Crown

Not the most exciting E63 video out there but interesting...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2oSa0mygK0

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

9Eleven:

nberry:

Christian, I am curious. If your son school mates make comments about your R8/Porsche and infer you're a millionaire, what the hell do German kids parents drive their children to school with? Kia's? Prius? Do they own shoes? Do you live in a slum district?

Hmm, now that I think about it, with all your lease payments over the years you easily could have a million dollars in the bank.

I have enjoyed Rennteam silently for some time. The observations and knowledge of active participants have been super informative. I think the above comments go too far.  Any smart person choosing to lease v depreciation on most cars has capital opportunity to invest elsewhere, particularly when most cars do not have the residuals of a gt3 or 488gtb. I made on cash on a 458 and 575 and lost a $100k on an FF, so stupid me ! So RC cars of choice make perfect sense being leased and nberry select choices may get him ahead on sale time. However one little accident will put paid to that when it comes to selling without a clean Carfax. So the opportunity cost of capital ( leasing) outweighs purchase in all except, those lucky to get a special desirable low volume ( 918), collector cars ( 575 manual ) ) or those of a vintage at close to bottom of depreciation curve ( 996 turbo). The game will last as long as developed economies have crazy low interest rates. Great forum and wonderful insights !

 

My comments were made in jest. But since you mention the issue, do you realize that car financing is around 2%? Do you know how much lease financing is? Porsche was close to 6%. While I agree that the lease company takes the risk on accident damage (how often does that happen?), it also extracts many contractual obligations including early termination charges and payment for "issues" when the car is turned in. At that time to buy the car it could be an eye opener as to its value.

Finally, no doubt the market has been good for everyone whether they lease or finance their car. The difference is when you finance the car you own it and every payment you make builds equity in the car. Lease payments....well.

I will agree that leasing can be right under certain limited circumstances especially if you can tie it to a business.

You have your way. I have my way. As for the correct way and the only way, it does not exist.

At the end of the day, who cares whether its lease, loan, or cash. None of us is here permanently so there is no permanent ownership of any kind in any case. Cars are meant to be enjoyed, nothing more. Whatever works for you is the right answer.....

You can’t find 2% car financing unless it is subsidized. 5 years government risk free rates are around 2.5%...

SciFrog:

You can’t find 2% car financing unless it is subsidized. 5 years government risk free rates are around 2.5%...

Credit unions are offering 1.49 and once over 100,000 depending on the length of the loan it can go up to 2.49. Still way cheaper than lease financing.

You have your way. I have my way. As for the correct way and the only way, it does not exist.

All my leases have effectively been negative interest rates. That is the monthly payment sum is less than the difference between the retail cost and the residual value. In effect free money. No need to sink good money into equity which can’t keep up with depreciation. These negative interest lease deals is what RC is chasing and it is tons better than finanicing. Cars that I keep I always pay cash and buy them depreciated never new. 

I did briefly have a Santander car loan at 2.25% for an old used Porsche so nberry is correct. There is some cheap money for car. Loans. Mine was directly through eBay and while it was a five year loan it’s purpose was just to get the car home quickly. 

Leawood, nothing is free. 

You have your way. I have my way. As for the correct way and the only way, it does not exist.

nberry:

Leawood, nothing is free. 

Nick, of course nothing is free but the terms bargain or good deal aren't exactly difficult to understand, aren't they?! 

I pay 1599 EUR per month for 36 months, 40k km for the whole 3 years, for a car worth almost 164k EUR (163.7xx). No down payment.

If you think this is a bad deal, well...I bet to differ.

I pay 890 EUR per month for 12 months, 10k km per year, no down payment for a 991.2 Carrera GTS Cab, same thing. Bad deal? You decide.

I've been offered a BMW 235i xDrive (worth around 60k EUR) for 299 EUR per month, no down payment, 36 months, 10k km per year. Such deals are available all the time, the models and brands may differ but there are good deals out there.

