Crown

Whoopsy:

Why do people think it has to be either or?

It doesn't today, but in a few years the incentives/reasons for buying an ICE will be gone. And I assume this entire discussion is lot's about the future and not today.

There is a market for pure EV and there is a market for gas/ gas hybrid.

Same as above.

There is a small segment of shoppers that will cross shop but most people don't.

Nothing strange with that. We're talking about EV development in the future in general, not only Tesla vs. Porsche.

People keep barking about Tesla stealing Mercedes BMW etc sales but the numbers tell a different story, all conventional car makers are still going strong.

Some people will go for the Mission E simply because the EV make sense to them for their needs.

Others will keep buying the Panamera simply because a EV doesn't make sense to them, they needed the flexibility of a gas engine car, or they like hearing engine notes, or they want to be actually green and avoid coal fired electricity powered EVs. 

Why did you have to add this comment? Did it make you feel better? Or do you really believe in this?

I'm hearing US Porsche Dealers are already starting to look at building out the charging station infrastructure for the Mission E.  

2014 Porsche 991 C4S Black with Sports Design Package,  2017 Porsche Cayenne Platinum  Purpurite Metallic, New York

bobr:

I'm hearing US Porsche Dealers are already starting to look at building out the charging station infrastructure for the Mission E.  

In the US, the Mission E will clearly have more success than in Germany. Unless of course it becomes a status symbol of some sort and/or the government offers attractive subsidiaries. For example they could offer businesses a tax break of some sorts if they go ELVs or whatever. So many possibilities. I still wonder about the charging infrastructure though.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Who cares because he's not even right. Coal fired Teslas are still greener.

RC:

Simple, you already said it: Charging infrastructure. How long is the Tesla S on the market now? 8 years maybe? How is the charging infrastructure looking so far? In my town, there is no Supercharger. What the heck, they don't even have one in Munich, which is the capital of Bavaria and one of the biggest cities in Germany.

You still don't get that Fast chargers does not need to be in cities? They are best placed a long the motorway and you only need them when driving longer commutes. While in cities you charge while the car is parked and you're doing something else.

Many luxury sedans and SUVs are run through businesses. Do you really think these people care about ELVs?

Maybe not today, but they will need to adapt. When range and charging speeds are non-issues, ICE will not even be on the radar.

They need a status symbol which works well and which brings them safely and comfortably from A to B.

An ICE will not be a status symbol. It will be consider the other way around in a few years time.

A Tesla S is indeed a status symbol, kind of, in Germany but not in the business world. Unless you are working, maybe, in the energy or innovative tech sector where a Tesla S could send a positive message.

bobr:

I'm hearing US Porsche Dealers are already starting to look at building out the charging station infrastructure for the Mission E.  

Porsche Center locations are seldom the best for when people need quick charging on longer trips. Porsche really need to re-think this strategy or build chargers both at dealerships and along motorways.

lukestern:

RC:

Simple, you already said it: Charging infrastructure. How long is the Tesla S on the market now? 8 years maybe? How is the charging infrastructure looking so far? In my town, there is no Supercharger. What the heck, they don't even have one in Munich, which is the capital of Bavaria and one of the biggest cities in Germany.

You still don't get that Fast chargers does not need to be in cities? They are best placed a long the motorway and you only need them when driving longer commutes. While in cities you charge while the car is parked and you're doing something else.

Where? There are no charging stations. 

Many luxury sedans and SUVs are run through businesses. Do you really think these people care about ELVs?

Maybe not today, but they will need to adapt.

Why?

They need a status symbol which works well and which brings them safely and comfortably from A to B.

An ICE will not be a status symbol. It will be consider the other way around in a few years time.

Seriously? I know a guy who started a startup and drives a Tesla S only because it fits the image of his business. Privately, he drives a...R8.   This is how I met him...at my dealership. He had a RS6 before.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

 

Where? There are no charging stations. 

There are LOT's of charging stations in Germany. An even better example is Amsterdam. See below map, each pin represent a charge point and each point can contain 2 or several (up to about 60) outlets (for parking garages etc). Green represent that there is a free parking spot so you will also get some added convenience because you can see availability in realtime.

And for comparison, this shows the petrol stations in the same area

And below map show Berlin, TODAY... New chargers popping up all the time...

Also note that in both these pictures, all the Tesla chargers are excluded. These stations are only the "Public" stations. On top of what's shown on the map there are of course also private company garages with charge points for employees, company visitors, etc.

