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Re: AMG continues hp war?
I'm really surprised to hear they are planning to put the 6.3 into the SLK, CLK, etc.
I was under the impression that the 6.3, with its higher revving characteristics, would replace the 5.5 supercharged engines and give more linear power delivery. I had no idea they were going to turbocharge it in the future.
I was expecting cars like the SLK or CLK to get an updated version of the current NA 5.5 with around 420hp.
If they can make a 500+hp SLK and sell it at a competitive price, that would truly be amazing.
I was under the impression that the 6.3, with its higher revving characteristics, would replace the 5.5 supercharged engines and give more linear power delivery. I had no idea they were going to turbocharge it in the future.
I was expecting cars like the SLK or CLK to get an updated version of the current NA 5.5 with around 420hp.
If they can make a 500+hp SLK and sell it at a competitive price, that would truly be amazing.
Re: AMG continues hp war?
I'm really surprised to hear they are planning to put the 6.3 into the SLK, CLK, etc.
I was under the impression that the 6.3, with its higher revving characteristics, would replace the 5.5 supercharged engines and give more linear power delivery. I had no idea they were going to turbocharge it in the future.
I was expecting cars like the SLK or CLK to get an updated version of the current NA 5.5 with around 420hp.
If they can make a 500+hp SLK and sell it at a competitive price, that would truly be amazing.
I was under the impression that the 6.3, with its higher revving characteristics, would replace the 5.5 supercharged engines and give more linear power delivery. I had no idea they were going to turbocharge it in the future.
I was expecting cars like the SLK or CLK to get an updated version of the current NA 5.5 with around 420hp.
If they can make a 500+hp SLK and sell it at a competitive price, that would truly be amazing.
Sep 17, 2005 10:23:11 PM
- Ferdie
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- Reply to: SoCal Alan
Re: AMG continues hp war?
The 997 TTs are far from being rivalled by some CLK or SLK models.
It's more the Carrera models which should be rather identical in terms of price which would have a tough job. I expect the powerkit model to run to 200 kph in 14 to 15 sec., an SLK 63 should be slightly less!
This still doesn't persuade me yet to get such a car over the 997 S!
It's more the Carrera models which should be rather identical in terms of price which would have a tough job. I expect the powerkit model to run to 200 kph in 14 to 15 sec., an SLK 63 should be slightly less!
This still doesn't persuade me yet to get such a car over the 997 S!
Sep 17, 2005 10:23:11 PM
- Ferdie
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- Loc: Europe , Germany
- Posts: 8234, Gallery
- Registered on: Jul 2, 2004
- Reply to: SoCal Alan
Re: AMG continues hp war?
The 997 TTs are far from being rivalled by some CLK or SLK models.
It's more the Carrera models which should be rather identical in terms of price which would have a tough job. I expect the powerkit model to run to 200 kph in 14 to 15 sec., an SLK 63 should be slightly less!
This still doesn't persuade me yet to get such a car over the 997 S!
It's more the Carrera models which should be rather identical in terms of price which would have a tough job. I expect the powerkit model to run to 200 kph in 14 to 15 sec., an SLK 63 should be slightly less!
This still doesn't persuade me yet to get such a car over the 997 S!
Sep 19, 2005 5:12:54 PM
- AJVIP
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- Reply to: easy_rider911
Re: AMG continues hp war?
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
With Audi, BMW, Mercedes (& AMG) forever upping the stakes in this game, where does this leave Porsche ?
Boxster: 240bhp
Boxster S: 280bhp
Cayman S: 295 bhp
997: 325 bhp
997S: 355 bhp
997S with X51: 381 bhp
These figures look dreadful. Although I am the first to say that Porsche cars handle so much better than other cars so they can make up for the hp deficiency around a track, in a straight line Porsches don't stand a chance. It will be TOTALLY depressing for a guy in a 997S getting overtaken by a housewife in a ML63 AMG taking the kids to school/going shopping.
Wake up Porsche AG please! We need more power and more torque!
Divide the weight of the vehicle by the HP amount. Porsches were never about having the most HP or torque, being the fastest from a standstill....put a Porsche against one of those 3 ton Mercedes tanks on a twisty road and we'll see how things turn out
Sep 19, 2005 5:12:54 PM
- AJVIP
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Re: AMG continues hp war?
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
With Audi, BMW, Mercedes (& AMG) forever upping the stakes in this game, where does this leave Porsche ?
Boxster: 240bhp
Boxster S: 280bhp
Cayman S: 295 bhp
997: 325 bhp
997S: 355 bhp
997S with X51: 381 bhp
These figures look dreadful. Although I am the first to say that Porsche cars handle so much better than other cars so they can make up for the hp deficiency around a track, in a straight line Porsches don't stand a chance. It will be TOTALLY depressing for a guy in a 997S getting overtaken by a housewife in a ML63 AMG taking the kids to school/going shopping.