All deals including 19% VAT.

Buying a car? What for? It keeps capital blocked/wasted and it is a pain in the ass to get rid of that car after I get bored and want to sell it.

With a (mileage...never ever residual value) lease, I just return the car to the dealer and I'm done with it. No worries. Zero. Zilch.

There is nothing more beautiful than a lease, especially with good deals. Unless you really want to keep the car forever.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Interesting...I didn't find an Edition 1 but configuring the car with the same options in the US configurator, it is much cheaper than in Germany, even if you add local VAT. Lease cost (at least the official one displayed in the offer, a down payment is required...I think 14k or 17k...don't remember anymore) is much higher of course but I guess that similar to Germany, there are (better) individual offers available at dealers.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Upsa:

At the end of the day, who cares whether its lease, loan, or cash. None of us is here permanently so there is no permanent ownership of any kind in any case. Cars are meant to be enjoyed, nothing more. Whatever works for you is the right answer.....

True but I actually care about the cost. A lot. 

Lease advantage (if you are looking for good deals, the standard deals often suck): Usually no down payment, monthly "rent" payment, after 36 months (or whatever time period), you drive to the dealer, let the car there and you're done. With some luck, the dealer offers you a prolongation of the lease at the same or even reduced cost or you get a new car, maybe even a newer model for the same money (it happened to my wife with her Macan and the Cayenne and it happened to me with the 991.2 GTS).

Buying a car? The moment you buy it new, you already lost 20%, if it is a sportscar, probably 30% (with few exceptions) one you register the car on your name. Then, you drive it let's say three years and you get bored of it. You need to sell it. Good luck selling a 100k+ car on the private market, this can get really crazy (I have friends who did that and their stories are just insane). If you want to sell the car through a dealer, he wants his commission and/or to sell you one of his cars. Bla bla bla... Long story short: It is a pain in the ass.

I even had a lease deal for a GT2 RS, believe it or not: I think it was around 400(!) EUR per month, VAT included, 95k EUR down payment, for 36 months, 10k km per year. OK, over 110k EUR to drive a GT2 RS for three years but I could have bought it after the lease. Remaining value would have been around 200k or so. Not that bad. Offer was not from Porsche Financial (they didn't offer a lease deal) but from a private lease company my dealer often works with.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

C63 S T (station wagon), worth around 120k EUR.

926 EUR (incl. 19% VAT) for 48 months, 10k km per year. No down payment.

http://luxuryleasing.de/exklusiv-angebot-der-woche-mercedes-amg-c63s-t-modell-leasing/

Probably only for business owners but still...

Like I said, if you look for deals...you find them. 

I love Germany for these car deals. 

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Well, it looks like a nice offer indeed. But this is just a broker with a website. A lot of bla bla is to read, like value, luxury, transparency etc. if you submit a request with the form your address will be accumulated in a special pool with the sticker "wealthy person".  so if you want "nice" offers for swimming pools, luxury travel, expensive watches etc. go for it.

Hey RC check out the comparison between Panamera Turbo and E63 S on EVO.co.uk.

Nice write up, the E63 S is the "King of Super saloons" !!!

Obviously the Pan  Turbo S Hybrid is on another price level 

I have done exactly one lease in my life and ended up buying the car and keep it for 10 years. Leases don’t work for everyone.

First I like to keep cars at least 5 years and overall owning cars for long periods of time will cost less because the depreciation in years 5-10 is much less. Cars do get better but it usually only happens every 7 or 8 years when new generations are introduced. In between, you are just chasin g the latest and greatest and you will pay for that.

Second, you need to find these good leases, and you need to happen to like the cars these great leases are on. There is no secret and no free money, good leases are on cars that don’t sell well for one reason or another. You might be able to negotiate a significant discount if paying cash. Point case: at least in the USA, R8 sales are bad as are Cayenne diesel and sporty sedans (people want crossovers and SUVs). The cars people want will not have good leases or discounts, in my area, Range Rover sells their cars at MSRP, zero discount because the dealers sell their entire allocations every year anyway. Walk into a Porsche dealer and you will get a large discount on high end Cayennes and Panameras simply because they are too expensive to start with, or they will try to stuff you one of these to get an allocation on a GTx 911. Anyhow, never been able to find a good lease on the cars I really wanted to buy...

