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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Quote:
mcdelaug said:
To my eyes it is an insulting, crass attempt by Porsche to make money by selling the APPEARANCE of sportiness but not actually delivering the goods
I just picked out this part of your post (the rest of it is excellent too).
Seems crass to me also because they threw in all that other stuff the Sport Chrono option does, like homelink adjustments, other loose ends I can't remember. All thru the manuals (car and PCM) there's different little features of the car that only come with Sport Chrono. Like they subtracted stuff from the car which were originally standard and added them to the SC bs insted.
Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
All of the M96 engined Porsches are more about marketing and options then delivering the promise of their heritage.
They go, stop, corner great. They ought to with such giant wheels, brakes and hp to weight ratio.
But the sum of those parts is missing something, and that is the absolute bias to sport and over engineered design they once had.
I await the 997 GT3.
They go, stop, corner great. They ought to with such giant wheels, brakes and hp to weight ratio.
But the sum of those parts is missing something, and that is the absolute bias to sport and over engineered design they once had.
I await the 997 GT3.
Oct 6, 2005 4:29:05 AM
- Avantgarde
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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Quote:
mcdelaug said:
If you've read this far I suppose you've figured out I am NOT a fan of this thing. It will never be in any car that I own.
mcdelaug
Hi,
With all due respect, I think Porsche develop a car for the greater market that includes not only 'quick response heavy footed' pros like your kindself but also normal mortal ppl.
I would definitely use the 'sport' button whenever I drive the car but my wife and aging parents will never use that sporty button. The button is going to be there as Porsche engineers decided whether anyone of us like it or not....I personally think its a neat alternative for aspiring driving enthusiast who needs every little assistance that technology can offer. If one doesn't like it.....simply ignore the button and don't activate it.
Peace
Oct 6, 2005 4:47:37 AM
- SoCal Alan
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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Sport Chrono ON, adds another 200 rpm. Its more than just remapping the throttle and adjusting PASM response.
The ridiculous truly thing about Sport Chrono is that it is offered at all.
The extra 200 rpm should be there in the first place and the throttle should be hair trigger sharp to match the chassis.
This option shows Porsches intent of dumbing down the car to appeal to a variety of non enthusiasts.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the reason that the "sport" version of the modulated throttle response wasn't standard was because the throttle was too sensitive for driving in less optimal weather conditions (ie., rain/sleek, etc.,)? Otherwise, yes, I'd rather have the "sport" version of the modulated throttle response, considering that the button is pressed almost everytime I'm in the car.
Oct 6, 2005 4:52:42 AM
- JimFlat6
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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Quote:
SoCal Alan said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Sport Chrono ON, adds another 200 rpm. Its more than just remapping the throttle and adjusting PASM response.
The ridiculous truly thing about Sport Chrono is that it is offered at all.
The extra 200 rpm should be there in the first place and the throttle should be hair trigger sharp to match the chassis.
This option shows Porsches intent of dumbing down the car to appeal to a variety of non enthusiasts.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the reason that the "sport" version of the modulated throttle response wasn't standard was because the throttle was too sensitive for driving in less optimal weather conditions (ie., rain/sleek, etc.,)? Otherwise, yes, I'd rather have the "sport" version of the modulated throttle response, considering that the button is pressed almost everytime I'm in the car.
If thats the case, then the "sport" mapping should be the default. A standard switch to a softer response map should be included then for wet/icey roads. But to charge for the extra 200rpms and for a "historical" 911 like throttle response is friggin bold! Whats next??? "Hand Chrono" for a optional 911 like steering response?
When will customers call BS on this kind of crap on a 911 sports car? Its not a pretend sports car like a Z4 or M6.
Oct 6, 2005 5:21:33 AM
- SoCal Alan
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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
But to charge for the extra 200rpms and for a "historical" 911 like throttle response is friggin bold! Whats next??? "Hand Chrono" for a optional 911 like steering response?
Hey, that's a great idea! How about they charge $1500 for that one.
How about "Arm Chrono" for a shorter throw manual gear shift. Wait a minute, they did that one already.
Oct 6, 2005 5:29:05 AM
- JimFlat6
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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Quote:
SoCal Alan said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
But to charge for the extra 200rpms and for a "historical" 911 like throttle response is friggin bold! Whats next??? "Hand Chrono" for a optional 911 like steering response?
Hey, that's a great idea! How about they charge $1500 for that one.
Yes they are charging 750 USD for a 250 USD B&M shifter kit!
I want the deal to supply Porsche with Becker radios that are always 3 generations behind state of the art. Porsche really needs to drive a new Acura to discover what a modern car stereo and nav system is.
