Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsch - Page1

Sep 17, 2005 10:15:28 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004

Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsche?

My exhaust tips show different amounts of soot. I clean them off and the same thing happens. Porsche service said nothing wrong with engine. They're good at what they do; I trust them. However I did not get a definitive answer ast to why the soot is different on each side.

Somebody at Porsche Central Command knows why this is happening. How to I get to them? Must I become insistent to my dealer/service people?

BTW, I'm thinking there's a problem with the cooling system. Maybe one side is running colder than the other. A blockage? A defectibe thermostat?

Sorry, but I just can't relax and drive with soot-wierdness just because the Porsche service diagnostics says the engine is okay.

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Sep 17, 2005 10:35:25 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsche?

Get black anodized exhaust tips then you won't have to worry about it....

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Sep 17, 2005 11:55:37 PM

Patton: Newbie; Loc: Dallas, TX (USA); Posts: 17, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 18, 2005; Reply to: 964C2

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsche?

That may take care of the symptoms but doesn't address the illness. I would write PCNA. I would also have a sit down with the service manager and if necessary the dealer's manager to give them a heads up you are serious. If they're experts enough to sell you an U.S.$80-100K machine, they need to be experts enough to back up what they've sold and on your behalf, understand the problem and reach a solution. I would approach this issue as if my warranty was about to run out and I had fully purchased this car (as I will do once it arrives).

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Sep 17, 2005 11:59:09 PM

Patton: Newbie; Loc: Dallas, TX (USA); Posts: 17, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 18, 2005; Reply to: Patton

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsche?

And I just realized this topic is very old.

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Sep 18, 2005 5:37:41 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Patton

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsch

Quote:
Patton said:
And I just realized this topic is very old.

Yeah, probably. Sorry. I guess I'm just freaking out and ranting.

I don't see how they can trust on the diagnostics that say "nothing" is wrong with the engine despite a BIG hint something serious might be going on.

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Sep 18, 2005 4:11:58 PM

U Boat Commander: Veteran; Loc: Los Angeles, CA; Posts: 1250, Gallery; Registered on: May 8, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsch

But is there anything actually "wrong" with the car?

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Sep 19, 2005 4:18:35 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: U Boat Commander

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsch

Quote:
U Boat Commander said:
But is there anything actually "wrong" with the car?

Yes, since the exhaust circuits are independent, one half of the engine is combusting differently from the other half. To me that's wrong.

I see your point but I'd be happier if the issue were that one wiper blade swiped the windshield differently than the other.

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Sep 19, 2005 9:34:29 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: MMD

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsch

Quote:
MMD said:
...... one half of the engine is combusting differently from the other half.

That is just your assumption, based on soot deposits.

Why don't the lamda sensors and ecu "correct" combustion, if it is really different left to right?

You are prepared to blindly accept that soot deposits are more reliable than your lamda sensors?

Have you considered the possibility that more soot has collected on one side than the other due to miniscule differences in surface roughness / polish of the exhaust pipes?

Would you be very disappointed if you were to learn that you are worrying about nothing?

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Sep 20, 2005 9:21:37 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: fritz

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsch

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
MMD said:
...... one half of the engine is combusting differently from the other half.

That is just your assumption, based on soot deposits.

Why don't the lamda sensors and ecu "correct" combustion, if it is really different left to right?

You are prepared to blindly accept that soot deposits are more reliable than your lamda sensors?

Have you considered the possibility that more soot has collected on one side than the other due to miniscule differences in surface roughness / polish of the exhaust pipes?

Would you be very disappointed if you were to learn that you are worrying about nothing?

Good work, you may be right. However, I found that the PCA Tech Q&A site contributes this tidbit:

Q:
I'm getting heavy black soot on the right exhaust only. It's bad enough to coat that area of the body near the right exhaust pipes. I'm not noticing any smoke. I've broken the car in carefully. Oil consumption is exactly 1 QT/1000 miles. I've added 3.5 QTs in 3500 miles. Any recommendations or thoughts as to the cause?

A: You might be using oil only in maybe one cylinder on the right bank and that is giving you the black soot on the exhaust. Wait until you have about 6000 miles on the engine and see if the soot goes away after the engine breaks in. If is doesn't, I would do a cyl leakage check on the right side. There might be a ring problem there

Peter Smith - PCA WebSite - 8/8/2005

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Sep 21, 2005 9:00:13 AM

throt: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 6078, Gallery; Registered on: May 9, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsch

MMD , Just drive and enjoy and if ssssssoot does hit the pan --- they can carry can .

Try not to worry ..

throt..

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Sep 21, 2005 9:17:42 AM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsch

Quote:
MMD said:
...Q:
I'm getting heavy black soot on the right exhaust only. It's bad enough to coat that area of the body near the right exhaust pipes. I'm not noticing any smoke. I've broken the car in carefully. Oil consumption is exactly 1 QT/1000 miles. I've added 3.5 QTs in 3500 miles. Any recommendations or thoughts as to the cause?

