 PM

edz: Rennteam Pro; Loc: South Orange County; Posts: 2022, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 11, 2005; Reply to: 86BBUB

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Guys we are all right and they are all right too. Whatever floats your boat. Sadly we all care what other say. But what matters is how we feel about our cars. I personally side with Grant, he knows what he is talking about. Yes you have to take all the good with the bad. The S has many advantages over the 997 and a couple draw backs. Autocar people are humans like the rest of us and they have their opinion which means nothing to me, Offer the 997S and 997 at the same price and we will see how many knock the 997S

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Nov 9, 2005 2:47:12 PM

temm: Rennteam Master; Loc: Oslo , Norway; Posts: 4122, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 24, 2003; Reply to: br d

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Quote:
br d said:
Yeah, they're all the same these bloody philosophers. I mean, Kant may well have realised it's the representation that makes the object possible, rather than the object that makes the representation possible, but I still wouldn't let him reverse my car into the garage.

br d

Does you car have parking sensors?

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Nov 9, 2005 3:26:53 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59579, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: 86BBUB

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Quote:
86BBUB said:
Anyone read latest issue of Autocar? They feel the 997 is clearly the one to own. Better riding, handling and more involving. I've read this in other mags too. Could this be true????

I really don't understand, honestly. Of course the 997 Carrera isn't slow and the chassis setup is absolutely great too, even without PASM. But let me see: from 0-125 mph, the 997 Carrera has been tested 1-1,5 seconds slowlier than the 997 Carrera S and in the handling department, the 997 Carrera S (with PASM as a standard option) is also a few km faster. More involving? How come? Both have the same steering system.

From my experience, don't always believe what car magazines write. Of course PASM has a few "problems" when it comes to the SPORT mode and bad streets (because tire connectivity to the street may be compromised due to stiffness) but otherwise, PASM is a perfect combination of both worlds: sportiness and comfort.

There is a saying and especially with Porsche, it is very valid: you get what you're paying for.

And Porsche makes sure that you REALLY get what you're paying for, the new Cayman S is a good example (not 100% Boxster but no 911 either...

).

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Nov 9, 2005 6:25:33 PM

jjr1: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 213, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Quote:
More involving? How come? Both have the same steering system.

One has 18 inch wheels and standard suspension and the other doesn't.

Does that answer your question?

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Nov 9, 2005 6:34:05 PM

chipper: Pilot; Loc: Hawai'i; Posts: 400, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 20, 2003; Reply to: jjr1

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Sorry, maybe I missed this, but what issue of AUTOCAR carries the story? Does anyone have an exact quote from the story. Again, my fault if I missed this in the many posts above. Thanks.

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Nov 9, 2005 6:44:20 PM

jjr1: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 213, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2002; Reply to: chipper

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

It was quite a while ago and sorry I don't have the specific date. The main guy whose opinion gets carried across various UK magazines is a guy called Chris Harris who had a 997S and then decided it was the wrong choice after driving a 997.

He contributes to Autocar and various specific Porsche magazines and he is quite handy behind the wheel, hence his opinions are often well regarded.

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Nov 9, 2005 8:20:02 PM

chipper: Pilot; Loc: Hawai'i; Posts: 400, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 20, 2003; Reply to: jjr1

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Here are some posts from other sites about Chris Harris and the 997 vs. 997S story, plus 18s vs. 19s issue:

Manthey Motors - a race tuner of Porsche in England - has been quoted as saying the 18 inch wheel is optimal for performance. I know that's rim size, but I'm not aware of an 18 inch wheel available for the 911 that's 305, so I must assume they are referring to a wheel that is < 305. Wlater Rohl has been quoted as saying the 18's are best. The thought of a 997S with 18 inch wheels has crossed my mind, but it would hurt resale value considerably.

I was reading Autocar on the way home last night, and was quite surprised to read Chris Harris in his column saying he was gutted on buying the wrong car. He took delivery of a new 997 Carrera S a month or so ago, but after driving a basic Carrera with the PCCB brake option, he said that the cheaper car with its smaller 18" wheels and reduced unsprung mass due to the ceramic brakes handled and rode far better on our roads. He reckoned it made a better buy than the 'S'.

I know a lot of people like to rubbish Autocar, but Chris Harris is I believe a half-decent driver, and has been far from disgraced driving a 911 in some porsche cup races. Has anyone here had any similar experiences of the two cars?

Interesting piece in Autocar by Chris Harris. Reckons the 997 to own is the base model with ceramic brakes. And no 19 inchers.

Reckons the performance is, as far as UK roads are concerned, essentially the same and the handling and ride are that much sweeter, thanks to 18 inch rims/rubber and the standard suspension. The lighter ceramic brakes help the ride apparently (but for me that would be a waste of Pounds5K+).

When the AutoCar reporter suggested the 997 was a better handler, I don't think he meant that it would go round corners faster than a 997S. I think he meant its handling was the more enjoyable. This chap was probably more interested in the thrill of driving rather than the max corner speed and acceleration. In this respect, it IS quite a story! Because it does ask questions about the PASM ! IS it taking away some of the fun? ARE those 19" wheels with even fatter tyres robbing the driver of playfulness?

