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Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
At least Tom Kristensen won his 7th Le Mans as the first and only driver ever.
Dont tell me Danes can't drive
Yup, they do great going around and around and around. Now if they just had somewhere to drive to, they could really get somewhere
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
At least Tom Kristensen won his 7th Le Mans as the first and only driver ever.
Dont tell me Danes can't drive
Yup, they do great going around and around and around. Now if they just had somewhere to drive to, they could really get somewhere
You remind me of that old Monty Python sketch: "I'd like to buy an argument"...
I have a sneaky feeling you do this for a living...?
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Beaten again at Le Mans by Corvette who placed 1,2 in GT1 and 5,6 overall behind the Audi LMP R8 cars.
No fun not seeing a Porsche running in GT1 class.
Get's great credential for the upcoming Z06, that car is gonna kick some ass around, it's gonna be really impressive.
Was two weeks in Houston and the city is flooded with C6, I like it, style and noise at least, did not drive though.
It's great for Corvette that they win Le Mans, they follow Porsche's track!
How did Porsche do in their category?
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Fanch, I dont think Porsche had any cars in the GT1 class, simply because they dont have a street based design that is as fast as F,AM and C. If they do, they must be invisible.
Porsche does have flocks of GT3's in the GT2 class, in fact its pretty much a Porsche GT3 parade in that lower class.
Porsche does have flocks of GT3's in the GT2 class, in fact its pretty much a Porsche GT3 parade in that lower class.
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Beaten again at Le Mans by Corvette who placed 1,2 in GT1 and 5,6 overall behind the Audi LMP R8 cars.
No fun not seeing a Porsche running in GT1 class.
Guys, the Z06 is going to have a dramatic impact on how the world views US sport cars vis-a-vis European sport cars. By most accounts,the Z06 will be not only be a top performer in acceleration but absolutely bullet proof on a track with a GM warranty to back it. It will give you the best of both worlds.
Based on the information I am receiving, the car will outperform the 430 and more than likely the 997TT. All at a price of less than one half to 2/3 cheaper. Thank God for exclusivity and Italian styling.
I guess Porsche can fall back on reliability but based on recent surveys, they may have a problem with quality.
Regarding Le Mans, Porsche could care less. They continue to sell cars on past ancient achievements. 
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Beaten again at Le Mans by Corvette who placed 1,2 in GT1 and 5,6 overall behind the Audi LMP R8 cars.
No fun not seeing a Porsche running in GT1 class.
Guys, the Z06 is going to have a dramatic impact on how the world views US sport cars vis-a-vis European sport cars. By most accounts,the Z06 will be not only be a top performer in acceleration but absolutely bullet proof on a track with a GM warranty to back it. It will give you the best of both worlds.
Based on the information I am receiving, the car will outperform the 430 and more than likely the 997TT. All at a price of less than one half to 2/3 cheaper. Thank God for exclusivity and Italian styling.
I guess Porsche can fall back on reliability but based on recent surveys, they may have a problem with quality.
Yes that is true on both counts, re the Z06 and re Porsche.
Which proves how successful Porsche was in racing!
Porsche is in good health, for now and for many years, but it would definitely not be as successful as today if it wasn't for their racing heritage.
Now about the Z06, it will not have the image of the 997 Turbo or F430, but who cares, what a car it will be!!! I am really looking forward to it!
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Fanch, I dont think Porsche had any cars in the GT1 class, simply because they dont have a street based design that is as fast as F,AM and C. If they do, they must be invisible.
Porsche does have flocks of GT3's in the GT2 class, in fact its pretty much a Porsche GT3 parade in that lower class.
that's the class I was referring to.
I know that unfortunately, no more GT1 class for Porsche since the mighty 911 GT1.
But how about the GT2 class with all the 911 GT3 etc?
The Corvette is in the GT1 class??? I would have thought it competes with the Ferrari 360 and Porsche 911 no?
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
Fanch said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Fanch, I dont think Porsche had any cars in the GT1 class, simply because they dont have a street based design that is as fast as F,AM and C. If they do, they must be invisible.
