Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt! - Page1

Aug 7, 2005 4:21:46 AM

Dan Blumenthal: Newbie; Loc: Jackson, MS; Posts: 33, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 3, 2005

Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

I just finished doing two runs to get performance results from my supposed 550 hp 996tt. The air temperature was 83F;
tires were warm, but not hot; traction control was off. Both runs I ran the revs up to about 3500 rpm and dumped the clutch. There was some rear wheel hop and then when the tires gripped, a bit of lag. I got hp numbers, but I don't trust them because I think they were taken in the highest gear, which would give too much aerodynamic loss. So, I will do hp in second gear and do a seperate report. I will say that max hp occured at a rather high 6900 rpm and torque was usually about 40 hp below max hp. Other than that, here are the best numbers:

0-60 3.9
1/4 mile 11.9 @ 122

The my old 993tt felt a bit stronger 0-60 than this car. That air cooler lump had so much torque! But, this car just has more hp. I was expecting a bit better numbers, but as the weather cools and I am able to perfect my launches, I think I can better those numbers, although I am not going to try endlessly at the cost of a clutch!

Enjoy,

Dan Blumenthal

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Aug 7, 2005 10:44:46 AM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Dan Blumenthal

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Quote:
Dan Blumenthal said:
I got hp numbers, but I don't trust them because I think they were taken in the highest gear, which would give too much aerodynamic loss.

I don't understand. Could you please explain?

Quote:
Dan Blumenthal said:So, I will do hp in second gear and do a seperate report. I will say that max hp occured at a rather high 6900 rpm and torque was usually about 40 hp below max hp.

I don't understand. Could you please explain?

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Aug 7, 2005 7:07:41 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: fritz

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Does the G-Tech require a weight to be entered, and if so, what weight did you use?

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Aug 7, 2005 7:55:36 PM

Dan Blumenthal: Newbie; Loc: Jackson, MS; Posts: 33, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 3, 2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Fritz-

It has to do with how the device works. When you do a quarter mile run, the meter will take all other readings from 0 distance through the quarter mile, like 60 ft., 0-60, 0-100, hp, etc. If I am reading the instruction correctly, the hp number is taken near the end of the run where the car is going over 120 mph. The aerodynamic loss on top of the drive line loss is great at this speed. The manual recommends that hp be taken using a second gear in order to minimize aero drag. They specifically explain how to do this, but last night I went for the long 1/4 mile runs and think that the hp numbers were low due to the above explanation. I will try to do the second gear pulls and see if there is a difference. There may not be, but the hp numbers were lower than I expected getting the acceleration and trap speeds that I did.

Dan

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Aug 7, 2005 7:58:26 PM

Dan Blumenthal: Newbie; Loc: Jackson, MS; Posts: 33, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 3, 2005; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Dock-

Absolutely. This is extremely important, otherwise the hp number is garbage. I put in 3550 lbs. I have the spare tire out, so I'm figuring the cars weight at about 3350 lbs. Then I weigh about 200 fully clothed, so that's where the 3550 comes from. If you have a better number, please inform me.

Dan

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Aug 7, 2005 8:36:02 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Dan Blumenthal

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Quote:
Dan Blumenthal said:
Fritz-

It has to do with how the device works. When you do a quarter mile run, the meter will take all other readings from 0 distance through the quarter mile, like 60 ft., 0-60, 0-100, hp, etc. If I am reading the instruction correctly, the hp number is taken near the end of the run where the car is going over 120 mph. The aerodynamic loss on top of the drive line loss is great at this speed. The manual recommends that hp be taken using a second gear in order to minimize aero drag. They specifically explain how to do this, but last night I went for the long 1/4 mile runs and think that the hp numbers were low due to the above explanation. I will try to do the second gear pulls and see if there is a difference. There may not be, but the hp numbers were lower than I expected getting the acceleration and trap speeds that I did.

Dan

Dan,

I think Fritz's questions have to do with why the selected gear would have any influence on the drag, since the coefficient of drag is based on external vehicle contours interacting with the air, and that torque is different from power (e.g., pound-feet of torque vs. horsepower).

This is an aside. Do you know of a cheap device (besides my stopwatch on my right wrist

) that I could obtain to measure my car's 0-60mph/0-100mph/0-quarter mile, etc. times that would be precise enough to the 0.1 second and that I could operate solo?

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Aug 7, 2005 8:43:42 PM

Dan Blumenthal: Newbie; Loc: Jackson, MS; Posts: 33, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 3, 2005; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Yes, I see your point. When a dyno pull is done, it is usually done in 4th gear, but in that case, there are no aero losses. On the street, when using the G-tech, to use 4th gear to measure hp would induce too much aero drag since at the peak hp, you'd be going ove 140 mph. So, they recommened you use second gear which is the best compromise, since your speed is only close to 80 mph at the hp peak.