I do think a 997S with 18" lightweight BBS LM wheels with the skinniest tyres possible, PCCB brakes, LSD with -20mm suspension instead of the heavy PASM would make all the difference to the ride and handling AND AND AND the thrill of driving !

.

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Nov 9, 2005 8:23:23 PM

jjr1: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 213, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2002; Reply to: chipper

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

I ditched the PASM but couldn't get rid of the bling 19's

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Nov 9, 2005 8:26:25 PM

throt: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 6078, Gallery; Registered on: May 9, 2005; Reply to: jjr1

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Quote:
jjr1 said:
I ditched the PASM but couldn't get rid of the bling 19's

jj ,, whats your colour spec ?? ..

throt..

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Nov 10, 2005 12:09:24 AM

jjr1: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 213, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2002; Reply to: throt

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Well after a lot of thought I decided on something a little way out. I can't stand people who just go for the obvious, without showing any passion or flare, so I thought I would re-educate the blind.

I went with Basalt black/black. As you can see a very stand out, hey look at me car

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Nov 10, 2005 2:41:53 AM

Dasein: Veteran; Loc: Mountains of western NC, USA , United States; Posts: 933, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2005; Reply to: throt

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

My subscription to "Excellence" started today with the December issue. Both they and Autoweeek feel there is a problem with 997s and PASM to the degree that they are recommending against the S in favor of the regular 997 until Porsche solves the PASM handling problem. This may be much ado over nothing, just passing it on.

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Nov 10, 2005 2:54:56 AM

superfans: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 150, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2005; Reply to: Dasein

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

Is there a problem with PASM? Is this problem critical? When Jeremy Clarkson and Tiff Needle try out the 997S, they don't seem to have any problem with the PASM.

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Nov 10, 2005 3:20:54 AM

Dasein: Veteran; Loc: Mountains of western NC, USA , United States; Posts: 933, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2005; Reply to: superfans

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

December "Excellence", page 155. I'm not going to type it all in but here's a bit of what they said.
I did NOT quote exactly verbatim (too lazy) but I believe I gave you the gist of what they said.
They drove three 997s; a Carrera S Cab, an S Coupe, and a "plain" Carrera Coupe. Only the plain Carrera didn't exhibit the "rear-end shift" they noticed "in every PASM equipped 997 so far ... "
"Both S models exhibited this troubling trait whenever they encountered surface irregularities while cornering." "The coupe even did it on fast 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th upshifts."
"It's minimized in the Sport setting but not eliminated."
"The Cab S with its heavier rear end poundage from the TIP and soft-top seemed to mask the sensation."
Until this happens (they fix the problem) they pick the basic 997.

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Nov 10, 2005 5:18:27 AM

JCNPB: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 32, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 5, 2004; Reply to: Dasein

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

I own a 2001 996 coupe. I am interested in buying a 997 or 997S. Over four days in September, I drove both a 997S coupe with sport chrono and a 997 cab in Germany and France. Both cars had 19" wheels and PCCB. This was a Porsch Driving Tour of Burgundy and Alsace. These were low mileage factory maintained cars in excellent condition. We drove on the autoban as well as one lane country roads and many things in between including some great roads in the Vosge mountains of eastern France. Both cars were terrific. It is difficult to compare the two cars because they both had different strengths, particularly the "cab experience" on European roads in September. However, I noticed a dirrerence in the suspensions of the two cars--"road feel." The 997 cab had "road feel" (driver's ability to feel the surface conditions under the car through the car), like my 996. The 997S did not. The handling of the 997S was incredible. The sense of power, agility, and PCCB was intoxicating. I couldn't wait to get up and drive each day. Unfortunately, there just was not much road feel in the 997S in comparison to the cab. I can only assume that the lack of road feel is due to PASM.

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Nov 10, 2005 4:24:08 PM

john999s: Senior; Loc: Hessen, Germany , Germany; Posts: 630, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: JCNPB

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

I had a 996C2 and now a 997s since September. After 4000 miles and a trip to Stuttgart and back I think I know the car a bit better now. The feel through PASM is there but you have to drive the car hard and then the feel comes. But you end up going faster to get the feel. I still prefer the older steering set-up though although I'm getting used to the new set-up now. I think that the major benefit of PASM apart from more speed down any given road is tremendous comfort on a long run. 700 miles from Home to Stuttgart and the same back and the ride is significantly superior to the 996 with far less fatigue.(I took the 996 to Portugal last year.) But I'd really like to try the -20mm and LSD to see what that's like on big trips and what the feedback is like.

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Nov 10, 2005 4:34:30 PM

Kevin034: Pilot; Loc: WA; Posts: 393, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 7, 2005; Reply to: john999s

Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

PASM is weird, that's all I have to say. Last night while taking a corner and varying in speed, the turning response changed on me. Then again, only 200 miles so far, still getting used to it.

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Re: Autocar slams "S" and PASM; 997 the real deal

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