Porsche does have flocks of GT3's in the GT2 class, in fact its pretty much a Porsche GT3 parade in that lower class.
that's the class I was referring to.
I know that unfortunately, no more GT1 class for Porsche since the mighty 911 GT1.
But how about the GT2 class with all the 911 GT3 etc?
The Corvette is in the GT1 class??? I would have thought it competes with the Ferrari 360 and Porsche 911 no?
Yes, the Corvette is in the GT1 class. Its toooo powerful to run in GT2. The Ferrari 355/360 and Porsche 911 motors are simply too weak to compete against. Displacement does matter!
Although Porsche builds beautiful motors and Ferrari does also, maybe this little bit of information will help everyone.
The Chevrolet "small block" V8 is capable of generating massive amounts of horsepower and torque, and this will shock you all: a Corvette V8 motor weighs 50lbs LESS than
a Porsche aircooled 993 series engine. A 7 liter from
a Chevrolet V8 racing engine can produce 700hp with out turbocharging, supercharging, etc.. For Le Mans racing,
the motors are detuned and actually use restrictors etc., to LOWER power. Also it REVS well, 7100 on the street car and to 9000 on the race car without the heavier DOHC systems
of its competitors. Also with out the DOHC wich it doesnt need to use, it has a lower weight and mass than its V10, and V12 competitiors.
For the street Z06 C6, it generates more torque at near IDLE,than a BMW M5 V10 engine does at its max torgue output
at I think 6000rpms.
If you say fine, but I only want a motor with sophisticated 4 overhead cams, GM has one ready and has had it ready since 1970. Developed by Oldsmobiles Racing Division, the DOHC 8 liter V8 generates near Volcanic power that would even make Merceds AMG blush, 900hp without turbochargers.
It was developed for the Can Am series cars then,but Can Am unlimited class folded before it could be used. So, if you can find a racing class for it, please write Bob Lutz, EVP Products at GM because Im sure he would like to know someplace to use it !!!!
There is no doubt that Porsche produces the better finished and prettier car when it comes to paint and interiors. Maybe Porsche should consider have its Exclusive department work on Corvettes, or use the C6 motors Corvette motors in the Cayenne and Boxster
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Beaten again at Le Mans by Corvette who placed 1,2 in GT1 and 5,6 overall behind the Audi LMP R8 cars.
No fun not seeing a Porsche running in GT1 class.
Guys, the Z06 is going to have a dramatic impact on how the world views US sport cars vis-a-vis European sport cars. By most accounts,the Z06 will be not only be a top performer in acceleration but absolutely bullet proof on a track with a GM warranty to back it. It will give you the best of both worlds.
Based on the information I am receiving, the car will outperform the 430 and more than likely the 997TT. All at a price of less than one half to 2/3 cheaper. Thank God for exclusivity and Italian styling.
I guess Porsche can fall back on reliability but based on recent surveys, they may have a problem with quality.
Thank you Nick, now even you get it, LOL.
Just to let you know, I have never owned a Corvette in my life, only Porsches and never have even liked Corvettes.
When Porsche 911's weighed 1000-1400lbs less than a Vette, Porsche had no problem destroying Corvettes on the street or track. Now that the weight advantage is GONE and the engine and brake and tire technology is about equal, its even obvious to fossil like me that a 3100lb Corvette with 505 hp is gonna be quicker and faster than a 400-500hp
3300-3500lb 911 or F430.
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Now that the weight advantage is GONE and the engine and brake and tire technology is about equal, its even obvious to fossil like me that a 3100lb Corvette with 505 hp is gonna be quicker and faster than a 400-500hp
3300-3500lb 911 or F430.
WHOA! Jim, stop!
You're beginning to make sense and use rational arguments!
What's the matter with you? Stop it! You're scaring me!
I believe it's the same old debate about the branding of the cars.
I'm more and more convinced that GM has built a great sportscar with the Vette, but I'm equally convinced that it will take a great deal of time before potential buyers of a Porsche will consider the Vette a serious alternative.