Oct 6, 2005 6:33:27 AM
- kauai_diver
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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Quote:
mcdelaug said:
A true sportscar does not need a "sport" button. Its sporting nature should be self-evident and complete in every aspect and at all times. Porsche's attitude SHOULD be: "this vehicle is the ultimate expression of a sportscar", NOT "well it's a rather sporty car, but if you pay extra for this button, we can make it SEEM even sportier."
To my eyes it is an insulting, crass attempt by Porsche to make money by selling the APPEARANCE of sportiness but not actually delivering the goods.
For $1000 you would be better served spending some time on the track learning car control. Having a cheesy gadget lumped on your dashboard and a few pennies of software etched into a EPROM somewhere for that money is ridiculous.
Sport Chrono is not only a gimmick, it's operation is not even consistent with what it is marketed for. No serious track enthusiast can rely on this device for track times-nothing should be distracting your eyes or hands in that environment.
I appreciate the PSM changes, but one should not be expected to pay extra for this. And every car has the ability to suspend PSM function to a certain extent.
I realize that some owners enjoy the different sensations the car creates for them when this button is pressed, and that's fine. Some people put fuzzy dice and sheepskin seat covers in their cars too-whatever does it for you. But please don't justify it as being some sort of legitimate performance enhancement, because that just doesn't bear analysis.
If you've read this far I suppose you've figured out I am NOT a fan of this thing. It will never be in any car that I own.
One more thing, if Sport Chrono is such a critical option in a sports car, why isn't it available on the CGT? Maybe because that vehicle really is a legitimate expression of Porsche's core values?
mcdelaug
Amen brother.
Damn now I gotta go change my sig.
Oct 6, 2005 8:45:32 AM
- Avantgarde
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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Not everyone wants the car to be driven at the 'edge' all the time. 
At most times the car is used as daily driver and its probably more comfortable to to drive at ease in the normal mode. At other times, we just want to have some fun, hit the sport button and Whooaaaaa! 
It just like buying two great cars for the price of one....without getting off the seat.
Cheers
At most times the car is used as daily driver and its probably more comfortable to to drive at ease in the normal mode. At other times, we just want to have some fun, hit the sport button and Whooaaaaa! It just like buying two great cars for the price of one....without getting off the seat.
Cheers
Oct 6, 2005 9:16:14 AM
- BC
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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Quote:
Avant said:
Not everyone wants the car to be driven at the 'edge' all the time.
It just like buying two great cars for the price of one....without getting off the seat.
Cheers
Yeah.. The thing about Porsches is you can use it as a everyday car. I agree that it is a good idea to be able to adjust the car to your driving style, but I also say that its BS that you have to pay for it.
Oct 6, 2005 9:30:28 AM
- andrea
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Oct 6, 2005 9:40:23 AM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Interesting views (very well expressed mcdelaug) on why some people here consider the sport chrono package to be nothing more than a gimmick. I totally respect your position.
I like the fact that a car might have a jekyll and hyde personality. It's calm and docile when you want that and on the edge and raw when you're in the mood for that.
Ferrari have a manettino knob on the F430 steering wheel which has around 5 settings all for different purposes. I wouldn't presume to be an expert on that particular switch. Perhaps others here have experience of it that they would want to share. But the idea of a switch or knob altering a variety of settings is, like it or not, the future of performance cars. It's coming to us from sports like F1.
No one has ever claimed that the sport chrono button actually improves performance. It rather enables one to get the existing performance capability out of the car more rapidly.
At the end of the day, debating this is fine but every driver of a 911 has to make up his/her own mind not by reading about it but by actually trying it to see if, for them, it really makes a difference or not.
I do believe though that this feature should have been offered as standard specification. It's a pity Porsche charges people for such things only so that they can waste 3 billion Euros buying 20% of VW.
I like the fact that a car might have a jekyll and hyde personality. It's calm and docile when you want that and on the edge and raw when you're in the mood for that.
Ferrari have a manettino knob on the F430 steering wheel which has around 5 settings all for different purposes. I wouldn't presume to be an expert on that particular switch. Perhaps others here have experience of it that they would want to share. But the idea of a switch or knob altering a variety of settings is, like it or not, the future of performance cars. It's coming to us from sports like F1.
No one has ever claimed that the sport chrono button actually improves performance. It rather enables one to get the existing performance capability out of the car more rapidly.
At the end of the day, debating this is fine but every driver of a 911 has to make up his/her own mind not by reading about it but by actually trying it to see if, for them, it really makes a difference or not.
I do believe though that this feature should have been offered as standard specification. It's a pity Porsche charges people for such things only so that they can waste 3 billion Euros buying 20% of VW.
