Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna? - Page3

Jun 28, 2005 8:06:46 AM

Avantgarde: Senior; Loc: City State; Posts: 708, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2005

997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

I currently own a 2005 Cayenne and am now planning the purchase of my first Porsche 'real' sports car. I have only recently research on the performance differences between the C2S and the C4S but found very minor differences in performance specs on paper. The C2S is faster by 0.1s to the century and ~0.4s to the next century. Physical differences only attribute to a wider body/stance, AWD tranny and additional ~140kg in total. Figures mentioned earlier are for manual although I plan to get the tiptronic version.
I would appreciate if the resident experts here could shed some light to scrutinise the vital on-road differences and assist me in making this decision.
I am really excited about this purchase and am looking forward to the delivery in November'05 if all goes well.
Thanks in advance.

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Jun 28, 2005 10:44:57 AM

kickdown: Junior; Loc: Dubai; Posts: 109, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 24, 2005; Reply to: Avantgarde

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

i think the the C4s will have better looks and stability on road since it has a wider body and its 4 wheel drive. Id personally go for a C4s although i currently own a 997s. good luck its a hard decision to make.

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Jun 28, 2005 11:15:58 AM

993Targa: Rennteam Pro; Loc: ZH , Switzerland; Posts: 2522, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 16, 2004; Reply to: Avantgarde

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Go for a 997S, much more fun to drive... and you already own a 4WD anyway

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Jun 28, 2005 2:36:27 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: 993Targa

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
Zürich said:
Go for a 997S, much more fun to drive... and you already own a 4WD anyway

I agree, AWD takes away some of the agility and sporty nature of the cars in exchange for a bit better all-weather capability (not usually a big issue for a sports car as they're typically driven in nicer weather).

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Jun 28, 2005 3:03:10 PM

Avantgarde: Senior; Loc: City State; Posts: 708, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Is it also true that pure Porsche enthusiast only drives the C2S and the GT3?

...not even the Turbos

I live in a City state so perhaps the AWD of a C4S may not be useful afterall for all that extra baggage.

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Jun 28, 2005 3:52:28 PM

kickdown: Junior; Loc: Dubai; Posts: 109, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 24, 2005; Reply to: Avantgarde

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

if u can afford a better lookin car with more options why let it go ? C4s is way better lookin than the c2s. It has a wider body and a more aggressive bumper.. think abbout it...would u let all that go just to skit and have more fun with the car? now that goes back to u

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Jun 28, 2005 5:24:54 PM

mikekenzo: Junior; Loc: La Jolla, CA; Posts: 54, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2004; Reply to: kickdown

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

I had the same question, should I wait for the 997 C4S or not. After taking a drive in the 996 C4S vs. the 996 C2 I enjoyed the way the C2 drove considerably more... I do believe that the looks of the C4S are stunning, but remember that the C2(s) does have a wider body than the 996. I opted for the C2S as I bought the car for driving (i still have a thing for wide hips though!

.

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Jun 28, 2005 5:33:46 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Avantgarde

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
Avant said:
Is it also true that pure Porsche enthusiast only drives the C2S and the GT3? ...not even the Turbos

True - the turbo enthusiasts drive the GT2

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Jun 29, 2005 2:53:21 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn;t Porsche develop the C4 mainly for snowy and rainy climates? The handling differences, different as they may be, aren't really an issue for clear driving conditions. Am I right?

So why get a C4 unless you would feel safer in rain and snow?

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Jun 29, 2005 3:37:15 AM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: kickdown

"More aggressive bumper?"

Looking at the photos of both the C2S and C4S there appears to be no difference whatsoever. You may be thinking of the old 996 C4S. As to the width, good for you if you drive on nice wide roads!

I sold my 996 C4S because it was an undesteering pig and bought the C2S. I like it because it's narrower, lighter, has better steering, and sharper handling.

But if you prefer the C4S after testing it against a C2S then go for it!

