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    CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Okay, enough time as passed I hope. No disrespect to the victims is intended. They were/are great men. I think we need to discuss this issue to learn what went wrong and move on. I do not know any credible facts of why the crash happened and how the vehicle held up. I have a need to know since I plan to be on the track and on the high mountain roads pushing it to the limit, if not in a CGT, certainly in a Porsche product. To live in fear is not to live at all. Please help me understand what happened, particularly if you were there or have access to the crash data. Thank you.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    My friend talked to an HRE rep (wheels), and he was in the Ferrari that was behind the Ferrari that pulled out in front of Ben. He said the Ferrari driver was waved onto the track. He started to go, but before he pulled out, he hesitated briefly and then went out. The moment the Ferrari pulled out onto the track, Ben was right there and made an instictive reaction to swerve, but ended up "losing control" and crashed..... This is what I was told.
    What could have been done differently??? by Ben, probably nothing. You choose to either plow directly into the Ferrari, or try to avoid the collision, at 150mph. The whole thing is very sad and unfortunate.
    What could the track have done differently?? Well, for one, I don't understand why the track "enterance" is near the end of the long 150mph zone.....just plain stupid.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    If anyone is uncomfortable with this please delete it, I mean no disrespect to anyone here.

    Also, I do not know the track at Fontana so this impression may be wrong, but the one thing that struck me most when looking at the NBC4 footage was how the concrete barrier is almost perpendicular to the track. About halfway through the video you can see a very wide shot of the scene where it seems like they were building some sort of stage, and temporarily moved the barriers to go around it. I think you can even see the prints on the grass of where the barrier used to be.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    I am still saddened by this tragedy.

    Did the CGT have racing style 3 inch wide belts in a 5 point set up? Since it has never come up to my knowledge, I guess Porsche doesn't have any "factory" way of attaching these belts to the chassis directly or through a factory harness bar. I think something's wrong when you can install a very clean factory race harness setup in a GT3 and not in a CGT with 200+ more hp.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Quote:
    Superbird said:the one thing that struck me most when looking at the NBC4 footage was how the concrete barrier is almost perpendicular to the track. About halfway through the video you can see a very wide shot of the scene where it seems like they were building some sort of stage, and temporarily moved the barriers to go around it. I think you can even see the prints on the grass of where the barrier used to be.


    Absolutely! This was a major cause of the loss of life, IMHO. Waving the F-car just in front of Ben was the spark that lit the fuse, but those temporary concrete barriers were the explosives

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    We defintely need to learn from this tragedy. I also wonder if both 5-point belts and a Hans device would have saved their lives? The car looked remarkably intact after such a high speed impact.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Quote:
    Yargk said:
    I am still saddened by this tragedy.

    Did the CGT have racing style 3 inch wide belts in a 5 point set up? Since it has never come up to my knowledge, I guess Porsche doesn't have any "factory" way of attaching these belts to the chassis directly or through a factory harness bar. I think something's wrong when you can install a very clean factory race harness setup in a GT3 and not in a CGT with 200+ more hp.


    Keith - they were just using the regular 3-pt belts (street), AFAIK. I think there are mounting points for harnesses, but they are sort of hidden and not mentioned in the owner's manual. I think in this accident they wouldn't have helped (too much speed into a fixed object). But, it might help someone else in the future to know that it's possible to fit harnesses (and neck restraints).

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    First at all, I think that the Fontana track management is to blame. C'mon, a concrete wall without any kind of protection with old tires or a sand/stones area between the wall and the track itself? These are actually the worst accidents, when you hit a solid barrier like a stone wall or tree. Chances to survive are very thin. I'm sorry to say that but Ben and Corey probably would have been much better off if they would have hit the Ferrari in front of them.
    Of course at that speed, there would have been the risk of heavy injuries and the Ferrari driver would have been hurt seriously too. But all of them would probably have survived.
    Of course this is plain theory, don't take it for a fact.

    I also heard somebody mentioning a blown tire on Ben's car, does anybody have any info on that?

    How can such a horrible accident be avoided? It is now easy for us to speculate, in real life situations, a lot of things can go wrong. And at high speeds, a fraction of a second can decide between life and dead. We should never forget that. One look to the co-pilot, a ringing phone, whatever can cause distraction. Calculate how far you travel in one second at a speed of 150 mph.

