Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Body Movement on PASM - Page1

Aug 17, 2005 12:03:51 AM

996toomey: Co-Pilot; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 194, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 10, 2005

Body Movement on PASM

Received the new Excellence last night (just came I don't subscribe?) anyways they were talking about an unsettling movement in the car at speed. Specifically on cars with PASM and not cars with the optional sport suspension. I am in the U.S. so sports suspension is not an option here. They said may have something to do with soft bushings, anybody feel it?

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Aug 17, 2005 1:47:51 AM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: 996toomey

Re: Body Movement on PASM

It could one of two things that are essentially unrelated. A front vertical suspension movement that's like the front of the car doing a bobblehead nodding motion. This is caused by the unequal weight balance between front and rear. It feels as if the front and rear spring rates have been mismatched.

The second is a completely different feeling you get from the rear. It's not a vertical movement but a lateral movement and has nothing to do with PASM. It's basically the bushings that create a lurch under partial transitional load. (And this is distinct from tire sidewall flex.) Under full load or light load it's basically not there because the bushings are either fully compressed or not compressed at all.

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Aug 17, 2005 2:09:20 AM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Body Movement on PASM

Both Automobile and Excellence commented on the lateral heave of the 997. Excellence stated that the movement does not affect traction, but it does erode driver confidence. The context of the statement was that the 997 was improved in every way over the 996 except this characteristic, which they considered an unwelcome return from the 993.

More info:

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/sh...ight=excellence

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=188206

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Aug 17, 2005 2:42:39 AM

996toomey: Co-Pilot; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 194, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 10, 2005; Reply to: frayed

Re: Body Movement on PASM

I had a 996 and never felt it. I have an order in for a 997S, was a little concerned reading the article. If they offered sport suspension in the U.S. I would go that route but not an option here.

LeChef are you feeling it in your car?

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Aug 17, 2005 3:26:26 AM

997S4KEN: Junior; Loc: Ventura, CA; Posts: 100, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 29, 2005; Reply to: 996toomey

Re: Body Movement on PASM

That was one of my main concerns as well. I know about the bobbing. I know dont lift throttle at speed in turns. Damn it seems this car has more character than Charlie Chaplin! I dont mean to sound like a p**** but should us disconcerted pre-order folk throw in the towl and go for a Boxster?

Would then the C4 and C4S be a better candidate. I dont mind sacrificing a little purity for the sake of stability and confidence. Not to mention peace of mind. Please no flames I just want my first Porsche expereince to be something to savour.....

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Aug 17, 2005 3:40:10 AM

996toomey: Co-Pilot; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 194, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 10, 2005; Reply to: 997S4KEN

Re: Body Movement on PASM

I'd stay with the 997S. I am. I have had 2 P cars prior and each one has been better than the last, I am sure the magazine was just nit-picking but if I feel it at speed and it is unsettling on my nerves I will change the bushings or springs if needed. They did say the car doesn't lose grip just feels a little ancy. We will see if your not sold on the 997 maybe get a cayman when they come out.

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Aug 17, 2005 3:46:30 AM

Gary No Cal: Junior; Loc: Calif. USA; Posts: 130, Gallery; Registered on: May 19, 2005; Reply to: 997S4KEN

Re: Body Movement on PASM

Quote:
997S4KEN said:
That was one of my main concerns as well. I know about the bobbing. I know dont lift throttle at speed in turns. Damn it seems this car has more character than Charlie Chaplin! I dont mean to sound like a p**** but should us disconcerted pre-order folk throw in the towl and go for a Boxster?

Would then the C4 and C4S be a better candidate. I dont mind sacrificing a little purity for the sake of stability and confidence. Not to mention peace of mind. Please no flames I just want my first Porsche expereince to be something to savour.....

