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    Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

    Quote:
    nberry said:I could not have said it any better! If you factor in the horrible depreciation of Porsche's in the US, the rip off is biblical. It is one thing to make a very good car but another to build in a profit margin which rapes the buyer.

    BTW, if taking that position is being a communist, consider me a devotee.


    Rape requires one of two things - forced or underage. I assume that Porsche did not grab your checkbook and make you buy a car. So I guess that Nick is, in fact, 13 years old as he appears to be from his posts.

    Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

    Successful companies partner with buyers by providing a product which their customers want at a fair price. Additionally they provide value.

    Porsche presently has a monoply on this market segment. Rather than protect its client base, they pillage it. Not only do they have the highest mark up in the industry but they over produce. Thus Porsche has profits margins which no other manufacturer would consider.

    The downside to this approach is the customer is left holding the bag financially.

    I am for reasonable profit margins. More importantly, I am for providing value to customers. Can any one honestly say that Porsche is providing value? Yes they are providing a product many want but they are ravishing the buyer who wants it.

    Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Successful companies partner with buyers by providing a product which their customers want at a fair price. Additionally they provide value.

    Porsche presently has a monoply on this market segment. Rather than protect its client base, they pillage it. Not only do they have the highest mark up in the industry but they over produce. Thus Porsche has profits margins which no other manufacturer would consider.

    The downside to this approach is the customer is left holding the bag financially.

    I am for reasonable profit margins. More importantly, I am for providing value to customers. Can any one honestly say that Porsche is providing value? Yes they are providing a product many want but they are ravishing the buyer who wants it.



    Nick nick nick.....

    So what is the right $$$ formula for sub 100K modern sports cars?

    Enlighten us please, especially for those who lease and those who dont keep it longer than the warranty period.

    Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

    ... (yawns) ... Porsche makes an unbeatable product, hence they are very successful and "can" sell higher volumes than other makers that "can't" hence they don't and are left to play the limited-volume left over game which really rapes buyers trying to get into the game who have to bend over at the dealership pay inflated prices, outrageous maintenance fees, and delaler dictated vehicle usage if you don't want to loose all your money on resale. And what do you know, the company Porsche even makes a profit out of it unlike those "others". As simple as that... (yawns) ... of course success raises bitterness and resentfulness from "others" that may take it upon themselves to defend the Porsche sportcar customer while not even onwning one or having any afiliation... go figure what their interests or motivations behind such obsesive devotion are

    Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

    Quote:
    Radar said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:I could not have said it any better! If you factor in the horrible depreciation of Porsche's in the US, the rip off is biblical. It is one thing to make a very good car but another to build in a profit margin which rapes the buyer.

    BTW, if taking that position is being a communist, consider me a devotee.


    Rape requires one of two things - forced or underage. I assume that Porsche did not grab your checkbook and make you buy a car. So I guess that Nick is, in fact, 13 years old as he appears to be from his posts.



    Oh, to be young and idealistic (and wrong)!

    Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Successful companies partner with buyers by providing a product which their customers want at a fair price. Additionally they provide value.

    Porsche presently has a monoply on this market segment. Rather than protect its client base, they pillage it. Not only do they have the highest mark up in the industry but they over produce. Thus Porsche has profits margins which no other manufacturer would consider.

    The downside to this approach is the customer is left holding the bag financially.

    I am for reasonable profit margins. More importantly, I am for providing value to customers. Can any one honestly say that Porsche is providing value? Yes they are providing a product many want but they are ravishing the buyer who wants it.



    Nick nick nick.....

    So what is the right $$$ formula for sub 100K modern sports cars?

    Enlighten us please, especially for those who lease and those who dont keep it longer than the warranty period.



    Jim,

    I think this is the formula Nick would like to see:

    Porsche cuts production by 90% and charges one percent over cost to provide "value" to the customer.

    Dealers realize how the supply/demand curve works and starts heavily marking up their cars. PAG realizes this isn't fair to them and makes the dealers charge MSRP.

    Customers have to form secret deals with dealers to get on a "waiting list" to buy a Porsche. Secret deals like buying the GT2 sitting in their showroom. Forcing the buyer of a new Porsche to sell it back to the dealer for a pre-determined profit (which also happens to be below market). (Actually, that sounds like rape) Also, telling the customer to make sure there aren't too many miles on the car. Customers feel important because they're on the A-list.