    1. know the car and most important know yourself and your driving skills.
    2. never drive at the limit, NEVER. It can work a few times but like my old army weapons instructor told us: a weapon always shoots by itself once in a lifetime.
    3. track racing should be fun. If you start to worry about track times and others being faster, you have to be careful. You may want to decide if you do it professionally with an appropiate car which has been prepared for REAL racing or if track racing is just a hobby to enjoy yourself. Competition is a nice thing but there will be always somebody who can driver better than you can drive. So don't try to achieve record times, unless you really want to become a professional driver.
    4. don't play around with technical setups, tire pressures, etc. unless you REALLY REALLY know what you're doing.
    Some setups are very specific to the track, car and driver, you just can't use them for your car. Don't use street tires for the track if you really want to race your car because you need to lower the tire pressure and sooner or later you damage the tires. Buy a second set of semi-slicks for example and if you have a favorite track, just leave the tire set there or nearby to be able to exchange the wheels quickly when you need it.
    5. don't experiment with brake system fluids or brake lines.
    You HAVE to know what you're doing if you're using a racing brake fluid. And most important: you have to replace it after racing.
    6. drive a few warm-up rounds, even if you know the track very well, especially if you lowered the tire pressure.
    7. if you get a weird feeling in the stomach during driving or you feel fear, even if you have the urge NOT to slow down, you're TOO FAST, slow down!
    8. if you want to learn how to drive, DO NOT try to learn it by competing against others to achieve record times.
    This is very dangerous. Try to learn during DE events, there are also specialized sports car driving schools with very skilled instructors. Those schools who let the drivers do what they want, are BAD schools. It helps most if you have an instructor driving in front of you and/or explaining certain situations through a wireless radio.
    9. there are a lot of hotshots on the track who try to be the fastest, the meanest or the "coolest" persons. They may even tell stories about their accidents, etc. These guys are usually nuts and have to be avoided during driving. Don't try to keep up with them, sooner or later, they'll crash...even if it happens after a month or a year. You don't want to be near them when this happens.
    10. drift training is something nice but actually worthless. A good driver actually learns how to AVOID a drift at the limit or near the limit because any drift would cause a time loss. Such events are fun and people love them but they don't really train you how to drive.
    People who did such "training" sometimes get the wrong feeling that they learned how to control their car at the limit. This is NOT true and can be a deadly false assumption.
    11. before using a track at full speed, drive the first round very slowly and try to find out if you feel safe on this track. Also try to evaluate the dangerous curves, escape routes, etc..
    12. NEVER take somebody with you when racing but if you have to (or want to), keep a cool head and don't try to prove anything. It is my experience that with a co-pilot, people seem to drive more reckless on the track because they want to leave a good impression. You don't need to do that, somebody who is brave enough to join you as a co-pilot, thinks you CAN drive. No need to show him any special "tricks".
    13. when your vision is compromised (heat, sweat, tireness, etc.) or if you feel dizzy or if you have your stomach turned upside down, slow down and forget about being the fastest. When you want to achieve record times, you have to have the feeling that you're in a PERFECT physical and mental condition. Otherwise the risk is too high.
    14. always be sure your car is in PERFECT (101%) technical status, including the tires. If you have ANY doubts about the technical condition (noise, certain feel, steering/wheel shimmering, whatever), DO NOT drive at the limit or even better: forget about track racing.
    15. the tires are your best friend and the only part of the car which actually physically connects the car to the pavement. DO NOT try to save money on tires, DO NOT play around with tire pressures if you don't REALLY know what you're doing and NEVER EVER drive through potholes or over boardwalks if you want to track race these tires. Also forget about buying USED track tires like semi-slicks from strangers, track buddies or even friends because you never know how they "treated" the tires.

    Sorry if I sound like a smart.ss to you but people who already know this stuff, should ignore it. Unfortunately there are a lot of drivers out there who don't have a clue about it and just take the risk, maybe even without knowing it.

    Ben's death was in my opinion one of those horrible situations of unfortunate fate nobody can really avoid.
    It can happen to anybody, this is probably one of the reasons why people who knew him are so moved by his tragic accident.
    But I still don't understand why that concrete wall was there, without any protection for the drivers. In the future, I would really try to alert the track management of such situations and if they play it down, talk to the other drivers and put pressure on the track management.

    Nobody is perfect and a lot of drivers loose control/leave the track, even during the most serious and well organized DE event. But this shouldn't result in something more serious than blown tires, scraped rims, some raw metal damages or undercarriage damage. With a certified helmet, the right seating position, certified seat belts and maybe even a certified roll cage, nothing bad can really happen. Well...maybe a little pride hurt...