I have to throw my two cent in here. I have a Boxster (and have done about 20 autocrosses in it) and a 5 day old 997 S. Now I have not really explored the handling envelope much yet in the 997, but after 500 miles I think it is a much better sports car. Deciding to get a Boxster over a 997 S would be a big mistake, unless the price difference is part of the equation. Don't do it! IMHO the 997 is a much more sophisticated car with much higher performance and provides a richer driving experience. I really don't know what all the discussion is about "bobbing", "unsettled", etc. (But I have only done 95MPH through a sweeper(breakin period, you know; so don't know if they are talking about at higher sppeds than that?)This car is extremely stable as every article I have read also confirms. I need to see the Excellence article before commenting on it but from my seat of the pants in both the Boxster and the 997, there is no contest.

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Aug 17, 2005 4:10:49 AM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: 997S4KEN

Re: Body Movement on PASM

Quote:
997S4KEN said:
That was one of my main concerns as well. I know about the bobbing. I know dont lift throttle at speed in turns. Damn it seems this car has more character than Charlie Chaplin! I dont mean to sound like a p**** but should us disconcerted pre-order folk throw in the towl and go for a Boxster?

Would then the C4 and C4S be a better candidate. I dont mind sacrificing a little purity for the sake of stability and confidence. Not to mention peace of mind. Please no flames I just want my first Porsche expereince to be something to savour.....

Stick with you plan. The 997 is truly an awesome machine, and incredibly confidence inspiring. Even more so than the the 993 and 996, both of which are a huge step forward from the 964.

Don't worry. . . I've had several BMWs that I've tracked; now on my 3rd Porsche (996 C2, C4S and now GT3), and the 997 is an incredibly tractable, predictable and confidence inspiring drive.

Buy one, savor the experience and don't look back.

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Aug 17, 2005 4:36:53 AM

jlr: Junior; Loc: Birmingham, Alabama; Posts: 123, Gallery; Registered on: May 15, 2005; Reply to: 996toomey

Re: Body Movement on PASM

Call me old-fashioned, but I like the "lateral heave" of the 997. The slight bobbing is a reminder of 911s of old, so I understand. In fact, I almost bought an air-cooled 911 because those cars were a bit more challenging to drive. I certainly wouldn't give up my order because the car is more difficult to drive than a Boxster. I liked my Boxster too, more confidence inspiring, but less interesting to drive. What astounded me about the Boxster was the steering.

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Aug 17, 2005 4:56:08 AM

Gary No Cal: Junior; Loc: Calif. USA; Posts: 130, Gallery; Registered on: May 19, 2005; Reply to: jlr

Re: Body Movement on PASM

Quote:
jlr said:
Call me old-fashioned, but I like the "lateral heave" of the 997. The slight bobbing is a reminder of 911s of old, so I understand. In fact, I almost bought an air-cooled 911 because those cars were a bit more challenging to drive. I certainly wouldn't give up my order because the car is more difficult to drive than a Boxster. I liked my Boxster too, more confidence inspiring, but less interesting to drive. What astounded me about the Boxster was the steering.

I drove a '72 S and a '80 SC for a combined 12 years, included several on-the-street spins

I don't miss the unsettled, light front end feel of those cars at all. There is no similarity in the handling at all.

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Aug 17, 2005 6:19:32 AM

wtsnet: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Bath, UK; Posts: 2430, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 19, 2004; Reply to: Gary No Cal

Re: Body Movement on PASM

I have a 987S with PASM, and the rear-end lurching presents itself most when pressing on through medium-speed bends with uneven road surface / camber changes. It's better controlled if PASM is in Sport mode. So the Boxster is 'unsettling' too. Don't switch from a 997 because of it. Drive 'em both (if you haven't already) and pick the one you prefer.

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Aug 17, 2005 7:19:32 AM

krC2S: Junior; Loc: Boston,USA; Posts: 122, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 30, 2005; Reply to: wtsnet

Re: Body Movement on PASM

i also think its less pronounced with PASM is sport mode

it's probably a combination of uneven weight distribution and softer suspension in the normal setting

though initially discomforting it can become enjoyable..sometimes prefer not to put PASM in sport to enjoy taking a turn more!