Wake up Porsche AG please! We need more power and more torque!
Divide the weight of the vehicle by the HP amount. Porsches were never about having the most HP or torque, being the fastest from a standstill....put a Porsche against one of those 3 ton Mercedes tanks on a twisty road and we'll see how things turn out
Re: AMG continues hp war?
I think what bothers most people is not the HP differences but in what ends up being value differences.
Back in the day most manufacturers differentiated themselves with quality/safety advantages. Today everyone builds a great car.
With a supercharged Benz, or a Chrysler 300C your getting a good car AND a ton of HP - whether you can use it (or know how to use it or not). With Porsche, what do you get? You get a great car, but the value is where Porsche is losing it these days. Yes most of you can say that in a curve or on the track the Porsche wins, but how many buyers can really use that? The value for the Porsche's superiority on the track is there BUT no one (or at least very very few) can use that inherent value. So if you can't use it why pay for it?
Back in the day most manufacturers differentiated themselves with quality/safety advantages. Today everyone builds a great car.
With a supercharged Benz, or a Chrysler 300C your getting a good car AND a ton of HP - whether you can use it (or know how to use it or not). With Porsche, what do you get? You get a great car, but the value is where Porsche is losing it these days. Yes most of you can say that in a curve or on the track the Porsche wins, but how many buyers can really use that? The value for the Porsche's superiority on the track is there BUT no one (or at least very very few) can use that inherent value. So if you can't use it why pay for it?
Re: AMG continues hp war?
I think what bothers most people is not the HP differences but in what ends up being value differences.
Back in the day most manufacturers differentiated themselves with quality/safety advantages. Today everyone builds a great car.
With a supercharged Benz, or a Chrysler 300C your getting a good car AND a ton of HP - whether you can use it (or know how to use it or not). With Porsche, what do you get? You get a great car, but the value is where Porsche is losing it these days. Yes most of you can say that in a curve or on the track the Porsche wins, but how many buyers can really use that? The value for the Porsche's superiority on the track is there BUT no one (or at least very very few) can use that inherent value. So if you can't use it why pay for it?
Back in the day most manufacturers differentiated themselves with quality/safety advantages. Today everyone builds a great car.
With a supercharged Benz, or a Chrysler 300C your getting a good car AND a ton of HP - whether you can use it (or know how to use it or not). With Porsche, what do you get? You get a great car, but the value is where Porsche is losing it these days. Yes most of you can say that in a curve or on the track the Porsche wins, but how many buyers can really use that? The value for the Porsche's superiority on the track is there BUT no one (or at least very very few) can use that inherent value. So if you can't use it why pay for it?
Re: AMG continues hp war?
Quote:
RR4 said:
I think what bothers most people is not the HP differences but in what ends up being value differences.
Back in the day most manufacturers differentiated themselves with quality/safety advantages. Today everyone builds a great car.
With a supercharged Benz, or a Chrysler 300C your getting a good car AND a ton of HP - whether you can use it (or know how to use it or not). With Porsche, what do you get? You get a great car, but the value is where Porsche is losing it these days. Yes most of you can say that in a curve or on the track the Porsche wins, but how many buyers can really use that? The value for the Porsche's superiority on the track is there BUT no one (or at least very very few) can use that inherent value. So if you can't use it why pay for it?
So you are saying you can use all that AMG hp on the street?
Re: AMG continues hp war?
Quote:
RR4 said:
I think what bothers most people is not the HP differences but in what ends up being value differences.
Back in the day most manufacturers differentiated themselves with quality/safety advantages. Today everyone builds a great car.
With a supercharged Benz, or a Chrysler 300C your getting a good car AND a ton of HP - whether you can use it (or know how to use it or not). With Porsche, what do you get? You get a great car, but the value is where Porsche is losing it these days. Yes most of you can say that in a curve or on the track the Porsche wins, but how many buyers can really use that? The value for the Porsche's superiority on the track is there BUT no one (or at least very very few) can use that inherent value. So if you can't use it why pay for it?
So you are saying you can use all that AMG hp on the street?
Re: AMG continues hp war?
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
RR4 said:
I think what bothers most people is not the HP differences but in what ends up being value differences.
Back in the day most manufacturers differentiated themselves with quality/safety advantages. Today everyone builds a great car.
With a supercharged Benz, or a Chrysler 300C your getting a good car AND a ton of HP - whether you can use it (or know how to use it or not). With Porsche, what do you get? You get a great car, but the value is where Porsche is losing it these days. Yes most of you can say that in a curve or on the track the Porsche wins, but how many buyers can really use that? The value for the Porsche's superiority on the track is there BUT no one (or at least very very few) can use that inherent value. So if you can't use it why pay for it?