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Jun 29, 2005 9:09:21 AM

Mike S: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Somewhere , Taiwan; Posts: 7720, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: "More aggressive bumper?"

lol le chef "understeering like a pig" hahahaha

i would take the normal c2s over the c4s, the RWD is just more fun than a AWD, i drove the 996 turbo and the gt2 and i must say the RWD is a lot more fun, the AWD is not neccessary if you don't live in harsh weather conditions

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Jun 29, 2005 9:34:54 AM

ALDO: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany; Posts: 3072, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: MMD

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
MMD said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn;t Porsche develop the C4 mainly for snowy and rainy climates? The handling differences, different as they may be, aren't really an issue for clear driving conditions. Am I right?

So why get a C4 unless you would feel safer in rain and snow?

Porsche did never develop AWD for snow. Porsche developed AWD for getting extra grip. In normal situation you will have 95% of the power on the rear axle. I think nobody could feel the difference between a 997 S and a 997 4S in normal dry conditions. When getting wet or when you push hard, there you will see the difference. Then the 4S will transfer up to 30% to the front wheels. A 4S will never win a snow competition against Audi quattro or similar cars.

AM

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Jun 29, 2005 10:15:36 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: ALDO

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

That's very true, a lot of people see the 4WD models as wet weather 911s, this is not their primary purpose.
They were indeed developed to offer more grip and then, as a consequence they push the limit of the car on the wet, but then, when grip is lost, it's too late.

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Jun 29, 2005 12:12:06 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: ALDO

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

More grip does not mean faster mind you. The AWD in the 911 may give it more grip (only under acceleration at that) and is easier to control or take to the limit, but in turn it gives up to the RWD in handling and agility therefore the RWD is faster around the track. The AWD understeers more, is heavier, looses more engine powers as it tranfers to the wheels, and the steering is not as sharp and sensitive.

So it depends what you want, the RWD is faster and sportier in feel and handling, more fun. The AWD in turn is more noble and easier to drive at the limit in its manners, and a bit safer at the limit as well (with the PSM now the safety advantage of the AWD has been greatly reduced), which is very usefull for people who buy their first 911 or under rainy conditions and decreased grip surfaces.
It also depends on how powerful the car is, the more powerful the car is, the more it plays into the favor of the benefits of the AWD, thats why the 911 Turbo comes AWD standard but the fun N/A Carrera is not.

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Jun 29, 2005 1:24:50 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: ALDO

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

"I think nobody could feel the difference between a 997 S and a 997 4S in normal dry conditions."

I disagree. The C2S handles beautifully and the C4S understeers like a pig. The additional weight over the front wheels is the killer. It's almost impossible to get the back out, which is half the fun of a 911...

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Jun 29, 2005 2:09:18 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
Le Chef said:
It's almost impossible to get the back out, which is half the fun of a 911...

Only half?

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Jun 29, 2005 2:56:35 PM

Avantgarde: Senior; Loc: City State; Posts: 708, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Thanks for all your truthful comments...that's what I love about this forum.

I would love the 'fun' of the RWD car but I suppose with the safety net of half the wonder of the PSM even when its switched off, we could forgo the need of AWD....and save the extras on other stuff.

I have decided and already placed my booking deposit on a 997 C2S delivering in November'05.

Wish me luck

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Jun 29, 2005 3:12:42 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: ALDO

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

With my AWD Turbo you could feel the front wheels pulling you around a turn when the rear wheels started to slip (even on dry pavement) It's a very cool sensation. Gives you a lot more confidence.

I agree with the poster that said - If you can afford the C4S go for that one. The extra rear fender width is cool. The 305 rear tires are awesome and it's a newer version of the 997. Also since it's going to be a tip car w/ less of a track type gear box.

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Jun 29, 2005 3:47:52 PM

ALDO: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany; Posts: 3072, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
STRADALE said:
With my AWD Turbo you could feel the front wheels pulling you around a turn when the rear wheels started to slip (even on dry pavement) It's a very cool sensation. Gives you a lot more confidence.

I agree with the poster that said - If you can afford the C4S go for that one. The extra rear fender width is cool. The 305 rear tires are awesome and it's a newer version of the 997. Also since it's going to be a tip car w/ less of a track type gear box.

I did also own a 996 tt and the awd was something which was not the worst thing in my car. I own a international racing license and I have proved in competitions my driving capabilities. But driving with my rear part in 30* or 45* on a normal street is something I wouldn't do. Also if you rear part goes out of the ideal line you are loosing speed. For me it is loosing speed for some other it is fun. So everyone should decide on its own what she/he prefers.