    <So far, this sounds like the strategy of another car company who I won't name, but starts with letters Ferrar_.>

    Then shareholders of Porsche start pulling their money out of Porsche and start investing in CD's becuase they realize they can get a better return on their investment.

    Then, Porsche goes bankrupt. People lose their jobs.

    Nick is happy. He's no longer threatened.

    Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

    Quote:
    RC said:
    This is why I don't understand Porsche at all sometimes: I would have gladly paid 10000 Euro more for a 997 Carrera S with let's say 390 HP and a few enhancements.




    You should be a consultant for Porsche.

    Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

    "if" the 997 turbo has DSG or 6 speed the car will be about the same weight??? would this mean the DSG turbo will be a better performer (spec sheet times)

    Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

    It may in straigh-line acceleration: the DSG has the potential to be faster in upshifting than the manual with less interruption of power in the shifts leading to slightly improved acceleration times (as is the case for example with the Golf DSG vs Golf manual, the DSG version is faster in acceleration like 0-60).
    Also the 997TT's DSG version may come with 7 gears which would also improve acceleration further since it would have closer ratios for faster acceleration without the penalty of the power interuption of more shifting. But the fact that it may have 7 gears like the BMW's SMG-III is pure speculation at this point.
    So yes, if done right, the double-clucth secuential (DSG type) is faster than a manual.

    Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

    very interesting! when I order my 996 turbo the TIP had no chance.have to wait and see what the 997 turbo brings.

    what do you think about the adapative suspension vs. the H&R springs I have on my car?? 19's all around. 295/30 on the rear, the 997 turbo should have 305/30 stock (maybe bigger)

    Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

    To early to say about the 997TT's suspensions but if the 997S improvement vs 996 is any indicative, it will be one clear step ahead of the 996TT no matter what springs you put on it, just hope they also offer a -20mm equivalent for the 997TT.
    The new 997C4S already has 305 sized rears, so the 997TT will have at least width that or more

    Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

    if this margin of improvements holds true from 996 to 997s, then the 997 turbo will be an off the chart winner!!! I owned a 01' 996 before my 03' turbo and the 05' 997s is a HUGE improvement over my 01' C2. If the 997 turbo follow this margin of improvment I will be very happy. this time I won't have to change the wheels or springs

    Re: FYI I'm NOT communist


    Oups .... my post was just a bit provocative based on hard numbers but it wasn't reflecting my own opinion.

    FYI I do own a Porsche (so I have been "ripped-off" as well) and I should admit that I like it and I'm highly likely to buy another one in the near future.... so I'm incorrigible.

    My idea was just to say, they have a great business model (unlike other car makers), they can charge very high prices and grow sales as well... This year will be another record year for the group while other ones are struggling.

    By the way, our american friends are "subsidized" by European and rest of the world customers .... Prices in the US don't reflect the currency weakness. In order to maintain a very level of profits, because Porsche is charging less in the US, they are charging more every where else ...

    Re: FYI I'm NOT communist

    Quote:
    because Porsche is charging less in the US, they are charging more every where else ...




    ....which only seems fair, really.

    And, EricAlain, in spite of the fact that you are currently from France, I have never thought you were a communist!

    Re: FYI I'm NOT communist

    Quote:
    EricAlain said:

    Oups .... my post was just a bit provocative based on hard numbers but it wasn't reflecting my own opinion.

    FYI I do own a Porsche (so I have been "ripped-off" as well) and I should admit that I like it and I'm highly likely to buy another one in the near future.... so I'm incorrigible.

    My idea was just to say, they have a great business model (unlike other car makers), they can charge very high prices and grow sales as well... This year will be another record year for the group while other ones are struggling.

    By the way, our american friends are "subsidized" by European and rest of the world customers .... Prices in the US don't reflect the currency weakness. In order to maintain a very level of profits, because Porsche is charging less in the US, they are charging more every where else ...



    Porsche has in place a strategic currency hedging plan that has allowed US pricing to weather currency fluctuations and that also has been very profitable to Porsches overall bottom line.

    There is no national VAT here, but we do have additional sales tax and auto licensing fees that vary from state to state.

    Overall cars are cheaper to buy, insure and license here
    because the automobile market is so huge and auto dealer
    operating costs, payroll and corp taxs are also way lower.