There are several devices out there that will do these measurements, G-tech and at least one other--I forget the name, but they also make radar detectors. I prefer the G-tech myself. I think it runs like $200. Aside from a stopwatch or a "third wheel" I know of no other reliable way to get these measurements.

Dan

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Aug 7, 2005 9:00:17 PM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: Dan Blumenthal

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Quote:
Dan Blumenthal said:
Dock-

Absolutely. This is extremely important, otherwise the hp number is garbage. I put in 3550 lbs. I have the spare tire out, so I'm figuring the cars weight at about 3350 lbs. Then I weigh about 200 fully clothed, so that's where the 3550 comes from. If you have a better number, please inform me.

Dan

Curb weight according to Porsche is 3505lbs. So, you're looking close to 3700lbs.

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Aug 7, 2005 9:00:30 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Dan Blumenthal

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

OK, now I get it.

"G-Tech" didn't mean anything to me until I just googled it. I initially thought the test "runs" you referred to were on a rolling-road dyno.

So the G-Tech tracks a car's rate of acceleration using GPS, the vehicles' weight has to be input by the driver, and the engine's power curve (bhp against engine revs) is calculated from the acceleration curve, after possibly making some provision for friction losses.

Have I got it right?

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Aug 7, 2005 9:45:46 PM

Statman: Junior; Loc: Boulder, Santa Monica , United States; Posts: 100, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Al, I think the other one is by escort. I have not heard exactly how precise or accurate these are. Think dyno is the only real way to get the correct values (and even then the tests should be replicated to get an estimate for measurement error).

http://www.escortradar.com/gtimer.htm

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Aug 7, 2005 9:52:08 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Dan Blumenthal

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Thanks,

I'll check it out. I did a quick Google search as Fritz did. I have experience using a GPS system to record speed and distance of an object (i.e., myself)-I'm a distance runner and have used one of those GPS-based sports watches that records my running speed (pace) and distance. My only concern is that for running, the watch technology is such that accuracy is a bit questionable, at least for incurable obsessive characters like distance runners who fret over tenths of a second and inches in a 5k race.

I'm tempted to pick up one of those G-techs or a similar product. Anyone else with experience with the G-tech (or another similar gadget)?

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Aug 7, 2005 9:54:32 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Statman

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Thanks,

Do you know offhand how respectable their radar detectors are? Everyone seems to plug the Valentine.

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Aug 7, 2005 10:46:48 PM

Statman: Junior; Loc: Boulder, Santa Monica , United States; Posts: 100, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2005; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Al,, You are right! Most people love their V1. However, in some of the recent tests, the Bel and Escort came out OK. See:
http://www.radarbusters.com/support/speedlabs-2005/Default.asp

http://radardetector.net/

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Aug 8, 2005 12:28:56 AM

Dan Blumenthal: Newbie; Loc: Jackson, MS; Posts: 33, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 3, 2005; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Dock-

My owners manual says 3495 "empty weight"--whatever that means. I am assuming that includes all fluids, but no passenger. If the weight is more, than the hp number will be lower. Anyone else want to 'weight' in on this? I need an accurate weight to to a power/tq run!

Dan

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Aug 8, 2005 12:36:47 AM

Dan Blumenthal: Newbie; Loc: Jackson, MS; Posts: 33, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 3, 2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

I do not think that GPS has anything to do with how the G-tech works. It uses g-forces, time, engine revs, and vehicle weight to calculate acceleration times, cornering g's, hp & torque, etc. It is supposedly extrememly accurate. The hp/tq. numbers are probably least accurate, since exact vehicle weight needs to be inputted and any driveline and aerodynamic losses must be figured manually. It gives you power, but you must multiply up by a factor that accounts for these losses. So, if the G-tech reads 350 hp , then you must guess at a driveline loss and aero loss. Say it's 20%. Then, flywheel hp would be about 438 hp if I did my math correctly. I hope that helps some.

Dan

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Aug 8, 2005 3:33:05 AM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Dan Blumenthal

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Quote:
Dan Blumenthal said:
I do not think that GPS has anything to do with how the G-tech works. It uses g-forces, time, engine revs, and vehicle weight to calculate acceleration times, cornering g's, hp & torque, etc. It is supposedly extrememly accurate. The hp/tq. numbers are probably least accurate, since exact vehicle weight needs to be inputted and any driveline and aerodynamic losses must be figured manually. It gives you power, but you must multiply up by a factor that accounts for these losses. So, if the G-tech reads 350 hp , then you must guess at a driveline loss and aero loss. Say it's 20%. Then, flywheel hp would be about 438 hp if I did my math correctly. I hope that helps some.