A: You might be using oil only in maybe one cylinder on the right bank and that is giving you the black soot on the exhaust. Wait until you have about 6000 miles on the engine and see if the soot goes away after the engine breaks in. If is doesn't, I would do a cyl leakage check on the right side. There might be a ring problem there

Peter Smith - PCA WebSite - 8/8/2005...

That sounds reasonable - wait until you covered 6k mls. If there should be a bigger issue you will still be in warranty.

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Sep 24, 2005 2:22:17 PM

hilsman: Newbie; Loc: MS; Posts: 18, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsche?

I laughed when I first started reading this thread back in Aug. shortly after I bought my 997S....but this morning I looked and just like yours there is more soot on driver's side. I replaced my stock exhaust for PSE at 500m and went and looked at originals and they were the same. I have 900m on PSE....Given there are at least three of us with more deposits on the driver's side I would assume its a nuance and nothing more....I would be a bit more concerned if we didn't have exactly the same differences. ...my pipes look exactly like yours....I have only used 7oz of oil in 1450 m.
I doubt we will ever get a definitive answer....most probably wouldn't notice this and by 6000m there would be enough soot on each to LOOK the same....perhaps driver's side bank of cylinders run richer at start-up????
I share your OCD pain!!!!...and I'm a psychiatrist!!!!

Gray

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Sep 24, 2005 8:28:10 PM

hilsman: Newbie; Loc: MS; Posts: 18, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2005; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsch

MDD,

I went and looked at my original mufflers/pipes and on close inspection the driver's side had more residue. These were on for the first 450m prior to PSE.

Did you pose the ? on the PCA site? I think the driver's side soot issue is probably much more common and simply overlooked....perhaps we can get our less anal retentive S owners to carefully look/wipe and give us feedback.

Maybe a repost to PCA with this specific issue and that it's not isolated would get a better response.

Gray

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Sep 24, 2005 11:04:21 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: hilsman

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsch

If in fact you can find traces of more soot on one side than the other on all 997's, then it's probably an aerodynamic issue....the exhaust swirls differently on one side of the car than the other and leaves more of a residue

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Sep 24, 2005 11:53:56 PM

hilsman: Newbie; Loc: MS; Posts: 18, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 20, 2005; Reply to: 964C2

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsch

Not an aerodynamics issue as I took off the tips and the inside of the exhaust pipes have more soot as well....

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Sep 25, 2005 5:35:40 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: hilsman

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsch

Quote:
hilsman said:
MDD,

I went and looked at my original mufflers/pipes and on close inspection the driver's side had more residue. These were on for the first 450m prior to PSE.

Did you pose the ? on the PCA site? I think the driver's side soot issue is probably much more common and simply overlooked....perhaps we can get our less anal retentive S owners to carefully look/wipe and give us feedback.

Maybe a repost to PCA with this specific issue and that it's not isolated would get a better response.

Gray

No I didn't ask PCA tech people. What I reported was exactly the Q&A on the site regarding soot. Very strange because it was exactly the question I wanted "answered" and there it was in the tech section!

My amateur guess is that the driver's side is running colder than the right side due to an obstruction or design in cooling system.

The other idea is the sooting takes place when the engine is not at operating temp and the driver's side of the engine takes longer to warm up?

I dunno, would be nice to have THE ANSWER from an engineer guy at Porsche Engine Central Command. 1 800 porsche is useless, they just run you back the dealer.

Ask again at PCA site? Yeah I'd like to know how pistons take 6000 miles to break in and stop sooting!

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Sep 25, 2005 2:59:31 PM

DaveC: Veteran; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 1068, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 16, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsch

There may not be an answer that is of any practical significance. On any given healthy individual a random sampling of blood tests will result in a outlying value that does not signify disease. That doesn't mean there aren't a plethora of physicans willing to "investigate" the problem at considerable time and expense. I suggest that you enjoy the car and let the old cure "tincture of time" work its magic. If there is a serious problem it will manifest itself within your warranty period.

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Sep 25, 2005 3:36:31 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: DaveC

Re: Frustrated. How DO you get technical answers from Porsch

Quote:
DaveC said:
There may not be an answer that is of any practical significance. On any given healthy individual a random sampling of blood tests will result in a outlying value that does not signify disease. That doesn't mean there aren't a plethora of physicans willing to "investigate" the problem at considerable time and expense. I suggest that you enjoy the car and let the old cure "tincture of time" work its magic. If there is a serious problem it will manifest itself within your warranty period.

I agree with what you say Dave, no problem.

The difference though is the engine IS a machine (not like a machine as some would describe the human body).

So for all the millions (billions?)spent on perfecting what goes on in these engines, for driving and for racing for 40 years, you'd think there is an exact answer!

I, like everybody else here, just want to know exactly what's going on because I'm a car nut. If my engine is in long-term peril, I'd really like to know that too.

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