So you are saying you can use all that AMG hp on the street?
All you'd be able to do is use the power in a straight line anyway
Re: AMG continues hp war?
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
RR4 said:
I think what bothers most people is not the HP differences but in what ends up being value differences.
Back in the day most manufacturers differentiated themselves with quality/safety advantages. Today everyone builds a great car.
With a supercharged Benz, or a Chrysler 300C your getting a good car AND a ton of HP - whether you can use it (or know how to use it or not). With Porsche, what do you get? You get a great car, but the value is where Porsche is losing it these days. Yes most of you can say that in a curve or on the track the Porsche wins, but how many buyers can really use that? The value for the Porsche's superiority on the track is there BUT no one (or at least very very few) can use that inherent value. So if you can't use it why pay for it?
So you are saying you can use all that AMG hp on the street?
All you'd be able to do is use the power in a straight line anyway
Re: AMG continues hp war?
Quote:
RR4 said:
I think what bothers most people is not the HP differences but in what ends up being value differences.
Back in the day most manufacturers differentiated themselves with quality/safety advantages. Today everyone builds a great car.
With a supercharged Benz, or a Chrysler 300C your getting a good car AND a ton of HP - whether you can use it (or know how to use it or not). With Porsche, what do you get? You get a great car, but the value is where Porsche is losing it these days. Yes most of you can say that in a curve or on the track the Porsche wins, but how many buyers can really use that? The value for the Porsche's superiority on the track is there BUT no one (or at least very very few) can use that inherent value. So if you can't use it why pay for it?
Different strokes for different folks.....always will be some who are "sold" on hp, 0-60 times, top speed, etc...but I suspect many of those people tend to be magazine/car show "racers", rather than actual buyers.....I'd bet more of the actual buyers tend to value how car "feels" to drive(engine/steering/chassis/brakes/exhaust note, etc), esp in mtn twisties driving, arguably far more interesting than straight-line 100MPH+ acceleration/top speed runs.....
F can price 430s at roughly $60K above what P can price 997TTS, despite 430 likely to be slower around N-ring and deficient in the hp dept.....many 430 buyers will prob also get a 997TTS.....two equally great, enjoyable, but different cars....it's not an "either/or" debate....
Similarly, know many guys w/SL/CL/S55/65 (and waiting for '07 S600) who use Mercs for straight-line commuting/people-carrying duty...and they also own 430s for wkend twisties...and will get 997TTS as well....
Re: AMG continues hp war?
Quote:
RR4 said:
I think what bothers most people is not the HP differences but in what ends up being value differences.
Back in the day most manufacturers differentiated themselves with quality/safety advantages. Today everyone builds a great car.
With a supercharged Benz, or a Chrysler 300C your getting a good car AND a ton of HP - whether you can use it (or know how to use it or not). With Porsche, what do you get? You get a great car, but the value is where Porsche is losing it these days. Yes most of you can say that in a curve or on the track the Porsche wins, but how many buyers can really use that? The value for the Porsche's superiority on the track is there BUT no one (or at least very very few) can use that inherent value. So if you can't use it why pay for it?
Different strokes for different folks.....always will be some who are "sold" on hp, 0-60 times, top speed, etc...but I suspect many of those people tend to be magazine/car show "racers", rather than actual buyers.....I'd bet more of the actual buyers tend to value how car "feels" to drive(engine/steering/chassis/brakes/exhaust note, etc), esp in mtn twisties driving, arguably far more interesting than straight-line 100MPH+ acceleration/top speed runs.....
F can price 430s at roughly $60K above what P can price 997TTS, despite 430 likely to be slower around N-ring and deficient in the hp dept.....many 430 buyers will prob also get a 997TTS.....two equally great, enjoyable, but different cars....it's not an "either/or" debate....
Similarly, know many guys w/SL/CL/S55/65 (and waiting for '07 S600) who use Mercs for straight-line commuting/people-carrying duty...and they also own 430s for wkend twisties...and will get 997TTS as well....
Re: AMG continiues hp war?
They may put even 700 HP in a SLK but if I take the current SLK 55 AMG as a comparison, it already is overpowered for this size of a car. As long as Mercedes doesn't enhance weight AND traction, the extra power is pretty worthless to me. My wife's Boxster S with Tiptronic (Porsche's automatic tranny) is ten times more fun than my wife's former SLK 32 AMG because the Boxster doesn't know any traction problems and even on wet pavement, traction is excellent without an interferring PSM(ESP) system. That said, I'm impressed with the new AMG power figures and I already heard up to 700 HP for some special versions of the S-class and SL. But if AMG doesn't improve the traction and lowers weight at the same time, the extra power is just a nice thing to have on the paper, nothing more. My former E55 AMG with 476 HP supercharged engine was horrible to drive on wet pavement and even in the dry it had serious traction problems, even after retrofitting the optional AMG limited slip differential at AMG in Affalterbach directly.