No, let me rephrase that, cuz I'm actually SURE many will go for the Vette if they cannot afford a Porsche with the same power.
And I don't mean this as "poor people buy a crappy Vette", but simply that Porsche's image - the Porsche brand is much, much more sought after than that of the Vette.
Forget logic and rational arguments.
I'm sure head-to-head the Vette is technically gaining on its Porsche counterpart, but brand-to-brand it simply is in a different league.
A recent survey in the US concluded that Porsche was the most sought-after car brand. Ferrari wasn't even on the survey - which leads me to conclude that the survey was limited to car models/brands with a lower pricetag than Ferrari. I'm pretty sure they would have shown up on that survey somewhere in the top 5.
Ask yourself if you would honestly - HONESTLY - pick a Corvette over a 911 or even a Cayman or 987 if money wasn't an issue.
If money WAS/IS an issue, would you pick the Vette, buy a smaller/used P, or wait till you could afford a P?
Jun 20, 2005 7:18:34 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
nberry said:
Guys, the Z06 is going to have a dramatic impact on how the world views US sport cars vis-a-vis European sport cars.
I agree but just one correction, the US is not the world. The Z06 will only affect US, its not sold in Europe and the base C6 costs $100,000 here, yeah the base C6!
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Beaten again at Le Mans by Corvette who placed 1,2 in GT1 and 5,6 overall behind the Audi LMP R8 cars.
No fun not seeing a Porsche running in GT1 class.
Guys, the Z06 is going to have a dramatic impact on how the world views US sport cars vis-a-vis European sport cars. By most accounts,the Z06 will be not only be a top performer in acceleration but absolutely bullet proof on a track with a GM warranty to back it. It will give you the best of both worlds.
Based on the information I am receiving, the car will outperform the 430 and more than likely the 997TT. All at a price of less than one half to 2/3 cheaper. Thank God for exclusivity and Italian styling.
I guess Porsche can fall back on reliability but based on recent surveys, they may have a problem with quality.
Thank you Nick, now even you get it, LOL.
Just to let you know, I have never owned a Corvette in my life, only Porsches and never have even liked Corvettes.
When Porsche 911's weighed 1000-1400lbs less than a Vette, Porsche had no problem destroying Corvettes on the street or track. Now that the weight advantage is GONE and the engine and brake and tire technology is about equal, its even obvious to fossil like me that a 3100lb Corvette with 505 hp is gonna be quicker and faster than a 400-500hp
3300-3500lb 911 or F430.
Your argument is based on the supposition that corvette is telling the truth with regards to their weight. And we know manufactures lie. Besides that, the corvette is front engined and having a ton of torque can making the tail end get very squirelly. We'll see...
Jun 20, 2005 7:34:55 PM
- JimFlat6
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
nberry said:
Guys, the Z06 is going to have a dramatic impact on how the world views US sport cars vis-a-vis European sport cars.
Just one correction, the US is not the world. The Z06 will only affect US, its not sold in Europe and the base C6 costs $100,000 here, yeah the base C6!
Carlos, acoording to Bub Lutz of GM they do intend to sell
the Z06 in Europe, even its navi screen commands have been
programmed into German, French and Spanish. At what price I do not know or in what quantities, or what prices include VAT or not for the C6. However, it may end up like the Ford GT where European dealers have raised the "street market price" of the Ford from 185,000 to 220,000 USD by buying up cars off US dealers.
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Now that the weight advantage is GONE and the engine and brake and tire technology is about equal, its even obvious to fossil like me that a 3100lb Corvette with 505 hp is gonna be quicker and faster than a 400-500hp
3300-3500lb 911 or F430.
WHOA! Jim, stop!
You're beginning to make sense and use rational arguments!
What's the matter with you? Stop it! You're scaring me!
I believe it's the same old debate about the branding of the cars.
I'm more and more convinced that GM has built a great sportscar with the Vette, but I'm equally convinced that it will take a great deal of time before potential buyers of a Porsche will consider the Vette a serious alternative.