AM

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Jun 29, 2005 6:24:03 PM

997S4KEN: Junior; Loc: Ventura, CA; Posts: 100, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 29, 2005; Reply to: ALDO

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Isnt 40% of the weight transfered to the front in serious twisty turning?? I wonder how the 9974S will compare to the old 996, I love the idea of more control and stability at the limit, but do these factors contribute to the 9974S not being a true Porsche. I respect the agility and precise steering, but if one chooses the AWD is he robbing himself of the real experience, or are the differences not that noticeabele. In my day to day I dont ever see myself pushing the car as hard as it was ever designed to be taken to. I really like the stability quotient though....

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Jun 29, 2005 7:00:28 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: 997S4KEN

Try before you buy, and try often!

A lot of these questions would become very easy to answer if everyone went along to their dealer and drove both cars and then decided. I originally came from an Audi S4 so in a back-to-back driving comparison the 996 C4S felt more stable and more familiar over the 996 C2.

After a fairly short period of ownership of the C4S I began to get frustrated by the large amounts of understeer I faced in each corner. I had the geometry checked and it was fine, so it was down to driver technique and the basic setup of the car.

In the end I compared my C4S to a C2 just 997's began to appear at the dealer. I realized that I should have gone with the C2 which now felt like it had sharper handling, and swifter responses, on top of steering that was more communicative. (I also don't track the car very often so these comments are not taken from extreme driving) I sold the C4S and ordered a 997S and believe for me it was the best choice.

Lessons learned:
1)go back and try the cars you're interested in more than once: after all this is a big purchase. The 911 IS different from anything else on the road so it takes some mental adjustment before you feel comfortable with it.

2) Try to get to do a DE with a friend who has a 911 (regardless of vintage) to get the idea of how the car responds

3)You don't NEED AWD for bad road conditions, even in Chicago, just the right tires and a more sensitive technique.

But if you can, try before you buy and try often.

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Jun 30, 2005 3:23:17 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14173, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
Le Chef said:
"I think nobody could feel the difference between a 997 S and a 997 4S in normal dry conditions."

I disagree. The C2S handles beautifully and the C4S understeers like a pig. The additional weight over the front wheels is the killer. It's almost impossible to get the back out, which is half the fun of a 911...

We are now talking about the 997 and , after reading a few of the firt test drives in Monze Carlo, it seems that it is different from the 996 C4S. The journalist from the Swiss automibile revue said he could not feel any difference between the C2S and the C4S , exept in very tight hair pins where he could feel the front traction. Otherwise the 997 C4S was feeling like the C2S....

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Jun 30, 2005 6:29:28 PM

Hurst: Veteran; Loc: Potomac, MD; Posts: 1255, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2005; Reply to: Gnil

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

I never understood the concept behind the C4S. A 4 wheel drive super-sports car is just not my idea of reasonable. 4WD < 2WD around a track. No questions. Granted, I own an A4, I would never buy a C4S...If I had weather problems where I lived, I would get a Cayenne or something of that variety.

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Jun 30, 2005 6:37:25 PM

ALDO: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany; Posts: 3072, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: Hurst

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
Hurst said:
I never understood the concept behind the C4S. A 4 wheel drive super-sports car is just not my idea of reasonable. 4WD < 2WD around a track. No questions. Granted, I own an A4, I would never buy a C4S...If I had weather problems where I lived, I would get a Cayenne or something of that variety.

The Gallardo shows us how fast a awd car can be (3 seconds faster then Porsche GT2 on Hockenheim with near the same power). We had have a lot of discussions what is faster on race track. An AWD is faster for an amateur a rwd could be faster for a profi. I don't know if you are a profi or not.

AM

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Jun 30, 2005 7:26:51 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: ALDO

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
mumbasic said:
Quote:
Hurst said:
I never understood the concept behind the C4S. A 4 wheel drive super-sports car is just not my idea of reasonable. 4WD < 2WD around a track. No questions. Granted, I own an A4, I would never buy a C4S...If I had weather problems where I lived, I would get a Cayenne or something of that variety.