Dan

It sounds like it uses an accelerometer that relies on user inputs of drag losses (estimated %) and vehicle laden weight, and measures engine revs and time of test. I have an accelerometer on my Polar sport digital watch that reads out my running pace based on the accelerometer measure of my running stride (based on a timed run on a track with exact known distance, e.g., 400m for one lap), then uses the accelerometer to measure running pace since it can measure my running stride tornover rate and by knowing my stride length from the calibration on the track, it can determine distance run-and pace based on distance / time.

Do you know what calibrated number the gadget uses (? does it know the car can travel a certain distance in a given gear at given engine rev's)?

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Aug 8, 2005 3:39:08 AM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Statman

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Quote:
Statman said:
Al,, You are right! Most people love their V1. However, in some of the recent tests, the Bel and Escort came out OK. See:
http://www.radarbusters.com/support/speedlabs-2005/Default.asp

http://radardetector.net/

It's pretty interesting how on radarbusters.com, Radar Roy says they won't market a jammer (they're illegal), but if I order one, they'll give me a rebate of $100.00, kind of like a kickback to the jammer manufacturer.

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Aug 8, 2005 3:42:47 AM

Dan Blumenthal: Newbie; Loc: Jackson, MS; Posts: 33, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 3, 2005; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Yes, exactly, it uses an accelerometer. Beyond that I'm not sure exactly how it works. It must have been programmmed to know how much distance is covered by a given amount of g forces--read acceleration.

Dan

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Aug 8, 2005 3:55:43 AM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Dan Blumenthal

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Quote:
Dan Blumenthal said:
Yes, exactly, it uses an accelerometer. Beyond that I'm not sure exactly how it works. It must have been programmmed to know how much distance is covered by a given amount of g forces--read acceleration.

Dan

Cool,

I get 483FWHP for your run, based on 350 measured/estimated RWHP + (350 x 0.20 drag loss fudge factor = 70) = 420 "corrected RWHP" x 1.15 = 483FWHP. Am I miscalculating?

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Aug 8, 2005 4:03:19 AM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Now all I need is three more cigarette lighter jacks (one for my cell phone, one for my G-tech accelerometer, one for my radar detector, and one for my radar jammer)!

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Aug 8, 2005 5:21:37 AM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: Dan Blumenthal

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Quote:
Dan Blumenthal said:
Dock-

Absolutely. This is extremely important, otherwise the hp number is garbage. I put in 3550 lbs. I have the spare tire out, so I'm figuring the cars weight at about 3350 lbs. Then I weigh about 200 fully clothed, so that's where the 3550 comes from. If you have a better number, please inform me.

Dan

I weighed my '02 Turbo on four-pad racing scales, and it weighed 3480 pounds with full fluids and no occupants. It's lightly optioned with no sunroof.

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Aug 8, 2005 6:20:22 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Quote:
Al Pettee said:
Now all I need is three more cigarette lighter jacks (one for my cell phone, one for my G-tech accelerometer, one for my radar detector, and one for my radar jammer)!

Oh, I wanna have your problems!

I was just as clueless as Fritz on this system! I assume that those devices can only been somewhat accurate due to measurement devices. GPS would definately help but I am not sure if a regular system would be accurate enough to measure acceleration. They are quite accurate regarding topspeed measurements, especially since those take part over a longer period of time and elapsed way.

Gyrometers to measure g-forces, namely longitudinal and transversal forces, have to be setup exactly horizontally - I have no clue if this has to be done on the above mentioned system.

Regarding weight measurements they can usually done at some industrial sites, usually used for weighting trucks, some automotive companies seem to have them as well. Best and probably most accurate thing should be the above mentioned racing scale.

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Aug 8, 2005 9:14:30 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Quote:
Ferdie said:
I was just as clueless as Fritz on this system! I assume that those devices can only been somewhat accurate due to measurement devices. GPS would definately help but I am not sure if a regular system would be accurate enough to measure acceleration. They are quite accurate regarding topspeed measurements, especially since those take part over a longer period of time and elapsed way.

Gyrometers to measure g-forces, namely longitudinal and transversal forces, have to be setup exactly horizontally - I have no clue if this has to be done on the above mentioned system.

From what I remember seeing on the G-Tech web site, the system plots distance travelled against time, which would allow speed and acceleration (rate of change of speed) to be derived from the plot. Don't know much about metrology systems, but I would think that a GPS-based system coupled with a plot recorder and simple math processor could do this.