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Not sure this is what I was looking for RC my friend and point no. 2 is entirely inconsistent with my 16-year profession (but if it works for you, go with it). I'm more interested in the track layout, where the point of decision was on the track. Velocities, etc. Thanks RC; you're cool. Did Porsche send a team to look into the matter? What did they find? What changes are being made at the track? Anyone has any post-accident interview info? What was the cause of death? What was the condition of the tires (good one RC)?

    PS Personal choice I know, but I think I would have made a choice to hit the wall rather than potentially kill others in another vehicle. I agree with you: tough choice no matter what.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    PS Personal choice I know, but I think I would have made a choice to hit the wall rather than potentially kill others in another vehicle. I agree with you: tough choice no matter what.


    I think a surprise (suddenly seeing the other car in your line) at that speed leaves very little room for a "decision". I think it was mostly a reflex

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    PS Personal choice I know, but I think I would have made a choice to hit the wall rather than potentially kill others in another vehicle. I agree with you: tough choice no matter what.


    I think a surprise (suddenly seeing the other car in your line) at that speed leaves very little room for a "decision". I think it was mostly a reflex



    There are a number of factors that contributed to this accident none of which relate to Ben and how he was driving the car. I am gathering information daily.

    Ben reacted as any one of us of would have and probably what professional drivers would have done. I doubt anyone could have saved the situation.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Quote:
    nberry said:Ben reacted as any one of us of would have and probably what professional drivers would have done. I doubt anyone could have saved the situation.


    I totally agree! If my post conveyed any other message, then I apologize.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Nick,

    Can you please keep us posted of your findings? Thanks.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Quote:
    Raz (NC) said:
    Nick,

    Can you please keep us posted of your findings? Thanks.



    Raz, not at this time. Once I feel it is appropriate, I will provide all the information.

    Grant I did not read anything into your comment. I was just indicating what has become clear to me.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Understandable, thanks.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Thank Nick. Greatly appreciated sir.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    Not sure this is what I was looking for RC my friend and point no. 2 is entirely inconsistent with my 16-year profession (but if it works for you, go with it). I'm more interested in the track layout, where the point of decision was on the track. Velocities, etc. Thanks RC; you're cool. Did Porsche send a team to look into the matter? What did they find? What changes are being made at the track? Anyone has any post-accident interview info? What was the cause of death? What was the condition of the tires (good one RC)?

    PS Personal choice I know, but I think I would have made a choice to hit the wall rather than potentially kill others in another vehicle. I agree with you: tough choice no matter what.



    There is little room (and even less time) to make the right choice in such a situation. Maybe I should try to explain it with the eyes of a Rallye driver: do you hit a tree and probably kill yourself and the co-pilot or do you exit the other way where a dozend spectators are standing and cheering. Well, imagine it or not, a tough decision. I was lucky I never had to think about it.

    If you don't agree with my above "warnings", you may have been very lucky over the past 16 years. Because any professional track driver I know actually lives by them. We're not talking about a game or kiddy play, we're talking about a very dangerous and challenging profession/hobby which sometimes demands it's tribute. Unfortunately.

    I still think that the track in Fontana wasn't safe looking at the pictures from the accident. But I'm pretty sure that the authoroties will do a thorough investigation. I don't know if Porsche sent a team to investigate the accident.
    If there is any indication for a blown tires or any other failure from the car itself, they may send somebody. Right now there doesn't seem to be any indication of that. There are so many Porsche accidents happening worldwide almost every day, these are high performance cars which sometimes are very challenging to drive. But I think this is exactly the reason why we bought them, right? Only a few weeks ago, we had a thread on the german forum regarding a 23-year old german who was killed in his GT3 RS near my home on the Autobahn. It was raining, he was on his way to a driver ed event on the Nordschleife when he probably slipped with his car on the wet pavement and hit the base of a stone bridge at a very high speed.
    These are actually the worst accidents: hitting a stationary obstacle like a stone wall or tree. Not much chances to get out alive.
    I was once hit by a car in my right front fender (I was going 65 kph, he was driving at over 90 kph) on a public street, I had 3(!) consecutive roll-overs from this impact and finally slipped another 150 m on the roof until the car (on the roof of course) stopped. I stepped out of this car with two broken ribs only (I found out about the broken ribs one week later because I refused to go to the hospital, stupid me) and the car was COMPLETELY destroyed, it looked much more horrible than Ben's car. I was lucky, the whole "energy" was "consumed" by the roll-overs and the slipping, the impact to my body was not that bad. I also had an accident during a racing event in a professional Group N car when I hit a metal barrier along the curve (to prevent cars from going down a hill) when drifting at around 180 kph.
    Again, the whole left part of the car was completely destroyed, the door was gone but I hadn't even a bruise.