    Bear in mind that just three states here: California, New York and Florida consume 25% of Porsches output. All up, I think that the US accounts for 40-50% of all new porsche sales.

    Re: FYI I'm NOT communist


    Correct, I now live in France, but I spend 6 years in the US, this is may be why I have intoxicated by the "free market spirit" ....

    Pre-tax prices are cheaper in the US than what they should be in relation to the $/ Euro parity just because the US market is much more competitive and there is right now no room for Porsche to increase selling prices ...

    The US market is much more efficient because it's one large unified market, while in Europe we are talking about 17 (now 25) different markets with their own set of rules, languages, currency (for many) .... So the cost of doing business in Europe is much higher than in the US hence higher selling prices.

    Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

    I find all these charges of "rip-off" very funny....I don't remember anyone's arm being twisted to pay the asking prices for Porsche's, or any other brand for that matter....

    Re: Ferrari F-40, 1315 sold

    Quote:
    964C2 said:
    I find all these charges of "rip-off" very funny....I don't remember anyone's arm being twisted to pay the asking prices for Porsche's, or any other brand for that matter....



    Correct. Once you've written the check, you've made an implied admission that you're not about to be "ripped-off".

    Re: FYI I'm NOT communist

    I just wanted to put my two cents here as I conducted a research report on Porsche and the sources of the company's income (we dorky analysts have nothing better to do, I know). Porsche makes more profits on its currency hedging then it does off 911 sales, which was pretty shocking when first revealed by our competitor at Goldman Sachs. Porsche is benefitting from the exchange rate fluctuation as they have properly hedged (or rather, bet) the correct amount on different currencies. This is a partial explanation as to why prices in the US have remained steady as compared to the rise in price internationally. Because Porsche bets against the dollar, the recent dollar downtrend has resulted in deeper pockets for Porsche. There is no need to raise US MSRP when their hedges are paying off at a far greater rate. It's a basic concept, ingeniously executed.

    GM could learn a little from Porsche :-D

    Okay I'm done with my two cents, I'm glad to be on the RennTeam board!

    Re: FYI I'm NOT communist

    thanks for the input ajcastaneda(wow it took me long to type that) but like socal alan said above, once you've written the cheque, you've accepted the fact that you're about to be ripped off

    Re Profits from Hedging....

    This is absolutely true that currently Porsche is making more profits of their past currency hedging policy than selling cars. It has nothing to do with being genius .... it just has to do with luck.
    Porsche is systematicaly hedging 3 years out .... so currently they are benefiting from hedging instruments that were bought in 2002 when the exchange rate was much more favourable (for Europeans ie weak Euro and strong dollar). Today they are fully hedged until end of FY 07/08 ....

    We also have to recognize because they are making a lot of profits, they can afford very expensive and sophisticated hedging instruments like options on options. As a result they benefit from a great flexibility and if the dollar is to strengthen they'll be able to "dump" the options and go on the spot market ....

    I don't believe their hedging policy is influencing MRSP in the US. The current environment in the US is very competitive and it is extremely difficult (not to say impossible) to raise prices. Right now none of the luxury makers (Europeans or Jap) are able to raise prices .... that's the way it is.

    I think Goldman's point of view to say that Porsche is an "investment bank" that happen to make luxury cars is a bit harsh.

    Re: FYI I'm NOT communist

    Mike S,

    Oh I wrote the check and I could care less if people thought I was ripped off - when I take delivery of my 987 S in September and get to 6500 RPM, hearing the symphony from beneath me validates the check...I don't mind paying for quality. So if that means I was "ripped-off" well then fine, I was ripped off and I enjoyed it. :-)

    Re: FYI I'm NOT communist

    exactly, how i feel, except i got ripped off $100k more than in most countries, but same feeling as you have none the less

    Re: Re Profits from Hedging....

    That was Goldman's opinion..I'm with their competitor Morgan Stanley I absolutely concur with your take that Porsche does have the advantage of being able not only top afford options but the options on those options. As I said, since hedging is essentially a bet, luck is definitely a huge factor in determining success. However, I say ingeniously executed because when comparing their currency hedging strategies with other car manufacturers, they are obviously more profitable. Intelligent planning/strategy or luck? Probably a little bit of both.

    This is starting to sound like a finance course.. :-)

     
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