Crown
Board: Porsche - Cayman
Language: English
Region: Worldwide
Close
CloseForum - Thread
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Cannibals and Cayman aside,its fun to second guess Porsches
product strategies.
Only Porsche has the nerve to create their own competition
for both upward seeking Boxster fans and not quite so sure 997 buyers. Its a brilliant sales idea really.
It would be interesting if Porsche looked at the simplicity
of the Lotus Elise and said we can do that better or if they decided to build the Panamera in Alabama next to the Mercedes plant so the car would qualify for NASCAR. Don't
hold your breath for either of those to happen.
product strategies.
Only Porsche has the nerve to create their own competition
for both upward seeking Boxster fans and not quite so sure 997 buyers. Its a brilliant sales idea really.
It would be interesting if Porsche looked at the simplicity
of the Lotus Elise and said we can do that better or if they decided to build the Panamera in Alabama next to the Mercedes plant so the car would qualify for NASCAR. Don't
hold your breath for either of those to happen.
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
It would be interesting if Porsche looked at the simplicity
of the Lotus Elise and said we can do that better
Agreed - a 2,000lb Elise with German built and design would be great (maybe a bit more torque and headroom added in for good measure too
).
Oct 8, 2005 5:33:41 AM
- SoCalHoosier
- Veteran
-
- Loc: California , United States
- Posts: 896, Gallery
- Registered on: Jun 13, 2003
- Reply to: AJ
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Quote:
AJ said:
I think that Porsche should go the route that Mercedes has gone, which is to offer every engine in every model, it really doesn't cost more and you defintely keep the competition and tuners out. And so what, Porsche can make even more money. Give the people what they want. If they don't want it cancel it after the fact. Mercedes sells the 55 (476hp) motor in the E S SL CLS CL and even the G. So what if only 10 people buy the G55 but it might keep a driver in the fold. Mercedes got over the notion that the most expensive class only gets the high output engine along time ago. Porsche should learn something from this, if someone wants to put the GT3 motor into a Cayman or even Boxster and pay an extra $30000, why not? It is not like they are losing money on it and if they were concerned about having an expensive boxster, they don't seem to care about that either as they offer paint/leather to sample on those models as well.
Totally agree with these statements. The only thing I can surmise from them not doing just that is that it isn't as profitable.
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
It would be interesting if Porsche looked at the simplicity
of the Lotus Elise and said we can do that better
Agreed - a 2,000lb Elise with German built and design would be great (maybe a bit more torque and headroom added in for good measure too
Jim and Grant,
Totally agree, but it's a pipe dream I'm affraid. Even if we saw a Boxster RS, it would be around $100k most likely.
Having owned an Elise for 9 months now, it has totally changed my perspective on sports cars. The sense of connectedness and feedback is superb, and worth the compromise IMO.
But Lotus is a company with limited resources. The picked the best engine they could get their hands on, sometimes resort to parts bin engineering, and lack some development money for small details. Lotus could do better if they had more money. So certainly Porsche could do better as well, but I don't believe they have the same philosophy.
Realistically, very few people want such a car, especially Porsche customers. Why would you want such a car when a 3000 .lbs Cayman is much more refined and is relatively fast on a high speed track? It doesn't really make sense for most people.
But Lotus will keep this market alive for some time to come. I would certainly rather have a 240hp Exige than a Cayman S.
- J
Oct 8, 2005 8:07:40 PM
- Justin
- Veteran
-
- Loc: San Diego, CA, USA
- Posts: 979, Gallery
- Registered on: Jan 12, 2003
- Reply to: SoCalHoosier
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
I think one reason Porsche cannot just offer every flat-6 in every Boxster or 911 is that there is far more overlap in customer base between the two models than there is at Mercedes. One could argue that you are just losing customers to yourself, but it seems best to lead customers into a 911 unless they cannot afford it. Then the Boxster exists as a fall back.
A Cayman with the GT3 engine would have to cost less than the 911 GT3, but the Cayman might be faster. Now you have marketing issues. Is the Boxster the lower end model or are they on the same level, and you choose between which layout you prefer?
Secondly, Porsche seems to be using the 911 for racing and not the Boxster, so there seems to be more motivation to offer the 911 in the most racey of trims. Supposidely the 911 is designed for racing while the Boxster is not.