Car payments when financing "will build equity" but most cases the entire expenditure ends up higher then the lease.

The latter also gives you protection from all these crazy Carfax reports, they are becoming a real issue lately, not just an accident on record but even a minor fender bender or even a scratch touch up ends on it and lowers the trade value significantly when you want to sell.

A few years ago it cost me $30k additional loss on my 599 after Carfax showed "paint work on front bumper".

In reality, a 1 inch scrape underneath that I should have left alone but being anal took it to my dealer to fix it properly at a cost of $900.

SciFrog:

or they will try to stuff you one of these to get an allocation on a GTx 911. A

It happens with you guys too. Guys here in the UK actually do do that with still no guarantee of a GT allocation. Result is -   , then , then a  . Its not for me for sure..GT's are good but not that good ..

throt

"I Have Done It!".

991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

Rennteam Hairy Chest Advisor.

RC:

C63 S T (station wagon), worth around 120k EUR.

926 EUR (incl. 19% VAT) for 48 months, 10k km per year. No down payment.

http://luxuryleasing.de/exklusiv-angebot-der-woche-mercedes-amg-c63s-t-modell-leasing/

Probably only for business owners but still...

Like I said, if you look for deals...you find them. 

I love Germany for these car deals. 

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

 

10k km/year for a daily? You'd have to stop driving in March? 

1992 Mercedes-Benz W124 500E  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport

Porker:

RC:

C63 S T (station wagon), worth around 120k EUR.

926 EUR (incl. 19% VAT) for 48 months, 10k km per year. No down payment.

http://luxuryleasing.de/exklusiv-angebot-der-woche-mercedes-amg-c63s-t-modell-leasing/

Probably only for business owners but still...

Like I said, if you look for deals...you find them. 

I love Germany for these car deals. 

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

 

10k km/year for a daily? You'd have to stop driving in March? 

throt

"I Have Done It!".

991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

Rennteam Hairy Chest Advisor.

Conny997:

Well, it looks like a nice offer indeed. But this is just a broker with a website. A lot of bla bla is to read, like value, luxury, transparency etc. if you submit a request with the form your address will be accumulated in a special pool with the sticker "wealthy person".  so if you want "nice" offers for swimming pools, luxury travel, expensive watches etc. go for it.

 It was just an example...

Chevrolet offers now in Germany a 499 EUR lease for 48 months for the latest Camaro V8 model. It is my understanding that some dealers even offer this price with fully loaded cars.

leasingtime.de also often has interesting offers...

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Porker:

RC:

C63 S T (station wagon), worth around 120k EUR.

926 EUR (incl. 19% VAT) for 48 months, 10k km per year. No down payment.

http://luxuryleasing.de/exklusiv-angebot-der-woche-mercedes-amg-c63s-t-modell-leasing/

Probably only for business owners but still...

Like I said, if you look for deals...you find them. 

I love Germany for these car deals. 

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

 

10k km/year for a daily? You'd have to stop driving in March? 

The E63 S will be leased with 40k km for 36 months, the C63 S convertible with 60k km for 36 months. This is perfect for us and our needs. I usually take only 10k km for my weekend toys (I did around 18k km with my R8 until now, almost 18 months have passed). For my weekend toy, I never need more than 10k km per year.

Me and my wife do not travel a lot for business...thank god. 

A friend does 60k km per year(!) in his S63 AMG, so different story.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

For my 23 year old daughter I lease a VW Tiguan for $210 per month including taxes.  I put $1000 down. With options like sunroof and heated seats it was a $24000 car.  After 36 months I have the option to buy for $15000. That is $9000 less than the retail cost after a total of $8560 in payments including taxes.  Sadly if we turn in with less than 36000 miles there is no benefit. Service is free for the entire time. 