    I agree with Nick, I think Ben did what he could do but in such a situation, you're lucky if you can do anything. And finally, I wasn't there and we all have to rely on speculations, pictures and claims of spectators.
    I think we should just wait until the investigation is over, maybe somebody could try to find out for us the final result from the authoroties (Nick?).

    But one thing has to be clear and PLEASE, never forget that, no matter if you have a one year or twenty years driving experience: what happend to Ben can happen to ANY of us ANY TIME. Keep this in mind and drive safely.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    But one thing has to be clear and PLEASE, never forget that, no matter if you have a one year or twenty years driving experience: what happend to Ben can happen to ANY of us ANY TIME. Keep this in mind and drive safely.



    Well said RC.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Quote:
    ha said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    But one thing has to be clear and PLEASE, never forget that, no matter if you have a one year or twenty years driving experience: what happend to Ben can happen to ANY of us ANY TIME. Keep this in mind and drive safely.




    There is an on going investigation which will includes a complete inspection of the car and interviewing of all witnesses. In addition, it involves review of video.

    When it is appropriate and with the permission of the family I will be happy to share the findings. I am sure Ben would have wanted it to be shared with all of you particularly if anything instructive can be passed on.

    BTW, I also agree with Christian (RC) regarding how we drive our cars.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    thank you for keeping all of us informed nick.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Yes Nick, please do.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Holminator, I understand your interest in learning from this accident.
    As Grant, RC and others have already pointed out, Ben's accident was a freak mix of unfortunate events. Not rare events, but very unfortunate ones.

    You can't really learn anything from a Ferrari pulling out in front of Ben.
    You can't learn not to react as a reflex as 99,9% of us would have: Try avoiding the car in your path.
    You can't learn how to control a car at 150 mph on damp grass, and you can't learn from the track management putting up a perpendicular concrete wall where it shouldn't be.
    I think the only thing we can deduct from this is "enjoy every minute" and "be safe".

    The only advice I can give you is this:
    Check out the layout of the track thoroughly before racing, and be aware of potential death traps and/or technically challenging areas.

    I never knew Ben at all, but for someone I never knew, I can tell you his sad passing certainly has been on our lips a lot in my home.
    Not just the first hours when the shock hit most of us, but on a regular basis when driving.
    The other day I was doing appr. 230-240 km/h (appr. 145 mhp) on a completely empty freeway on a stretch with no off or on-ramps....when suddenly I got to think of Ben and Corey's accident.
    As much fun as I had at that speed, I lifted the foot and crawled down to around 80-90 mhp. I just hit me that things happen when we least expect them to. A deer passing, a lapse in your concentration, a technical glitch...pick one.

    Living in fear will kill us slowly.
    Fearing death will keep us alive.

    Holminator. I don't mean to philosophize (is that an actual word...??) this debate, but I do believe your question calls for a more philosphical answer than a technical one.
    Hope this helps.


    And to Nick.
    I never got a chance to say I'm sorry for your personal loss.
    I realize you knew Ben personally and saw him on a regular basis.
    If you need to vent send me a PM. I'm not too shabby a listener.
    (No clever remarks now, anyone...ok?)

    I hope we can all start remembering Ben for the positive he did while living, and let time take care of the all too vivid images of his departure from this life.
    When my father passed I remember standing in the graveyard spotting a inscripted tombstone saying "in deep sorrow". And I remember saying to myself: "Why would they create an eternal monument of sorrow - instead of celebrating this man's life?".

    Let's be realistic here. There are two sorts of sorrow and shock in this case. Those of us who didn't know Ben or Corey but still feel affected because we are forced to stop and think "it could have been any of us" and "life is so fragile" - and those of you who actually knew Ben via this board or even a lot better than that. I suggest Ben's friends and regular debators on rennteam decide when it is appropriate to dissect his accident.
    Im not sure we can learn very much. I think it's the wrong crowd to preech the apparent to: Don't go 150 mph.