Really? comparing petrol stations to charging stations? ... you spend 5 mins at a petrol station and your autonomy is back to 100%, you don't need one where you park your car and leave it there as it slowly charges, just pass by it on your way somewhere, you don't need a gazillion of them to be practical.

Hmmm... funny you cherry picked the two top countries in the world with most charging stations (aside the US) they have more than the following 10 countries put together... Spain is the 11th country with more charging stations and they don't even reach 1000 for the entire country.... good luck with that.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

lukestern:

Whoopsy:

Why do people think it has to be either or?

It doesn't today, but in a few years the incentives/reasons for buying an ICE will be gone. And I assume this entire discussion is lot's about the future and not today.

There is a market for pure EV and there is a market for gas/ gas hybrid.

Same as above.

There is a small segment of shoppers that will cross shop but most people don't.

Nothing strange with that. We're talking about EV development in the future in general, not only Tesla vs. Porsche.

People keep barking about Tesla stealing Mercedes BMW etc sales but the numbers tell a different story, all conventional car makers are still going strong.

Some people will go for the Mission E simply because the EV make sense to them for their needs.

Others will keep buying the Panamera simply because a EV doesn't make sense to them, they needed the flexibility of a gas engine car, or they like hearing engine notes, or they want to be actually green and avoid coal fired electricity powered EVs. 

Why did you have to add this comment? Did it make you feel better? Or do you really believe in this?

Yes I do believe that. Same with nuclear power-ed electricity, which some people think are more dirty than coal. Then there are the natural gas power plants. But where I live, we are on hydro power, so a electric car is indeed cleaner. 

But Tesla doesn't do what modern car does while driving, they scrub the air clean. In certain cities, the exhaust gas from modern cars are actually cleaner than the smog-infested air the engine breathed in.

As for that table, have you not noticed they conveniently omit the A6s, 5 series, and E-class? The direct competitor to Tesla Model S? Size wise and price wise?

So coal plants have no excess/waste? They just turn on and off, operating at perfect capacity all day and night?

Carlos from Spain:

Really? comparing petrol stations to charging stations? ... you spend 5 mins at a petrol station and your autonomy is back to 100%, you don't need one where you park your car and leave it there as it slowly charges, just pass by it on your way somewhere, you don't need a gazillion of them to be practical.

In due course EVs will be charged in 5 minutes at fast chargers. I thought this discussion is about the future of EVs, not stuck exactly in how it looks in 2017 and stay here forever?

Hmmm... funny you cherry picked the two top countries in the world with most charging stations (aside the US) they have more than the following 10 countries put together... Spain is the 11th country with more charging stations and they don't even reach 1000 for the entire country.... good luck with that.

I responded to a question from RC. RC lives in Germany so not sure what Spain or other countries lagging behind has to do with this?

Whoopsy:

Yes I do believe that. Same with nuclear power-ed electricity, which some people think are more dirty than coal. Then there are the natural gas power plants. But where I live, we are on hydro power, so a electric car is indeed cleaner. 

That's great news then 

But Tesla doesn't do what modern car does while driving, they scrub the air clean. In certain cities, the exhaust gas from modern cars are actually cleaner than the smog-infested air the engine breathed in.

The effect you describe is minimal in comparison. If all citys were free of ICE cars/trucks the air would not be dirty from start.

As for that table, have you not noticed they conveniently omit the A6s, 5 series, and E-class? The direct competitor to Tesla Model S? Size wise and price wise?

I wouldn't say so. E-class etc start at about 45k EUR and Tesla S double that. So they don't play in the same price segment, that's why they're not comparable.

lukestern:

Just look how quick it went down the drain with the Panamera 4S diesel V8. Porsche discontinued it less than 1 year after introducing it. The 4S diesels in showrooms are colder than cold.... Same thing will happen with petrol cars in a few years. People will not consider them being attractive alternatives. Just simple as that.

1-2 years after Mission-E introduction has taken place and Porsche have sorted the charging infrastructure I can't see anyone choosing a Panamera with ICE over a Mission-E if they are priced the same. The feeling of driving an old (maybe facelifted?) Panamera with a dated drivetrain when the Mission-E is available. Why?

Panamera 4S diesel will return to Porsche. At the beginning of the next year you will be able to order new one once again.