My wife leases a Honda HRV for about $20 less all other terms and costs the same as the VW. She also spect the sunroof and heated seats. What can I say. I am generous. 

My daily driver lease (0nly drive it about 4Miles per year) is a Hyundai Azera. It is a nice large front drive four door with luxury features, a reasonable v6 and a good ride for when I take Mom places.  I put nothing down and pay $310 per month for it. It is valued at $40k new  

That is three cars for around $700 per month including taxes.  Actual financing would be closer to $1100 and I would need to pay $7600 in sales taxes all at once right off the bat. I doubt I could or would want to sell these cars for the residual values the lease would allow. Typically the cars I have leased were not even close to worth the residual value. I could drop them off after the lease and buy them back for $2k less. This makes the small lease payment even more attractive (the free money part) and frees up Turbo money. 

All these cars are attractive, reliable, safe and wonderfully average. I did not buy them just because of the good lease as these are world class competive cars. The Azera is the sleeper. It is made in Korea not in the US and quality is like a Mercedes or a Lexus. It is exceptionally well built. 

RC:

Porker:

RC:

C63 S T (station wagon), worth around 120k EUR.

926 EUR (incl. 19% VAT) for 48 months, 10k km per year. No down payment.

http://luxuryleasing.de/exklusiv-angebot-der-woche-mercedes-amg-c63s-t-modell-leasing/

Probably only for business owners but still...

Like I said, if you look for deals...you find them. 

I love Germany for these car deals. 

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

 

10k km/year for a daily? You'd have to stop driving in March? 

The E63 S will be leased with 40k km for 36 months, the C63 S convertible with 60k km for 36 months. This is perfect for us and our needs. I usually take only 10k km for my weekend toys (I did around 18k km with my R8 until now, almost 18 months have passed). For my weekend toy, I never need more than 10k km per year.

Me and my wife do not travel a lot for business...thank god. 

A friend does 60k km per year(!) in his S63 AMG, so different story.

there was a time I was doing 110k km just in one year...yepppppp

That's a lot of time on the road, wow

Leawood911:

For my 23 year old daughter I lease a VW Tiguan for $210 per month including taxes.  I put $1000 down. With options like sunroof and heated seats it was a $24000 car.  After 36 months I have the option to buy for $15000. That is $9000 less than the retail cost after a total of $8560 in payments including taxes.  Sadly if we turn in with less than 36000 miles there is no benefit. Service is free for the entire time. 

You guys are so spoiled with low lease prices. As a private person (no company) my Volvo is 1450,- € a month (actually 750 plus down payment of 25000 €) - 36 months run time, 20k km / year. A comparable Tesla X would have been 2200,- € with the same down payment. 

A couple of updates regarding my E63 S order:

1. Car is planned for production May 1st to May 10th. Hooray.

2. No particulate filter for my car (sound, performance issues).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Lars997:

Leawood911:

For my 23 year old daughter I lease a VW Tiguan for $210 per month including taxes.  I put $1000 down. With options like sunroof and heated seats it was a $24000 car.  After 36 months I have the option to buy for $15000. That is $9000 less than the retail cost after a total of $8560 in payments including taxes.  Sadly if we turn in with less than 36000 miles there is no benefit. Service is free for the entire time. 

You guys are so spoiled with low lease prices. As a private person (no company) my Volvo is 1450,- € a month (actually 750 plus down payment of 25000 €) - 36 months run time, 20k km / year. A comparable Tesla X would have been 2200,- € with the same down payment. 

 

 

Ouch.  This is E63 S territory without ceramic brakes and the minor options I added. 