    No matter which group you belong in - please be sensiblee when you enter your sportscar.
    Remember: It can make your day or seal your fate.

    Peace and be safe

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Dr. Phil, thanks for the offer.

    I happen to believe the the track is the appropriate place to run high performance sport cars. What disturbed me about Ben's accident is IT HAPPENED ON A FRICKIN TRACK!Generally, on a track you can anticipate danger points and take action to avoid them.

    However, on a street there are an untold number of hazards none of which a driver can reasonable anticipate which can lead to a serious accident.

    Dr. Phil driving a 145mph on a public highway is basically playing Russian roulette with your life. We all have done it with our cars. But would we do it with a gun? There is no difference from a risk standpoint.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    No problems with differing views, friend, but I don't think you understand my meaning.

    In the US miltary, we do believe we can change reflex actions and prevent the mind from shutting down in extremely stressful situations. I have been taught to change reflex actions and it has saved my life more than once. If a loser like me can learn, anyone can learn. We have also learned from the most extreme and the most basic of accidents of high performance vehicles in the air, on the ground, on the water, and below. I encourage all of us to leave emotions at the door and objectively view the facts. That was my purpose, not a request for the basics of safety first or getting advice on how to drive over the Internet (the last source for such advice I would ever consider). It is illogical to assume there is nothing to learn without examining what has happened. I would only like to see the facts, not a treatise on how to drive a car for an 18-year old. It is arrogant to assume I do not know what I am doing behind the wheel without knowing my drivers education level and vocation. I would not do this to any of you. Please give me the respect I give you. Hope I have not offended my sport car brothers and sisters.

    Reviewing the technical facts is not about assigning blame (at least that is my intent...don't know if someone has a different agenda). It's about learning and making changes. There is always something to learn in all affairs.

    Nick, I hope you can share the technical facts soon. I think your concern for the families is admirable. I always thought you were a good man.

    th

    PS To those of you, who become afraid when you drive fast lately because of Ben and Corey, this makes no sense to me unless you were at the track on that day. You should not be suffering from post-tramatic stress, and if you really are second guessing yourself behind the wheel instead of just whining like you are, you really are going to end up dead. Pardon my harshness, but I think some of us may be dramatizing their death. I have seen many people die right in front of me. I am not some tough guy (you've seen my posts here...macho, bravado'ism is not my line of thought), but I do not understand how some people could be so "shaken up" for weeks over the death of a gentleman they hardly knew. Please knock off the drama. Well, I guess I'll be banned for that comment, but in this case it was worth it. I saw the same kind of fake emotionalism when 7 of my friends (real friends) were blown up in the Pentagon, and people, who didn't even know what Church the victims went to were suddenly claiming to be close friends. What BS. They were emotionally distaught over their deaths for months. Weird. Unless you were at the track that day or unless you really were close friends with Ben and Corey, could you give it a rest please? If the technical facts will never make it into this thread, I hope this thread is either locked, deleted, or burned to the ground because right now I don't see a useful purpose regarding my original intent. All I see is BS male positioning from a handful of posters in this thread. You disappoint me. Now I must practice what I preach about leaving my emotions at the door. Excuse me gentlemen and ladies.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    Okay, enough time as passed I hope. No disrespect to the victims is intended. They were/are great men. I think we need to discuss this issue to learn what went wrong and move on. I do not know any credible facts of why the crash happened and how the vehicle held up. I have a need to know since I plan to be on the track and on the high mountain roads pushing it to the limit, if not in a CGT, certainly in a Porsche product. To live in fear is not to live at all. Please help me understand what happened, particularly if you were there or have access to the crash data. Thank you.



    Original question stands.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Mike. I guess you didn't exactly leave your emotions at the door on that one
    Sorry if my "advice" came out as useless touchy-feely POVs.
    I must admit I have a hard time seeing what the technical evidence in this case can teach us. I'm not saying they can't. I'm saying I can't see that right now.
    My philosophical POVs were honestly offered as the only advice I could think of in this situation. I'll leave it up to others to provide better technical info.

    You're absolutely right, that the right training (and lots of it) can mean the difference between life and death in these situations. Maybe the data you're after can shed some light on a possible "if only..." scenario thus providing us with some do's and don'ts when on a track.
    I think people are generally afraid of discovering facts that may suggest that the accident could have been smaller or totally avoided thru the right technique.
    On the other hand - if others can learn from this, maybe something good can come from it after all.