911tts:

lukestern:

Just look how quick it went down the drain with the Panamera 4S diesel V8. Porsche discontinued it less than 1 year after introducing it. The 4S diesels in showrooms are colder than cold.... Same thing will happen with petrol cars in a few years. People will not consider them being attractive alternatives. Just simple as that.

1-2 years after Mission-E introduction has taken place and Porsche have sorted the charging infrastructure I can't see anyone choosing a Panamera with ICE over a Mission-E if they are priced the same. The feeling of driving an old (maybe facelifted?) Panamera with a dated drivetrain when the Mission-E is available. Why?

Panamera 4S diesel will return to Porsche. At the beginning of the next year you will be able to order new one once again.

Is this confirmed officially?

Whoopsies point about air being scrubbed is directly from on the 997 Turbo Top Grear episode. Jeremy Clarksons greatest BS line, or was it?  That was ten years ago. By now they clean double the air per gallon of gas.  I drive all the time in my Turbo. You should see how clean the air is in Leawood. 

But seriously. I'm tired of teslas drag racing me at each an every light. The get preferred parking with free chargers all over the place to boot. They are friggin everywhere. They race in front of cops from green lights and no one looks twice as they just assume that is the future of acceleration.  Okay, it's almost tempting. As for car interiors - that is my smallest concern ever. Could give a flying screw.  What are you guys looking at when you are driving?  It's not a living room. And the feel of materials?  I barely care that some fake tits feel better than others. 

Enzo II:

911tts:

lukestern:

Just look how quick it went down the drain with the Panamera 4S diesel V8. Porsche discontinued it less than 1 year after introducing it. The 4S diesels in showrooms are colder than cold.... Same thing will happen with petrol cars in a few years. People will not consider them being attractive alternatives. Just simple as that.

1-2 years after Mission-E introduction has taken place and Porsche have sorted the charging infrastructure I can't see anyone choosing a Panamera with ICE over a Mission-E if they are priced the same. The feeling of driving an old (maybe facelifted?) Panamera with a dated drivetrain when the Mission-E is available. Why?

Panamera 4S diesel will return to Porsche. At the beginning of the next year you will be able to order new one once again.

Is this confirmed officially?

That's info that received dealers from PAG.

Carlos from Spain:

Really? comparing petrol stations to charging stations? ... you spend 5 mins at a petrol station and your autonomy is back to 100%, you don't need one where you park your car and leave it there as it slowly charges, just pass by it on your way somewhere, you don't need a gazillion of them to be practical.

Hmmm... funny you cherry picked the two top countries in the world with most charging stations (aside the US) they have more than the following 10 countries put together... Spain is the 11th country with more charging stations and they don't even reach 1000 for the entire country.... good luck with that.

Most public charging stations have one, two or maybe three spots for charging. Usually, they are occupied. We have an ELV charging station next to my business, it has three spots (a larger one) and the local energy provider rents out ELVs from that spot, so the spots are usually alway occupied or only one is available for others to be used for charging.

Of course there are lots of charging stations around town but no superchargers and you need to be "registered" to buy energy from them. This is of course not really an issue but it is pretty annoying because you never know which charging station is actually "free" and even if you know, it could be on the other end of the city (enjoy driving from one end to the city to the other during rush hour).

Long story short: ELV owners are too optimistic about how easy it is to charge their cars. I fuel up my car at the fuel station in two to five minutes (tops), incl. payment. 

Besides that, some people here don't seem to get it: I do not want an ELV because they sound and drive like crap. Maybe when I'm 60 and don't enjoy driving anymore, I will get an ELV. An ELV makes sense when driving a lot for business purposes or mainly downtown, I get that. Otherwise, it is just boring. Sorry. The novelty factory with the gadgetry (Tesla S) wears off fast, same goes to the Ludicrous mode. What remains is a boring ride with subpar interior quality, no sound and no emotions. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

Of course there are lots of charging stations around town but no superchargers and you need to be "registered" to buy energy from them. This is of course not really an issue but it is pretty annoying because you never know which charging station is actually "free" and even if you know, it could be on the other end of the city (enjoy driving from one end to the city to the other during rush hour).

Integrated services and roaming will evolve and make payment etc way easier. We're in the early days building infrastructure. In 5 year it will look different.

Long story short: ELV owners are too optimistic about how easy it is to charge their cars. I fuel up my car at the fuel station in two to five minutes (tops), incl. payment. 