- J
A Cayman with the GT3 engine would have to cost less than the 911 GT3, but the Cayman might be faster. Now you have marketing issues. Is the Boxster the lower end model or are they on the same level, and you choose between which layout you prefer?
Secondly, Porsche seems to be using the 911 for racing and not the Boxster, so there seems to be more motivation to offer the 911 in the most racey of trims. Supposidely the 911 is designed for racing while the Boxster is not.
- J
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Per Justin: "But Lotus is a company with limited resources. The picked the best engine they could get their hands on, sometimes resort to parts bin engineering, and lack some development money for small details. Lotus could do better if they had more money."
Quite true, and the same could have been written about Lotus 30 years ago about the Europa and Elan. I believe it's more a matter of philosophy than capital.
Quite true, and the same could have been written about Lotus 30 years ago about the Europa and Elan. I believe it's more a matter of philosophy than capital.
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Quote:
DaveC said:
Per Justin: "But Lotus is a company with limited resources. The picked the best engine they could get their hands on, sometimes resort to parts bin engineering, and lack some development money for small details. Lotus could do better if they had more money."
Quite true, and the same could have been written about Lotus 30 years ago about the Europa and Elan. I believe it's more a matter of philosophy than capital.
I think capital is "cause", and philosophy is just "effect".
However, since I like the philosophy, I'm not so unhappy that it's cause has persisted for over 40 years (not just 30).
One day I'll put my money where my mouth is and buy a Lotus.
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
DaveC said:
Per Justin: "But Lotus is a company with limited resources. The picked the best engine they could get their hands on, sometimes resort to parts bin engineering, and lack some development money for small details. Lotus could do better if they had more money."
Quite true, and the same could have been written about Lotus 30 years ago about the Europa and Elan. I believe it's more a matter of philosophy than capital.
I think capital is "cause", and philosophy is just "effect".
However, since I like the philosophy, I'm not so unhappy that it's cause has persisted for over 40 years (not just 30).
One day I'll put my money where my mouth is and buy a Lotus.
I remember my father and I meeting and talking to Stirling Moss in 1962, when I was teenager, and asking him, "What's the best handling sports car?". He said, "Without a doubt the Lotus Elite, as long as you don't mind bits of the car falling off now and then...."
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Quote:
964C2 said:
I remember my father and I meeting and talking to Stirling Moss in 1962, when I was teenager, and asking him, "What's the best handling sports car?". He said, "Without a doubt the Lotus Elite, as long as you don't mind bits of the car falling off now and then...."
The "bits falling now and then" were probably a deliberate part of Colin Chapman's weight reduction measures.
I guess your meeting with Moss must have been before his serious crash at Goodwood that same year, because he might not have been so inclined to make jokes about bits falling off cars after it for the rest of that year.
Oct 8, 2005 11:06:19 PM
- LowPolarMoment
- Senior
-
- Loc: Boca Raton, FL
- Posts: 725, Gallery
- Registered on: May 22, 2005
- Reply to: 964C2
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Quote:Back in the 60's, they used to say that the only Lotus that you knew was going to stay together was the one Jim Clark was driving that day.
964C2 said:I remember my father and I meeting and talking to Stirling Moss in 1962, when I was teenager, and asking him, "What's the best handling sports car?". He said, "Without a doubt the Lotus Elite, as long as you don't mind bits of the car falling off now and then...."
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Again you are correct Fritz. Chapman would not use 4 fasteners when 2 would suffice. The perfect race car for him is one that falls apart right after crossing the finish.
I suppose Lotus could make their auto making business more profitable by broadening the audience of its models. We'll see how mainstream the next models become.
Porsche is probably the only automotive company not to employ Lotus for their engineering capability, which is the most profitable portion of Lotus. Now that Porsche has a 20% stake in VW, and VW is in talks to buy Lotus parent company Proton, I wonder where this will leave Lotus in 5-10 years.
- J
I suppose Lotus could make their auto making business more profitable by broadening the audience of its models. We'll see how mainstream the next models become.
Porsche is probably the only automotive company not to employ Lotus for their engineering capability, which is the most profitable portion of Lotus. Now that Porsche has a 20% stake in VW, and VW is in talks to buy Lotus parent company Proton, I wonder where this will leave Lotus in 5-10 years.