The problem I see in the context of this thread is that deriving engine power output figures from the results depends on the accuracy of the car weight put into the equation and on the use of arbitrarily guesstimated "fudge factors". Rolling road dyno results would be much more reliable, but still nowhere near as good as engine test bench results.

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Aug 8, 2005 9:42:42 PM

Dan Blumenthal: Newbie; Loc: Jackson, MS; Posts: 33, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 3, 2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Fritz-

G-tech doesn't claim 100% accuracy on their hp and torque numbers. They realize there is alot of fudging that has to be done with their numbers before they really mean anything. The device is however supposed to be very accurate with acceleration times and speed. So much so that some car magazines use them to test with. The graphs that are produced from the hp and torque figures can be plotted against time and rpm, which makes them interesting. You can see how and where your motor makes power, even if it's absolute output cannot be determined with 100% accuracy. For that, you need some sort of dyno, as you stated. The results can be downloaded onto a PC, so when I figure out how to do this, maybe I'll post some of the power curves.

Dan

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Aug 9, 2005 1:20:35 AM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Dan Blumenthal

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Quote:
Dan Blumenthal said:
Fritz-

G-tech doesn't claim 100% accuracy on their hp and torque numbers. They realize there is alot of fudging that has to be done with their numbers before they really mean anything. The device is however supposed to be very accurate with acceleration times and speed.

For me, this would be its most important use, not just 0-60mph, but also 0-100mph-0, so I can see how fast I brake as well as accelerate. I wish I could find some data on the gadget's accuracy. Any known reviews of it from an "independent" source? BTW, I think the 996TT was tested by one of the US car rags as the fastest "production" street car from 0-100-0, beaten only by one of Carlos' toys (I think a Kawasaki motorcycle).

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Aug 9, 2005 3:41:23 AM

Dan Blumenthal: Newbie; Loc: Jackson, MS; Posts: 33, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 3, 2005; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Fritz-

The 993 turbo had held this honor and it has now been passed on to it successor, the 996 turbo. Very fitting.

Yes a motorcycle will definetely make 996 turbo look foolish. I have a Ducati 998 Superbike and figure the 996tt would need to about 150 to catch it and at about 160, the 996 tt would finally come past and eventually top out at it's power peak in 6th gear, or about 205 mph! There are no stock production bikes that will touch 205-- not even a stock Hiyabusa with a numbskull aboard!

Dan

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Aug 9, 2005 12:53:12 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Car & Driver recently did a test of all these "devices".....

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Aug 9, 2005 9:54:41 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Quote:
Al Pettee said:0-100mph-0, so I can see how fast I brake as well as accelerate. BTW, I think the 996TT was tested by one of the US car rags as the fastest "production" street car from 0-100-0, beaten only by one of Carlos' toys (I think a Kawasaki motorcycle).

Here's the fastest street-legal car's record time (10.3 secs. - just slightly slower than 996TT gets to 100mph without stopping) and video:
http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/record.html

And here are some other competitors for 0-100-0:

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Aug 9, 2005 10:17:36 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Quote:
Al Pettee said: BTW, I think the 996TT was tested by one of the US car rags as the fastest "production" street car from 0-100-0, beaten only by one of Carlos' toys (I think a Kawasaki motorcycle).

Road & Track does 0-100-0 tests every so often, and the last test they did was published in their Aug '03 issue. They tested the 996 Turbo (with X50), Viper SRT-10, Audi RS 6, MB E55 AMG, Ferrari 575M, MB SL55 AMG, Murcielago, and the Saleen S7.

The 996 Turbo won the competition with a 0-100-0 time of 13.5 seconds

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Aug 10, 2005 2:10:56 AM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Dock,

You are correct, that is the test I was referring to. At the time, they compared a Kawasaki ZX-9R motorcycle 0-100-0 time when tested in 1994 to several cars. Here are their results, with equipment, year of test and time:

1. Kawasaki ZX-9R, 1994, 11.5 seconds;
2. Ferrari Enzo, 2003, 11.7;
3. Porsche 911TT with X50 power pack, 2003, 13.5;
4. Porsche 911 Development Turbo, 1996, 13.7;
5. Dodge Viper SRT-10, 2003, 13.9;
6. Porsche 911TT, 1996, 14.0;
7. Lambo Murcielago, 2003, 14.2;
8. Saleen S7, 2003, 14.3;
9. HKS Toyota Supra Turbo, 1996, 14.7;
10. Ferrari 575M Maranello, 2003, 14.8.

Not bad company for the Porsche turbo's.

Obviously, this is out-of-date as Grant has shown. I'd like to see some 0-100-0 #'s for the F430, MBSL65AMG, and Corvette Blue Devil and 997TT once they are available.

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Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

Re: Finally: G-Tech performance results for '02 996tt!

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