    You're right on the money regarding the mourning and PTSS when people you don't know die. I think you're a bit more "struck by life" than me in that respect. I haven't had very many friends, family or relatives who died.
    And from a rational POV you're absolutely right, that it is BS when people claim sadness and sorrow when someone they didn't know dies.
    However, we all react differently in different situations and I think the reason why people reacted the way they did to Ben's death was the fact that it's chiseled in our minds that he died from doing what he loved...and we all draw parallels to our own very similar love for cars.
    I think it's that simple and banal. "It could have been me".

    And yes, getting paranoid over this accident will definately NOT help the situation (I.e. keeping the accident in mind when driving).

    I'm not really sure why you're getting annoyed with our posts here.
    I honestly meant what I said and the conclusions I deducted from the accident.
    We all have different perspectives on specific things and also see life in general thru our own respective lenses.
    I don't think the guys in here are giving you the run-around - but I believe the people who have the facts are nor ready to share yet.

    Sounds like an interesting line of business you're in...guess you could tell me about it, but would have to kill me if you did, right?

    To Nick: From a PC standpoint of course you are right regarding speeding on the freeway. Yes, it is russian roulette, be it on the freeway or on a speedway.
    Going straight and fast on an empty freeway or an empty speedway is more or less the same thing. If things go seriously wrong you're often screwed both places. But yes, a track might have an ambulance close by and better safety procedures and remedies. But sadly that isn't always the case, as Ben's accident so clearly demonstrates.

    Like I said the conditions of my hypothetical 145 mhp run were perfect and of course things can go horribly wrong in the blink of an eye. I think it's pretty hard to be PC when owning a Porsche - I for one sure don't play by the speed limit-rules on the freeway. That said, it goes without saying that speeding in school districts, towns, and driving with your brain in the glove compartment is moronic.

    I've chosen a Porsche and thereby chosen the inherent risk this car has. You get tempted to go anywhere from a bit to a lot too fast at times.
    My only ground rule is; if you wanna risk someone's life going fast, let it be your own and only your own.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    May I add to the speed discussion that the german Autobahn, one of the last places worldwide without a speed limit, is actually the SAFEST street over here.
    Most deadly accidents happen on country roads and in the city, not on the Autobahn.
    However: a public street where a general speed limit is in effect CAN be dangerous when speeding because other people don't expect such high speeds and don't pay enough attention. During my trips to the US, I saw many crazy people driving on the highway and especially in the early evening hours, while I was doing aroun 85 in a 70 zone, some cars (including SUVs and Honda Civics) passed me at speeds way over 100 mph and much more.
    Not to forget about the "zig-zag" most of these drivers were doing, from the far left lane to the far right lane and back...on a highway with five lanes for each direction. In Germany, passing other cars on the right lane of the Autobahn is forbidden by the law. Only in traffic situations where the traffic is moving slowly (traffic jams with lots of cars one behind each other), you're allowed to SLOWLY pass the cars on the left. I'm afraid a lot of german car drivers don't really know that (or maybe they don't care) and I always have some dickh..d passing me on the right and putting himself in front of me in my safety braking distance space between me and the car in front of me. This sometimes drives me nuts.

    Is it safe to drive 150 mph? Yes, it is. But only if you REALLY know what you're doing, if your car is in a perfect technical condition and if the other traffic doesn't pose a danger. But like Dr. Phil said: unfortunate events can happen and there is no 100% safety, no matter how good or bad one drives.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    The simple truth is that we will never know what really happened.

    I do know that limit driving is a skill that is an acquired one thru seat time and not any other way. Sadly, Ben to my knowledge, and from what I've read and heard, did not have that kind of experience. Having the means to own a CGT, and driving fast does not build the skill set of high speed handling and control.
    Being on the gas and presented with the surprize of a slow moving car appearing ahead, an abrupt lift and steering correction, could very well unsettle the car and create a trailing throtle oversteer condition and from that point on the diver then becomes a passenger.

    Tragic

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Quote:
    Trundle997S said:
    The simple truth is that we will never know what really happened.

    I do know that limit driving is a skill that is an acquired one thru seat time and not any other way. Sadly, Ben to my knowledge, and from what I've read and heard, did not have that kind of experience. Having the means to own a CGT, and driving fast does not build the skill set of high speed handling and control.
    Being on the gas and presented with the surprize of a slow moving car appearing ahead, an abrupt lift and steering correction, could very well unsettle the car and create a trailing throtle oversteer condition and from that point on the diver then becomes a passenger.