- J
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
To pick up the Elise thread again, I did have an Elise for a while, sold it during the summer. I did love the handling and steering, but the brakes were spongy, pedal placement awful, and the engine was buzzy, plus it was impossible to get out of. I'd always wanted a Lotus since I saw the Bond flick "The Spy Who Loved Me" as a kid, but for me it was a somewhat disappointing experience. I'd give Lotus another chance if they worked out the kinks in the this car though. It DID have very redeeming qualities when driven extremely hard. Like many I'm hoping Porsche will develop a truly lightweight, mid-engined car that places priority on the driving experience rather than luxury -- one with the engineering we've come to expect from Porsche, but without all the unncessary frills. I still think the Cayman is too heavy, but the proof will be in the driving.
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
You've hit some of the more annoying parts of this car.
- pedal placement can be fixed entirely. For some reason they do not deliver it adjusted correctly. Alternatively you can buy a pedal pad from Sector111. Heel-toe is now quite easy.
- Spongy pedal can be helped somewhat with an adjustment of the brake pushrod and a pad upgrade, but still not up to how the non-power brake Elises felt in Europe. I suspect the root of the problem is in the Toyota master cylinder.
- nothing you can do about the engine...maybe supercharge it.
- getting in and out is second nature to me now, but it's not something 99% of the public enjoys.
So some things are very easy to fix, which makes me wonder why the car isn't delivered that way from the factory. Other things are just Lotus being Lotus...take what you can get. Makes you wonder what they could do if they could choose whatever they wanted for the car.
My feeling is that the Cayman will drive just fine, but you can never really replicate the feel afforded by the lack of weight. Even the U.S. Elise is a bit heavy. Race spec Elises are probably 400 .lbs lighter in Europe with a different motor/tranny.
- J
- pedal placement can be fixed entirely. For some reason they do not deliver it adjusted correctly. Alternatively you can buy a pedal pad from Sector111. Heel-toe is now quite easy.
- Spongy pedal can be helped somewhat with an adjustment of the brake pushrod and a pad upgrade, but still not up to how the non-power brake Elises felt in Europe. I suspect the root of the problem is in the Toyota master cylinder.
- nothing you can do about the engine...maybe supercharge it.
- getting in and out is second nature to me now, but it's not something 99% of the public enjoys.
So some things are very easy to fix, which makes me wonder why the car isn't delivered that way from the factory. Other things are just Lotus being Lotus...take what you can get. Makes you wonder what they could do if they could choose whatever they wanted for the car.
My feeling is that the Cayman will drive just fine, but you can never really replicate the feel afforded by the lack of weight. Even the U.S. Elise is a bit heavy. Race spec Elises are probably 400 .lbs lighter in Europe with a different motor/tranny.
- J
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Quote:
dsts6 said:Ummm...would'nt worrry about what the magazines get, it depends on the day the driver the everything. I really don't thing a boxster could in any way outhandle a cayman. Hoepfully someone will do a side by side test, then its a proper scientific experiement.
(A way back in the thread - sorry - re: Boxster vs Cayman slalom speed)
It was probably down to the differences in the suspension components or something...
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Quote:
Justin said:
- Spongy pedal can be helped somewhat with an adjustment of the brake pushrod and a pad upgrade, but still not up to how the non-power brake Elises felt in Europe. I suspect the root of the problem is in the Toyota master cylinder.
A spongy pedal can be caused by flexible brake hoses which expand too much under hydraulic pressure. The power assisted system in USA cars will have a different hose layout to the Euro systems, I would guess, explaining the difference. I wonder if an improvement could be achieved by substituting higher-grade brake hoses for some of the standard production ones?
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Quote:
wtsnet said:
(A way back in the thread - sorry - re: Boxster vs Cayman slalom speed)
It was probably down to the differences in the suspension components or something...
Sorry for the hijack!
A stiffer suspension doesn't always mean a faster slalom time does it? On a related note, I've seen a car with stickier tires slalom slower than teh same car on tires with less grip. Nimbleness vs. grip?