No, let me rephrase that, cuz I'm actually SURE many will go for the Vette if they cannot afford a Porsche with the same power.
And I don't mean this as "poor people buy a crappy Vette", but simply that Porsche's image - the Porsche brand is much, much more sought after than that of the Vette.
Forget logic and rational arguments.
I'm sure head-to-head the Vette is technically gaining on its Porsche counterpart, but brand-to-brand it simply is in a different league.
A recent survey in the US concluded that Porsche was the most sought-after car brand. Ferrari wasn't even on the survey - which leads me to conclude that the survey was limited to car models/brands with a lower pricetag than Ferrari. I'm pretty sure they would have shown up on that survey somewhere in the top 5.
Ask yourself if you would honestly - HONESTLY - pick a Corvette over a 911 or even a Cayman or 987 if money wasn't an issue.
If money WAS/IS an issue, would you pick the Vette, buy a smaller/used P, or wait till you could afford a P?
Whooooa Dr. Phil
Docta Phil, I will let you in on a big secret!
Fast cars are like Gunfights: There Are No Second Place Winners!!!!!
As to the "Brand" thing. I remember when the "masses"
didnt even know what a Ferrari or Porsche WAS! Luckily for me I grew up in a part of Cali where Porsches were, are, pretty vin ordinaire and seemingly commonplace.
Now, every little girl wants a Porsche and every bad azzz hip hopper wants a Bentley. The whole luxury brand market composed of "lovemark" products is so promoted, publicized and visible that its no longer a totally exclusive and rare aspiration in the consumer market. It maube still in Europe, but here its not anymore. So the whole Porsche and Ferrari cache has been diluted by over exposure here.
What to choose for 100k - 110K US, money not being an issue? For the price of a heavily optioned 997 Cab, you can get a BOTH a new Z06 and a Boxster. Boxsters are great cars, its probably the best convertible sports car ever made for its price range.
Paying Z06 money for a Cayman with a few options doesnt seem to make any sense. The Drivers skill and experience being equal, the Z06 is a no brainer over a much slooooooooooooooooooooooooooower Cayman. Its really difficult to 100% buy in on the whole Porsche "style and class" argument, because of knowing that the Factory in the
60's and 70's used hot rodded Pontiac stationwagons as chase cars for their engineers doing r/d work. Herr Pieches favourite car was a 914 with a flat8 and Ferrys last personal Porsche before he died was a 986 tiptronic with Conda green opaint and green leather.
At one time in history, Porsche was way far ahead in horsepower wars, at least on the track with engines that dynoed at 1500hp.If the Can Am series hadnt collapsed, you would have seen 1500hp Porsche and Oldsmobile 8 liter quad cam V8 (not joking!) engines battling it out. For your edification, here is this bit of flat 12 technology:
http://www.vintagerpm.com/porsche_history.htm
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
svtrader1 said:Your argument is based on the supposition that corvette is telling the truth with regards to their weight. And we know manufactures lie. Besides that, the corvette is front engined and having a ton of torque can making the tail end get very squirelly. We'll see...
The Corvette Z06 really does weigh 3131 lbs in street trim. It's Porsche and Ferrari who fib about their weights. My 2002 C2 was specced at 2,965 lbs but they all weighed over 3,200 lbs in street trim (997 weighs even more).
Jun 20, 2005 8:42:56 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Carlos, acoording to Bub Lutz of GM they do intend to sell
the Z06 in Europe, even its navi screen commands have been
programmed into German, French and Spanish.
The C5's Z06 wasn't sold here, but its would be good news if they do sell the C6-Z06 though, not that I would buy a Corvette but its good competition that will force other makers to improve further. Problem is the price, if the bone stock C6 is 100k (needlesst to say, it doesn't sell, apart from the image it has here) imagine the Z06 version which is even further apart from its base Vette version than the previous gen.
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
svtrader1 said:Your argument is based on the supposition that corvette is telling the truth with regards to their weight. And we know manufactures lie. Besides that, the corvette is front engined and having a ton of torque can making the tail end get very squirelly. We'll see...