Oct 6, 2005 9:46:57 AM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
I should add that in the UK, the 911 brochure actually states that the revised engine mapping improves throttle response. Under English law, this would be a contractual misrepresentation under the Misrepresentation Act 1967 if it were false and somebody purchased sport chrono relying upon such a misrepresentation. It would also be a false statement under the Trade Descriptions Act. Speaking only from the point of view of English law, advertisers cannot make knowingly false claims in their marketing. Hence any claims which are 'mere puff' are worded in a deliberately vague manner as to be unprovable either way.
Sorry to labour the legal aspects...
Sorry to labour the legal aspects...
Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Someone please dyno this thing on/off so we can compare the full power band and put this thing to rest.Quote:
MMD said:
...there's different little features of the car that only come with Sport Chrono.
I think the dealer can program all the Homelink, lights, locks, etc. that you can w/ Sport Chrono.
Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
I have to agree with mcdelaug 100%.
It should have never been there in the first place.
I had something similar in the M3 and I never used it, it was a nuisance.
I just placed an order for a c4s cabrio to arrive in january and unfortunately they did not allow for the -20mm
option on a cabrio otherwise I would have gladly done without the PASM as well!
Ciao,
Silvio
It should have never been there in the first place.
I had something similar in the M3 and I never used it, it was a nuisance.
I just placed an order for a c4s cabrio to arrive in january and unfortunately they did not allow for the -20mm
option on a cabrio otherwise I would have gladly done without the PASM as well!
Ciao,
Silvio
Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Since this Sport Chrono option is not that expensive, how much more can it add to driving pleasure? It is definitely not something like the x51 option which boost the hp to 381!
Think about it, in addition to the increase of throttle reponse, it also let you play with the lighting or door lock control. Seriously, what does that have to do with track driving?
Think about it, in addition to the increase of throttle reponse, it also let you play with the lighting or door lock control. Seriously, what does that have to do with track driving?
Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Many good points made on both sides of the argument. I agree it would be nice if the features were standard, but they're not, so we're forced to pay up or shut up. Seems there are a variety of other manufacturers who use the same practices so there's really no surprise that Porsche is doing it too.
As for me personally? I bought the Sport Chrono because I do like the timing functions and stopwatch on the dash, the suspension change is obvious in Sport mode, and with a drive-by-wire throttle, the quicker throttle response mapping is nice (and noticeable) when heel-and-toeing; just mashing the pedal "farther and faster" has no bearing when your attempting to drive the car at 10/10ths.
To each his own
As for me personally? I bought the Sport Chrono because I do like the timing functions and stopwatch on the dash, the suspension change is obvious in Sport mode, and with a drive-by-wire throttle, the quicker throttle response mapping is nice (and noticeable) when heel-and-toeing; just mashing the pedal "farther and faster" has no bearing when your attempting to drive the car at 10/10ths.
To each his own
Oct 6, 2005 2:20:05 PM
- Avantgarde
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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Quote:
GA5656 said:
There should not be any power difference since its only suppose to be a throttle remap.
i.e it will make no difference when you are mashing the throttle.
Oct 6, 2005 2:41:25 PM
- SoCal Alan
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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
"Sport button" on is what I use everytime I drive my 997S, which is everyday. Look at it from another point of view: would you rather have normal mode modulated such that the throttle response is retarded even more? It would require more effort on your foot to get the same response, of course. Imagine how that feels in a high-performance car.
I agree that the whole thing is a gimmick, but it is the setting I prefer (sport button on) because it gives you more immediate feedback. After getting use to "sport button" on, having it off reminds me of driving one of those old Mercedes 560SL's my ex-girlfriend use to have. It felt sluggish, even though I knew it had power.
I agree that the whole thing is a gimmick, but it is the setting I prefer (sport button on) because it gives you more immediate feedback. After getting use to "sport button" on, having it off reminds me of driving one of those old Mercedes 560SL's my ex-girlfriend use to have. It felt sluggish, even though I knew it had power.
Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
all has been said, some used arguments, some used arrogance.
For what is worth, i believe the original post was whether to add a sports chrono to a carrera S.
i think, and correct me if i m wrong that the man who asked this question, must be wondering so hard, only because he has found a ready-for-delivery Carrera S without sports chrono.
Otherwise, such a hard debate for so little money _1200 euro i think) is a waste of time...
People who opted for sport chrono, tend to praise it, those who havent opted tend to "delete" its importance.
Both its ok to me, BUT try not to Downsize the value of something(if it is already small) just because you dont have it in your car.
I agree, it should be standard on a 997, but for its MONEY it might be the only VALUE FOR MONEY extra that one can add to his 997, along with sport seats -1200 euro and short shift 550 euro.
you like it you take it, you dont then you leave it out.
JUST, don't try to make, all others that have it, look stupid.
BECAUSE thats a thing that is always "on" when talking about extras that cannot be added later.
i have it , i use it whenver i feel like it, sometimes often sometimes rarely. but i really thing its nonsense to debate on such a thing.
