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    Sep 29, 2005 12:07:12 PM

    sevoman
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    sevoman
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    dry sump lubrication

    Can someone enlighten me about dry sump lubrication in various models - I have heard that it is only present in some cars like GT3, GT2 and turbos but not in "regular" carreras and boxsters. A dealer here which sells only second hand Pcars says that it all current models have dry sump lube - is that true? Does it matter???

    Sep 29, 2005 1:22:02 PM

    sdy284
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    Reply to: sevoman

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    only the GT3, GT2, & turbo models have dry sump (pretty sure the turbos do anyway) and dry sump is recommended if you're going to be tracking your car on SLICKS, otherwise...i wouldn't be to concerned about it

    click here to see --> How Dry Sump Works

    Sep 29, 2005 2:03:06 PM

    sevoman
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    Reply to: sdy284

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    the 997 information book says that the carrera and carrera S have "integrated dry sump lubrication". Why is it not regarded as dry sump lube? I am confused

    Sep 29, 2005 2:44:45 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: sevoman

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    Quote:
    sevoman said:
    the 997 information book says that the carrera and carrera S have "integrated dry sump lubrication". Why is it not regarded as dry sump lube? I am confused


    Integrated drysump is just marketing jargon to make up for the fact than EVERY 911 built between 1964 and 1998 had a real dry sump, but they started to build the MUCH cheaper wet sump motors for the Boxster and 996. The integrated dry sump is just a baffled oil pan - it's still wet. Aside from its superior oiling under high g loads, a dry sump gives more power, since the crankshaft is not spinning in a pool of oil.

    Sep 29, 2005 2:56:23 PM

    DaveC
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    I think what disturbs me most is that Porsche just can't bring themselves to call it a "modified wet sump" and leave it at that. From a manufacturing and cost standpoint I can understand why they made the design choices they did when M96 was conceived, but let's not call a dog a duck. If anything the euphemisms come off as a something of marketing charade attempting to pass off a fake as the genuine article.

    Sep 29, 2005 3:25:50 PM

    964C2
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    sevoman said:
    the 997 information book says that the carrera and carrera S have "integrated dry sump lubrication". Why is it not regarded as dry sump lube? I am confused


    Integrated drysump is just marketing jargon to make up for the fact than EVERY 911 built between 1964 and 1998 had a real dry sump, but they started to build the MUCH cheaper wet sump motors for the Boxster and 996. The integrated dry sump is just a baffled oil pan - it's still wet. Aside from its superior oiling under high g loads, a dry sump gives more power, since the crankshaft is not spinning in a pool of oil.


    Plus the aircooled 911's needed a true dry sump system with 11 quarts of oil to circulate, because this was a major component of engine cooling.

    Sep 29, 2005 3:33:34 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: 964C2

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    Quote:
    964C2 said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    sevoman said:
    the 997 information book says that the carrera and carrera S have "integrated dry sump lubrication". Why is it not regarded as dry sump lube? I am confused


    Integrated drysump is just marketing jargon to make up for the fact than EVERY 911 built between 1964 and 1998 had a real dry sump, but they started to build the MUCH cheaper wet sump motors for the Boxster and 996. The integrated dry sump is just a baffled oil pan - it's still wet. Aside from its superior oiling under high g loads, a dry sump gives more power, since the crankshaft is not spinning in a pool of oil.


    Plus the aircooled 911's needed a true dry sump system with 11 quarts of oil to circulate, because this was a major component of engine cooling.


    Actually, the Porsche wet sumps still have almost this same amount of oil. Most wet sump motors have 5 quarts and the M96 has about double this...

    BTW, even the new Corvette Z06 has a REAL dry sump...

    Sep 29, 2005 5:32:33 PM

    MJSpeed
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    Who would've thunk it...a racing derived 'Vette and not so for the Porsche 911...what have we come to???

    Sep 30, 2005 1:11:44 AM

    TX 911
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    Reply to: MJSpeed

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    According to Paul Frere in the book "The Porsche 911 Story", the M96 lubrication system is a dry-sump system. The difference from previous 911 models is that the oil tank is under and attached to, but separated from, the crankcase, allowing oil to drain into the tank without the need for a scavenge pump. It is not clear from his description that the crankshaft spins in the oil tank, and in fact, seems to imply otherwise. Maybe someone can shed some light?

    It's all semantics, but I don't have a big objection to Porsche calling this an "integrated (i.e. oil tank not separate from crankcase) dry sump".

    Sep 30, 2005 1:37:08 AM

    mcdelaug
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    Reply to: TX 911

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    Honesty should always trump marketing. No matter what Porsche wants to call it, the M96 has, at best, a cleverly designed wet sump. Now, whether any of the drivers that worry about this will ever really NEED a dry sump is another matter!

    mcdelaug

    Sep 30, 2005 5:11:19 PM

    964C2
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    Reply to: TX 911

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    Quote:
    TX 911 said:
    According to Paul Frere in the book "The Porsche 911 Story", the M96 lubrication system is a dry-sump system. The difference from previous 911 models is that the oil tank is under and attached to, but separated from, the crankcase, allowing oil to drain into the tank without the need for a scavenge pump. It is not clear from his description that the crankshaft spins in the oil tank, and in fact, seems to imply otherwise. Maybe someone can shed some light?