In most cases, those who are sceptic have never tried or given it a chance. Sure, if you commute 1000km/day and can't get overnight charging get a Diesel until EV charging takes 5 minutes. But what I'm trying to say is that for many people in the new car market, an EV is already today a feasible alternative. For those who drive <300km/day and have access to overnight charging, an EV is MORE convenient because they will never need to think about how much petrol is left in the tank. Car will always be full and ready each morning.

Besides that, some people here don't seem to get it: I do not want an ELV because they sound and drive like crap. Maybe when I'm 60 and don't enjoy driving anymore, I will get an ELV. An ELV makes sense when driving a lot for business purposes or mainly downtown, I get that. Otherwise, it is just boring. Sorry. The novelty factory with the gadgetry (Tesla S) wears off fast, same goes to the Ludicrous mode. What remains is a boring ride with subpar interior quality, no sound and no emotions. 

1. The discussion in here (at least how I approach it) is a general discussion about the future of EVs, not necessarily about YOUR specific needs TODAY.

2. Can we drop this Tesla thing?  I haven't even mentioned Tesla for a while except putting down a few question marks where Tesla excel today and where it will be interesting to see how the Germans (and others) ramp up the coming years. This discussion is mainly about Mission-E and I assume that car will have a great interior and be as driver focused as a Panamera (but lacking sound).

3. EV and Sports cars is still a question mark. Petrol for sports cars will probably be the better alternative for many years to come. EV as daily and a petrol sports car would hence be a great combo!

I always mention Tesla because from my own experience (I have driven the i3, i8, Zoe, Twizy, etc.), the Tesla S is still the best (most "fun") ELV out there. The Tesla X follows. So if the "best" one doesn't excite me... You get my point. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Have you driven a Smart EV? That rocks... 

It‘s great to roam around cities like Berlin in it though...

Ferdie:

Have you driven a Smart EV? That rocks... 

It‘s great to roam around cities like Berlin in it though...

A friend mentioned that the range is only 80km under real life conditions?

I believe in the end, Tesla will only survive as a "battery (car and home)/charging station" company. Once the major manufacturers get on board with a complete range of "electric only" vehicles, particularly at the mid to high-end, Tesla cars will slowly go away.

The only reason the Tesla S sells today is because it is the only "show in town". It would not compete well against a similarly priced Porsche, BMW, or Mercedes.

Quite possibly so, yet Musk will have personally revolutionized the entire auto industry. Good enough 

Many companies have survived what you're suggesting. David has a history of conquering Goliath in one way or another.

A bit "off-topic" but it's worth keeping in mind that Tesla is attempting to compete in an investment-grade industry with a very weak sub-investment grade financial profile. If you don't have time to analyse the balance sheet, profit and loss and cash flow statement -- just take a look at the credit ratings...

Moody's: https://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-assigns-B2-CFR-to-Tesla-B3-to-unsecured-notes--PR_370922

S&P: https://www.reuters.com/article/brief-sp-says-tesla-inc-ratings-affirmed/brief-sp-says-tesla-inc-ratings-affirmed-following-proposed-notes-issuance-outlook-remains-negative-idUSFWN1KT0PB

This financial profile is not sustainable in such a capital intensive industry, so Tesla either needs to generate massive (positive) free cash flows to deleverage, or will require a significant equity investment - thus diluting existing investors. If the company cannot successfully deleverage, it may be looking at Chapter 11 or a distressed sale. In the downside scenario, the company may not be able to refinance debts as they fall due and capital leases and guarantees start to all look like more debt.

Back "on topic" -- lets hope the production version of the Porsche Mission E looks like this...

Yet they just had more demand than needed for their debt offering. I'd say they are in no trouble any time soon, especially not with $50B of market cap to work with. If I were them, I'd honestly probably try to dilute 20% just to raise a bunch of cash at a high valuation.

noone1:

Yet they just had more demand than needed for their debt offering. I'd say they are in no trouble any time soon, especially not with $50B of market cap to work with. If I were them, I'd honestly probably try to dilute 20% just to raise a bunch of cash at a high valuation.

They just did not long ago...

While the analysis might be right, people have already lost billions shorting the stock.

Ferdie:

Have you driven a Smart EV? That rocks... 

It‘s great to roam around cities like Berlin in it though...

Smart is not a car, it is a disease. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)