The Gallardo shows us how fast a awd car can be (3 seconds faster then Porsche GT2 on Hockenheim with near the same power). We had have a lot of discussions what is faster on race track. An AWD is faster for an amateur a rwd could be faster for a profi. I don't know if you are a profi or not.

AM

2004 996GT2's Hockenheim lap time is 1:11,6 and the Gallardo's is 1:11,8

(and also several seconds faster at the ring too)

The Gallardo would be faster around the track without its viscous-coupling AWD (just like the 911 RWD is faster than the AWD equivalent) just less user-friendly with 500HP

If they do lauch a RWD version then we will see a further drop in lap times.

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Jun 30, 2005 8:14:40 PM

bluelines: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Argovia , Switzerland; Posts: 11655, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 29, 2005; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Go for Carrera S and add the 4S:s yourself = Sports Suspension, Sports Shifter, Sports Exhaust and Sports Seats

Add Sports Chrono as well while you are at it... now you got yourself a 'real' sports car

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Jun 30, 2005 8:16:06 PM

ALDO: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany; Posts: 3072, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Quote:
mumbasic said:
Quote:
Hurst said:
I never understood the concept behind the C4S. A 4 wheel drive super-sports car is just not my idea of reasonable. 4WD < 2WD around a track. No questions. Granted, I own an A4, I would never buy a C4S...If I had weather problems where I lived, I would get a Cayenne or something of that variety.

The Gallardo shows us how fast a awd car can be (3 seconds faster then Porsche GT2 on Hockenheim with near the same power). We had have a lot of discussions what is faster on race track. An AWD is faster for an amateur a rwd could be faster for a profi. I don't know if you are a profi or not.

AM

2004 996GT2's Hockenheim lap time is 1:11,6 and the Gallardo's is 1:11,8 (and also several seconds faster at the ring too)

The Gallardo would be faster around the track without its viscous-coupling AWD (just like the 911 RWD is faster than the AWD equivalent) just less user-friendly with 500HP If they do lauch a RWD version then we will see a further drop in lap times.

Sorry, you are right, I have looked at 996 tt times

:

Nordschleife 996 GT2 is 6,0 seconds faster
Hockenheim Gallardo is 0,8 seconds faster

Gallardo 3,2 kg/PS
996 GT2 3,13 kg/PS

I think the Nordschleife goes to the 996 GT2 because it has a better power/weight ratio and is lighter. For Hockenheim it must be the tracktion.
Or what do you think?

AM

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Jun 30, 2005 10:01:32 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: ALDO

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

In Hockenheim, the GT2 is still faster, though marginally. Generally its just as you say, in the ring, power-to-weight is a bigger influencing factor than in Hockenheim due to the high speed turns, long starights and uphills whereas Hockenheim is a smooth surface short modern track were track-handling is more important, though the ring's tarmac and varied combinations of turns is more representative of the real world street.

Due to the high average speed involved in the ring I believe the superior aerodinamics of the GT2 (positive downforce) also plays into favor of the GT2, along with sportier suspension settings and agility of the RWD. However, in the hands of an average driver, I believe he would be faster in the Gallardo thanks to the AWD , E-gear and electronic stability, cause the GT2 is fast, but a hadfull to control at the limit. These are lap times by profesionals to show the ultimate potential of these cars, but in our hands it may differ IMO.

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Jul 1, 2005 12:10:15 PM

s4to911: Newbie; Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA; Posts: 36, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 1, 2005; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Try before you buy, and try often!

Le Chef:

I too drove a minimally modded 2001 S4 (Giac chip, short shifter) for 5 years prior to my 911 S Cab purchase 3 weeks ago. I am keeping my S4. I am curious as to what other former S4 drivers think of the comparison to the 911.

One interesting thing that I noticed almost immediately is that the suspension in the S4 feels a lot firmer that the 911 S, even in sport mode. Not more responsive, just harder. Call me nuts (or maybe I have a sensitive rear end) but I would be curious as to what other S4 owners/drivers who now have 911s think.

This is probably a topic for another thread...

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Jul 1, 2005 1:27:47 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: Avantgarde

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

C4S

/uploads/115400-c4scockpit.bmp

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997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

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"More aggressive bumper?"

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Try before you buy, and try often!

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Re: Try before you buy, and try often!

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