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Aug 17, 2005 12:41:44 PM

jjr1: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 213, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2002; Reply to: krC2S

Re: Body Movement on PASM

I drove a PASM equipped car and know exactly what you mean by that bobbing motion. It does not do the same on the -20mm

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Aug 17, 2005 2:10:13 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: 996toomey

Re: Body Movement on PASM

Yes my C2S does the lurch in medium speed corners, but I'm used to it now. At high speeds on the track and with PASM in sport I've not noticed it. My suspicion is that you would exactly the same thing in the C4 and C4S as it's caused by the bushing in the rear suspension and has nothing to do with traction.

The bobbing is a characteristic of the 911 and is not a problem. You only notice it on uneven road surfaces at higher speeds.

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Aug 17, 2005 2:20:55 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: 996toomey

Re: Body Movement on PASM

Did they mention if it happened in 'Sport' mode or not?

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Aug 17, 2005 3:41:35 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: Body Movement on PASM

PASM might well have these behavioural traits but the most interesting comparison for those of us in Europe (where the -20mm sports suspension is available) is whether the experts prefer the standard suspension on the 997 C2 or the -20mm sports suspension. My understanding is that the majority view is that the -20mm option is the best choice provided the roads aren't too potholed. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to try the -20mm option but I certainly will some day. I will make up my own mind which I prefer and I recommend others do precisely that rather than let other people tell you what to believe.

It would be interesting to compare a C2 with standard suspension and a C2 with -20mm sports suspension so that everything else (including the engine etc) is the same.

Although Autocar said they thought the base 997 with standard suspension was the better choice, with all due respect, they should have tried the 997S with -20mm sports suspension first before making such a bold and controversial claim. No doubt, making a few headlines (and selling a few extra copies of their magazine) was a factor...

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Aug 17, 2005 4:14:32 PM

Gaz: Co-Pilot; Loc: London, England; Posts: 246, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 4, 2004; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: Body Movement on PASM

Personally I've never experienced the front-end bobbing in standard mode (only in PASM Sport). The lateral rear end sensation exists in both modes however. You do get used to it though.

It's good to hear that other people can feel this - I though it was just me!

Can you order a 4S with -20mm? (just thinking about next year - that's all!!)

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Aug 17, 2005 4:56:20 PM

997S4KEN: Junior; Loc: Ventura, CA; Posts: 100, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 29, 2005; Reply to: frayed

Re: Body Movement on PASM

Quote:
frayed said:
Quote:
997S4KEN said:
That was one of my main concerns as well. I know about the bobbing. I know dont lift throttle at speed in turns. Damn it seems this car has more character than Charlie Chaplin! I dont mean to sound like a p**** but should us disconcerted pre-order folk throw in the towl and go for a Boxster?

Would then the C4 and C4S be a better candidate. I dont mind sacrificing a little purity for the sake of stability and confidence. Not to mention peace of mind. Please no flames I just want my first Porsche expereince to be something to savour.....

Stick with you plan. The 997 is truly an awesome machine, and incredibly confidence inspiring. Even more so than the the 993 and 996, both of which are a huge step forward from the 964.

Don't worry. . . I've had several BMWs that I've tracked; now on my 3rd Porsche (996 C2, C4S and now GT3), and the 997 is an incredibly tractable, predictable and confidence inspiring drive.

Buy one, savor the experience and don't look back.

Yeah.. I guess I was being a wee bit paranoid. Give me a 997S and SUPERSIZE it please!

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Aug 17, 2005 6:23:17 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: 996toomey

Re: Body Movement on PASM

I've felt it. It's not a bobbing motion. When on sweepers going pretty hard the rear of the car seems to shift slightly to the outside of the turn very briefly. If you aren't paying close attention you wouldn't notice it.

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Aug 17, 2005 7:22:55 PM

Bill (Chicago): Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 47, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 20, 2004; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Body Movement on PASM

I just got my car and I noticed it once already on an exit ramp. It is not something that I would switch cars over. I think the fix will be to install the GT3 upper control arms when they become available, or you could go to after market solid aluminum ones now. I think that would be over kill for a street car though.

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Aug 17, 2005 7:29:56 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: Bill (Chicago)

Re: Body Movement on PASM

post # 127886
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=997&Number=126890&page=0&fpart=4

Exactly where I noticed it. On an off-ramp.

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