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Quote:
fritz said:
A spongy pedal can be caused by flexible brake hoses which expand too much under hydraulic pressure. The power assisted system in USA cars will have a different hose layout to the Euro systems, I would guess, explaining the difference. I wonder if an improvement could be achieved by substituting higher-grade brake hoses for some of the standard production ones?
Part of the problem is that even at low heat levels, the pedal still has a lot of travel before it does anything at all. The brake pushrod adjustment helps this part somewhat. The brakes do get a little firmer with heat. Does this suggest it's somewhat the pad's fault? A friend of mine with the best brake feel of all the Elise's I have driven has different pads and stainless steel lines, so it sounds like both probably help.
- J
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Quote:
Justin said:
Part of the problem is that even at low heat levels, the pedal still has a lot of travel before it does anything at all. The brake pushrod adjustment helps this part somewhat. The brakes do get a little firmer with heat. Does this suggest it's somewhat the pad's fault? A friend of mine with the best brake feel of all the Elise's I have driven has different pads and stainless steel lines, so it sounds like both probably help.
Hi Justin,
Assuming you are using racing brake fluid, changing it fairly regularly after heavy track use, and can rule out the possibility that there is some air or water trapped in the circuit, I guess the next step would be to try the type of pads your friend uses, if they are meant for your user profile, i. e., track days.
(Even an unsuitable pad would not explain long "free" pedal travel though. Can you rule out worn wheel bearings or warped rotors causing the pads to be "knocked back" between braking phases?).
If changing pads results in an improvement, that's good. If it is still not as good as your friend's car, then the next logical step would appear be the heavy duty braided stainless steel hoses. But that starts to get a little more expensive. Do you have any contact to other Elise track day fans whose experience you could benefit from?
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
One thing I didn't mention about the Elise is steering feedback, which I felt felt was great but still not as good as the Boxster. Certainly, the lack of power steering gave a wonderful feeling when unwinding coming out of turn, but the road feel was not quite as good as I thought it would be. In fact, the entire experience of driving the US Elise was not quite up to that of driving the Euro Spec demo I drove a year or so before I got my car. As just mentioned, the non-servoed brakes on the Euro spec car were just fanstastic, though the Toyota gearbox on the US car was an improvement IMHO.
I just read the R&T article on the Cayman, which was not as descriptive of the car's dynamic abilities as I'd wished. I don't doubt the Cayman is a better performer than the Boxter, but I can't wait to find out if it is something one can actually feel. Will the steering and handling really better that of the Boxster experientially? As far as weight is concerned, I think it is possible for a manufacturer to mask extra weight (on a subjective level) with chassis development. For instance, one of my most beloved cars was a 740i sport, which weighed in excess of 4000lbs, yet I tracked the car and the cornering and turn-in were just remarkable. Perhaps the Cayman will drive much lighter than it is. I guess we'll know soon. Thanks.
I just read the R&T article on the Cayman, which was not as descriptive of the car's dynamic abilities as I'd wished. I don't doubt the Cayman is a better performer than the Boxter, but I can't wait to find out if it is something one can actually feel. Will the steering and handling really better that of the Boxster experientially? As far as weight is concerned, I think it is possible for a manufacturer to mask extra weight (on a subjective level) with chassis development. For instance, one of my most beloved cars was a 740i sport, which weighed in excess of 4000lbs, yet I tracked the car and the cornering and turn-in were just remarkable. Perhaps the Cayman will drive much lighter than it is. I guess we'll know soon. Thanks.
Re: November Road & Track tests Cayman S
Quote:
Justin said:Quote:
wtsnet said:
(A way back in the thread - sorry - re: Boxster vs Cayman slalom speed)
It was probably down to the differences in the suspension components or something...
Sorry for the hijack!
A stiffer suspension doesn't always mean a faster slalom time does it? On a related note, I've seen a car with stickier tires slalom slower than teh same car on tires with less grip. Nimbleness vs. grip?
No, siffer suspension doesn't always mean a faster slalom time. An example that comes to mind is Volvo's S60R with active suspension. In the siffest mode - advanced sport - the car was slower through the slalom course. I was there when they tested it, and also experienced it first hand. If the setting is too stiff you can't get the most out of the tyres.
Forum
About Rennteam | Help | Terms of use | Privacy Policy | Support | Contact | Imprint | Archive
Powered by
Community
and