Everyone has the right to specify his own car. As for some that throw flames that sport chrono does not add any horsepower, well GUESS WHAT!!!!!!! WE KNEW THIS FROM THE BEGINNING!!!!!!
but we dont care because so does your little
-TERRACOTA INTERIOR
-BOSE SOUND SYSTEM
-SUNROOF
-LEATHER SUNVISORS
-CARBON-ALU-WOOD INTERIOR
AND SO ON!!!
the options that are offered by a manufacturer have also been targeting other aspects that performance.
after all its not the car that makes the driver, its the driver that makes the car...(at least in the old days)
For what is worth, i believe the original post was whether to add a sports chrono to a carrera S.
i think, and correct me if i m wrong that the man who asked this question, must be wondering so hard, only because he has found a ready-for-delivery Carrera S without sports chrono.
Otherwise, such a hard debate for so little money _1200 euro i think) is a waste of time...
People who opted for sport chrono, tend to praise it, those who havent opted tend to "delete" its importance.
Both its ok to me, BUT try not to Downsize the value of something(if it is already small) just because you dont have it in your car.
I agree, it should be standard on a 997, but for its MONEY it might be the only VALUE FOR MONEY extra that one can add to his 997, along with sport seats -1200 euro and short shift 550 euro.
you like it you take it, you dont then you leave it out.
JUST, don't try to make, all others that have it, look stupid.
BECAUSE thats a thing that is always "on" when talking about extras that cannot be added later.
i have it , i use it whenver i feel like it, sometimes often sometimes rarely. but i really thing its nonsense to debate on such a thing.
Everyone has the right to specify his own car. As for some that throw flames that sport chrono does not add any horsepower, well GUESS WHAT!!!!!!! WE KNEW THIS FROM THE BEGINNING!!!!!!
but we dont care because so does your little
-TERRACOTA INTERIOR
-BOSE SOUND SYSTEM
-SUNROOF
-LEATHER SUNVISORS
-CARBON-ALU-WOOD INTERIOR
AND SO ON!!!
the options that are offered by a manufacturer have also been targeting other aspects that performance.
after all its not the car that makes the driver, its the driver that makes the car...(at least in the old days)
Oct 6, 2005 9:12:44 PM
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PS CA
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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
DILLINGER,
Thanks for the kick in the head... You're absolutely right. If this option didn't remap the throttle, then it would be the best option there is for the money. It would time routs/trips, customize lights, locks and whatever else the thing does. The minute it claims some kind of throttle improvement, all hell breaks loose from those who don't have it. It's a cool option that costs almost nothing to add.
WHY DIDN'T I ADD IT!!!
I do think there is a true performance value with the Tiptronic. There has to be unless you shift yourself all the time.
Thanks for the kick in the head...
You're absolutely right. If this option didn't remap the throttle, then it would be the best option there is for the money. It would time routs/trips, customize lights, locks and whatever else the thing does. The minute it claims some kind of throttle improvement, all hell breaks loose from those who don't have it. It's a cool option that costs almost nothing to add. WHY DIDN'T I ADD IT!!!
I do think there is a true performance value with the Tiptronic. There has to be unless you shift yourself all the time.
Oct 7, 2005 1:57:15 AM
- Avantgarde
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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Quote:
DILINGER said:
JUST, don't try to make, all others that have it, look stupid.
BECAUSE thats a thing that is always "on" when talking about extras that cannot be added later.
Dillinger, I feel smarter already , at least I know I'll never regret it. 
If you have it, flaunt it
Oct 7, 2005 3:03:55 AM
- kauai_diver
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Oct 7, 2005 3:15:35 AM
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PS CA
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Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
Quote:
kauai_diver said:Quote:
PS CA said:Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
What is "Model Delete"?
I think it is when you remove the letters "Carrera" from the rear.
Are you sure? I thought it was the removal of the "S" if you got the 997S.
It is the removal of whatever model it would normally say across the back; Carrera, Carrera S, Carrera 4, Turbo, etc. The model delete option removes the entire designation from the rear deck.
Here is how it is shown on the Porsche order guide:
498 Delete Model Designation $0
It is a no cost option.
Phil
Re: Carrera S without Sport Chrono
I only belittle those stupid enough to think that because it improves throttle reponse it would make the car quicker? If that person used just a fraction of the logic they must surely have (ie clever enough to afford the car in the first place) then they would see what a ridiculous claim that is.
Does anyone seriously think that on a track for example that with 'sport' engaged because the throttle does not have to travel so far for a given increase in revs the car will be quicker? If so you clearly know nothing about driving !
Does anyone seriously think that on a track for example that with 'sport' engaged because the throttle does not have to travel so far for a given increase in revs the car will be quicker? If so you clearly know nothing about driving !
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