The Corvette Z06 really does weigh 3131 lbs in street trim. It's Porsche and Ferrari who fib about their weights. My 2002 C2 was specced at 2,965 lbs but they all weighed over 3,200 lbs in street trim (997 weighs even more).
FYI, the C6, which is what the Z06 is based on, weighs more than the curb weight Corvette claims. So, would you care to explain how you know this for a Fact?
Jun 20, 2005 9:04:22 PM
- JimFlat6
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Carlos, acoording to Bub Lutz of GM they do intend to sell
the Z06 in Europe, even its navi screen commands have been
programmed into German, French and Spanish.
The C5's Z06 wasn't sold here, but its would be good news if they do sell the C6-Z06 though, not that I would buy a Corvette but its good competition that will force other makers to improve further. Problem is the price, if the bone stock C6 is 100k (needlesst to say, it doesn't sell, apart from the image it has here) imagine the Z06 version which is even further apart from its base Vette version than the previous gen.
I agree, It would make no sense to pay $100K for a C6 vette. The image thing may take years to overcome, if at all.
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
svtrader1 said:Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
svtrader1 said:Your argument is based on the supposition that corvette is telling the truth with regards to their weight. And we know manufactures lie. Besides that, the corvette is front engined and having a ton of torque can making the tail end get very squirelly. We'll see...
The Corvette Z06 really does weigh 3131 lbs in street trim. It's Porsche and Ferrari who fib about their weights. My 2002 C2 was specced at 2,965 lbs but they all weighed over 3,200 lbs in street trim (997 weighs even more).
FYI, the C6, which is what the Z06 is based on, weighs more than the curb weight Corvette claims. So, would you care to explain how you know this for a Fact?
Its simple explanation. Onlike the standard C6,The fenders are carbon fiber instead of fiberglass, the chassis uses magnesium pieces, and many other parts are magnesium and titanium. Further, its dry sump lubricated motor sits lower and further back than a standard C6, and with its 6spd REAR transaxle, the basic layout is essentially almost a front, mid engine car, like some TVR designs.
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:Quote:
svtrader1 said:Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
svtrader1 said:Your argument is based on the supposition that corvette is telling the truth with regards to their weight. And we know manufactures lie. Besides that, the corvette is front engined and having a ton of torque can making the tail end get very squirelly. We'll see...
The Corvette Z06 really does weigh 3131 lbs in street trim. It's Porsche and Ferrari who fib about their weights. My 2002 C2 was specced at 2,965 lbs but they all weighed over 3,200 lbs in street trim (997 weighs even more).
FYI, the C6, which is what the Z06 is based on, weighs more than the curb weight Corvette claims. So, would you care to explain how you know this for a Fact?
Its simple explanation. Onlike the standard C6,The fenders are carbon fiber instead of fiberglass, the chassis uses magnesium pieces, and many other parts are magnesium and titanium. Further, its dry sump lubricated motor sits lower and further back than a standard C6, and with its 6spd REAR transaxle, the basic layout is essentially almost a front, mid engine car, like some TVR designs.
Simple? The engine is bigger, the brake rotors and calipers are bigger, the exhaust is bigger, the wheels and tires are bigger and there is a lubricant cooling circiut for the differential. All these things add weight.
Also, drag coefficent will be higher.
It's going to be interesting, but, I'm not expecting to be blown away.
Re: Aston, Ferrari Lose Again
...and with regards to the exclusivity discussion, i would like to remind our american friends that driving a z06 in Germany or Italy is much (!) more exclusive than any Porsche and maybe even Ferrari. There will be many more 997 gt3s and TT on the road here than corvettes. was at a little party on lake Como some weekend ago, the parking lot plastered with 996tts, 997 anf sl 55. a z06 would have been a stunner!
you just need to have the balls to show up with that car, the image here is still catastrophic. my (ex-)girlfriend said she's never put foot in a corvette, girls can be such b...
cheers
you just need to have the balls to show up with that car, the image here is still catastrophic. my (ex-)girlfriend said she's never put foot in a corvette, girls can be such b...
cheers
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