    It's all semantics, but I don't have a big objection to Porsche calling this an "integrated (i.e. oil tank not separate from crankcase) dry sump".


    A "true" dry-sump system always has a scavenge pump, this prevents oil starvation at higher G-loads when cornering!!!

    Sep 30, 2005 10:29:02 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: 964C2

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    Quote:
    964C2 said:
    Quote:
    TX 911 said:
    According to Paul Frere in the book "The Porsche 911 Story", the M96 lubrication system is a dry-sump system. The difference from previous 911 models is that the oil tank is under and attached to, but separated from, the crankcase, allowing oil to drain into the tank without the need for a scavenge pump. It is not clear from his description that the crankshaft spins in the oil tank, and in fact, seems to imply otherwise. Maybe someone can shed some light?

    It's all semantics, but I don't have a big objection to Porsche calling this an "integrated (i.e. oil tank not separate from crankcase) dry sump".


    A "true" dry-sump system always has a scavenge pump, this prevents oil starvation at higher G-loads when cornering!!!


    Yes, and the scavenge pump creates a vacuum in the motor (removes oil), so that there is less drag on the crank. Placing the oil tank (pan) below the motor also raises the motor's center of gravity (bad for handling).

    Sep 30, 2005 11:14:52 PM

    TX 911
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    I acknowledge that an external dry sump is better for high-G cornering. I'm just saying it's not clear to me that the M96 system is the same as a wet sump.

    Grant, why would the oil tank below the motor RAISE the center of gravity? Also, are you saying the crankshaft on the M96 is physically turning in the oil pan? This isn't clear to me based on the book I referenced.

    Oct 1, 2005 4:27:38 PM

    ElTonioni Offline
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    Reply to: TX 911

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    From the Porshce website:

    This race-proven technology ensures a reliable supply of oil while reducing engine temperatures.

    Oil is pumped to the lubrication points in the engine from an internal reservoir in the block. This arrangement has a number of benefits compared with conventional external tanks. Two additional oil pumps - one in each bank of cylinders - then 'scavenge' the oil to the reservoir.

    During this circuit, the oil is passed through a system of cylindrical containers, known as swirlpots, where any unwanted gases are removed. This 'defoaming' process restores the oil's lubricating properties and helps to maintain pressure in the self-adjusting tappets. Without it, the tappets could not function properly and both performance and emissions would be impaired.

    To further reduce temperatures, each piston crown is sprayed with twin jets of oil from the main lubrication circuit.

    In general, each cylinder receives a consistent supply of oil, regardless of gravitational forces. The engine is therefore inherently reliable in even the most demanding track conditions.

    Oil pressure and temperature are clearly displayed in the instrument cluster. The oil level can be checked from inside the car via the central instrument display.

    Oct 10, 2005 9:28:14 PM

    LowPolarMoment
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    Reply to: ElTonioni

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    Having a crankshaft spin 7200 rpm submerged in oil can't be what's happening. Think of what an egg beater does at 300 rpm.

    Oct 10, 2005 10:48:27 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: TX 911

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    Quote:
    TX 911 said:
    According to Paul Frere in the book "The Porsche 911 Story", the M96 lubrication system is a dry-sump system.



    The M96 and M97 engine do not have a "true" dry sump lubrification system. Period. The "integrated" dry sump claim is just a clever Porsche marketing thing.
    Porsche doesn't really like it too much when people (or journalists) talk about the differences because they actually prefer people to think that the M96 engine is the same bullet-proof engine like on the 993/GT1/996 GT3/Turbo/GT2. It isn't, the M96 engine has actually been born out of a necessity to save a lot of money, in the beginning this engine was "crap" in my opinion. Starting with the 996 facelift and the slightly stronger version, Porsche started to improve the M96 engine, wiping out some design flaws and glitches and making it more and more reliable. With the M97 engine, the M96 finally found a worthy successor, the M97 engine is still based on the "integrated" dry sump design but it has a lot of redesigned and improved parts, making it pretty reliable, powerful and finally worth calling it a "true" Porsche engine.

    If you want to learn about the difference of the M96 and the 996 GT3/GT2/Turbo engine, just ask your dealer how much a GT3 engine costs and how much a M96 engine costs. You'll get the surprise of your life.

    Oct 11, 2005 1:26:00 AM

    GM AustinM
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    Reply to: TX 911

    Re: dry sump lubrication

    Quote:
    Grant, why would the oil tank below the motor RAISE the center of gravity?



    The oil pan needs adequate ground clearance so the engine must be high enough to allow that clearance. Everything else being equal, if you use a dry sump system the oil collection point doesn't have to be nearly so deep so the engine can be mounted much lower; possibly 3-4 inches lower.
     
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