Yes, Tesla has expensive leases... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

Lars997:

Leawood911:

For my 23 year old daughter I lease a VW Tiguan for $210 per month including taxes.  I put $1000 down. With options like sunroof and heated seats it was a $24000 car.  After 36 months I have the option to buy for $15000. That is $9000 less than the retail cost after a total of $8560 in payments including taxes.  Sadly if we turn in with less than 36000 miles there is no benefit. Service is free for the entire time. 

You guys are so spoiled with low lease prices. As a private person (no company) my Volvo is 1450,- € a month (actually 750 plus down payment of 25000 €) - 36 months run time, 20k km / year. A comparable Tesla X would have been 2200,- € with the same down payment. 

 

 

Ouch.  This is E63 S territory without ceramic brakes and the minor options I added. 

Yes, Tesla has expensive leases... 

I pay like 730 EUR for my Bmw 435i. It's not a lease but still, it means I could replace it with Christian's 991.2 GTS  if I was living in Germany for about the same money. It's nuts.

Obviously, at the end, I'll own the bimmer and I'll probably be able to sell it for 30K. But the lease Christian's got on his GTS does not make any sense to me. 12 months @ 890 means it will cost Christian 10K to run. In just one year I really doubt his GTS will have lost in value less than 10K. It will be more like 25K. What's the catch for the dealer ? I don't get it. 

RC:

Lars997:

Leawood911:

For my 23 year old daughter I lease a VW Tiguan for $210 per month including taxes.  I put $1000 down. With options like sunroof and heated seats it was a $24000 car.  After 36 months I have the option to buy for $15000. That is $9000 less than the retail cost after a total of $8560 in payments including taxes.  Sadly if we turn in with less than 36000 miles there is no benefit. Service is free for the entire time. 

You guys are so spoiled with low lease prices. As a private person (no company) my Volvo is 1450,- € a month (actually 750 plus down payment of 25000 €) - 36 months run time, 20k km / year. A comparable Tesla X would have been 2200,- € with the same down payment. 

 

 

Ouch.  This is E63 S territory without ceramic brakes and the minor options I added. 

Yes, Tesla has expensive leases... 

Yes - the Volvo is expensive (Car price is 114.000 €) and no one ever would guess that 

amazon:

RC:

Lars997:

Leawood911:

For my 23 year old daughter I lease a VW Tiguan for $210 per month including taxes.  I put $1000 down. With options like sunroof and heated seats it was a $24000 car.  After 36 months I have the option to buy for $15000. That is $9000 less than the retail cost after a total of $8560 in payments including taxes.  Sadly if we turn in with less than 36000 miles there is no benefit. Service is free for the entire time. 

You guys are so spoiled with low lease prices. As a private person (no company) my Volvo is 1450,- € a month (actually 750 plus down payment of 25000 €) - 36 months run time, 20k km / year. A comparable Tesla X would have been 2200,- € with the same down payment. 

 

 

Ouch.  This is E63 S territory without ceramic brakes and the minor options I added. 

Yes, Tesla has expensive leases... 

I pay like 730 EUR for my Bmw 435i. It's not a lease but still, it means I could replace it with Christian's 991.2 GTS  if I was living in Germany for about the same money. It's nuts.

Obviously, at the end, I'll own the bimmer and I'll probably be able to sell it for 30K. But the lease Christian's got on his GTS does not make any sense to me. 12 months @ 890 means it will cost Christian 10K to run. In just one year I really doubt his GTS will have lost in value less than 10K. It will be more like 25K. What's the catch for the dealer ? I don't get it. 

 

 

Same happened with the Cayenne S Diesel over a year ago.

Dealers apparently get incentives to get rid of "old" generation models and/or they want to clear their stock, I don't have a clue. Both times, my sales guy called me actively and basically begged for doing the deals. 

I was actually dumb, should have gone with the proposed 18 months instead of the 12 months I negotiated (same deal though) but my wife wants to have the C63 Cab in October because my son "terrorizes" her when she picks him up at school in the 911. First world problems. 

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

This is nice, I can follow pre-production and production with an app (Mercedes Me). 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)