    Tragic



    Hold on! Ben had more experience than most. Also you are assuming that Ben encounter a slower car in front of him. Not so!

    RC I must disagree with your last post regarding it is OK to do 145mph SO LONG AS THE DRIVER KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING. That is exactly the wrong way to think because knowledgeable drivers cannot anticipate everything( unless your God) that could happen at those speeds. ANY hazard encounter will morely than likely cause a major accident and probably lead to serious injury.

    Re: CGT Track Crash Analysis--What Really Happened?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Also you are assuming that Ben encounter a slower car in front of him. Not so!

    RC I must disagree with your last post regarding it is OK to do 145mph SO LONG AS THE DRIVER KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING. That is exactly the wrong way to think because knowledgeable drivers cannot anticipate everything( unless your God) that could happen at those speeds. ANY hazard encounter will morely than likely cause a major accident and probably lead to serious injury.



    Nick, I heard the same: no slow Ferrari in front of Ben, I don't know where this story came from. I'm still interested in that "blown tire" theory which came up at a certain point.

    Regarding the safe or not safe at 145 mph: like I said before, the Autobahn is the safest street in Germany.
    Of course there can be a hazard: a drunken driver who suddenly moves to the left when I pass him at 170 mph (this can happen at 100 mph too with the same results). A deer or a fox which can cause a lot of damage. A blown tire or any other technical issue. But all those things can happen at lower speeds too.

    High speed driving doesn't require only experience, it requires certain skills and a SAFETY PARANOIA.
    I'm very very "anal" about my tires and the technical condition of my car. I also learned to anticipate the reaction of other drivers around me, this is actually the MOST DIFFICULT part of driving. Call it instinct, call it experience, call it luck, whatever. It is there. And there is also a "physical" advantage: eye sight. I have an eye sight power of over 175%, I can see letters on a car's license plate from almost half a mile away. This helped a lot with high speed driving.

    I don't say it is 100% safe, no way. But I feel safer at 170 mph in my Cayenne Turbo on our Autobahn than at 80 mph in a Lincoln Navigator on the I-95 from Fort Lauderdale to Miami. All critical driving situations I have had, happened in the city. Stupid pedestrians, drivers not looking what is next to them, housewifes kicking my cars in the b.tt on a parking lot, etc. Never had a critical situation on the Autobahn because I anticipate what can be anticipated. Of course I can't anticipate a UFO crashing on the Autobahn or some crazy guy who has to run naked over the lanes but I still think that driving at high speeds is only dangerous if you don't do it the right way, meaning: using the right car, at the right moment, in the right conditions.
    I never drive high speed when I have a bad feeling (traffic, car, stomach... ) and it works fine.

    Regarding Ben: I don't know him but I wish I knew him personally. It is sad that I never go the chance to speak to somebody THAT passionate regarding cars.
    I can't say anything about his driving skills, there are people who know him better and know much more about him.
    Only one thing: I would have NEVER driven a car in full traffic one-handed in a drift with the phone in the left hand at my ear. You get my point. We did one-handed driving as training lessons and although I really considered myself a professional driver by that time (many years ago), I failed sometimes and hit the plastic obstacles we were supposed to drive around one-handed. And I'm talking about a car with 300 HP and 4WD, not 612 HP.

    But maybe we should just stop for now and wait until we learn more from an (official?) source.
    And finally: does it really matter what really happened? A wonderful person has suddenly dissapeared from our lives and a lot of us still feel his absence. If people want to make sure they live forever, they shouldn't leave the house anymore.
    Today I saw the weirdest scene standing at a red light.
    A woman on a heavy motorcycle accelerated from standstill, first, second, crrrrrrrk, mis-shift, rear tire slips away, the motorcycle slips in circles for about 50 meters and the woman lies on the ground (she was wearing a helmet and a leather suite). I wanted to enter the interesection with my Cayenne and turn on the hazard lights to protect her from coming cars but to my surprise, the woman stood up, took the motorcycle, put it on it's wheels again with the help of a trucker who stopped before hitting her and surprise, surprise, she drove away. This is fate, she had nothing, apparently no bruises, absolutely nothing. She could have been dead by now if she would have hit a street lamp (there was one in her vicinity) or if the truck behind her couldn't stop in time. FATE. Unavoidable fate.

    We should consider ourselves very lucky that we are still here and are able to exchange our thoughts.

     
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