And what worries me most is the fact that "normal" people who don't have any experience with high power output engines actually get to drive such "monsters". Excessive weight, excessive power, attractive price tag (compared to the competition)...a very dangerous thing. I'm not sure if this strategy (more and more power) will work on a long run because where do they want to get to? 1000 HP next year? This is ridiculous.
And what worries me most is the fact that "normal" people who don't have any experience with high power output engines actually get to drive such "monsters". Excessive weight, excessive power, attractive price tag (compared to the competition)...a very dangerous thing. I'm not sure if this strategy (more and more power) will work on a long run because where do they want to get to? 1000 HP next year? This is ridiculous.
Re: AMG continiues hp war?
They may put even 700 HP in a SLK but if I take the current SLK 55 AMG as a comparison, it already is overpowered for this size of a car. As long as Mercedes doesn't enhance weight AND traction, the extra power is pretty worthless to me. My wife's Boxster S with Tiptronic (Porsche's automatic tranny) is ten times more fun than my wife's former SLK 32 AMG because the Boxster doesn't know any traction problems and even on wet pavement, traction is excellent without an interferring PSM(ESP) system. That said, I'm impressed with the new AMG power figures and I already heard up to 700 HP for some special versions of the S-class and SL. But if AMG doesn't improve the traction and lowers weight at the same time, the extra power is just a nice thing to have on the paper, nothing more. My former E55 AMG with 476 HP supercharged engine was horrible to drive on wet pavement and even in the dry it had serious traction problems, even after retrofitting the optional AMG limited slip differential at AMG in Affalterbach directly.
And what worries me most is the fact that "normal" people who don't have any experience with high power output engines actually get to drive such "monsters". Excessive weight, excessive power, attractive price tag (compared to the competition)...a very dangerous thing. I'm not sure if this strategy (more and more power) will work on a long run because where do they want to get to? 1000 HP next year? This is ridiculous.
And what worries me most is the fact that "normal" people who don't have any experience with high power output engines actually get to drive such "monsters". Excessive weight, excessive power, attractive price tag (compared to the competition)...a very dangerous thing. I'm not sure if this strategy (more and more power) will work on a long run because where do they want to get to? 1000 HP next year? This is ridiculous.
Re: AMG continues hp war?
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
VKSF said:
F can price 430s at roughly $60K above what P can price 997TTS
Only in the US... In Europe, the 997TTS will most likely be slightly more expensive than the 430.
Fair point....so, in Germany, an unknown guy can walk into a F dealer and spec a well-equipped 430Coupe and get it in 1-2 mos at MSRP of ?200K Euros??? Is a loaded 996TTSCoupe about 200K Euros as well? Is P able to charge more for its cars in German mkt, or is F forced to sell its cars at a disct in European mkts?....
The US vs Euro differences are amusing....a loaded 996TTS Coupe lists at $155K and a loaded 430Coupe is $225K in US mkt....
Re: AMG continues hp war?
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
VKSF said:
F can price 430s at roughly $60K above what P can price 997TTS
Only in the US... In Europe, the 997TTS will most likely be slightly more expensive than the 430.
Fair point....so, in Germany, an unknown guy can walk into a F dealer and spec a well-equipped 430Coupe and get it in 1-2 mos at MSRP of ?200K Euros??? Is a loaded 996TTSCoupe about 200K Euros as well? Is P able to charge more for its cars in German mkt, or is F forced to sell its cars at a disct in European mkts?....
The US vs Euro differences are amusing....a loaded 996TTS Coupe lists at $155K and a loaded 430Coupe is $225K in US mkt....
Re: AMG continues hp war?
Quote:
VKSF said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
VKSF said:
F can price 430s at roughly $60K above what P can price 997TTS
Only in the US... In Europe, the 997TTS will most likely be slightly more expensive than the 430.
Fair point....so, in Germany, an unknown guy can walk into a F dealer and spec a well-equipped 430Coupe and get it in 1-2 mos at MSRP of ?200K Euros??? Is a loaded 996TTSCoupe about 200K Euros as well? Is P able to charge more for its cars in German mkt, or is F forced to sell its cars at a disct in European mkts?....
The US vs Euro differences are amusing....a loaded 996TTS Coupe lists at $155K and a loaded 430Coupe is $225K in US mkt....
You have to queue up for the F430 in Germany as well. Current time to delivery is ca. 12 months. The question is whether you could have a new 997TTS within 1-2 months after its introduction next year...
BTW: List price of the F430 in Germany is around 150k Euro (incl. VAT). I would be very surprised if the 997TTS would be any cheaper
I paid more for my 996TT with lousy 450hp. If the new one gets 525hp the car will not be cheap given Porsche's average price per incremental hp 
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