Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Engines - Page1

Jun 9, 2005 9:39:26 AM

BC: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Cape Town , South Africa; Posts: 2586, Gallery; Registered on: May 19, 2005

Engines

Hey all...
this is my first post on the cayman forum so hope i can chat to you guys aswell...

This is maybe a question that most of you guys know the answer to already, but why did Porsche spend loads of cash developing a new engine for the CaymanS, while there already is a excellent engine in they could use from the boxsterS???
was it just so they could emphisize the fact that it's not just a boxster coupe and that it's a completely different car(to a certain extent)??

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Jun 9, 2005 9:58:13 AM

ray911: Co-Pilot; Loc: NRW, Germany; Posts: 152, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 26, 2003; Reply to: BC

Re: Engines

Maybe I am wrong,
but I would expect that this is just the old (maybe slightly modified) 3.4 M96 engine which the 996 originally had before its facelift. The "enhancement" is probably that they just
"detuned" from 325 to 295 BHP to not endanger the basic 996/997 models.

If the Cayman is a financial success and if the base 997 gets some power update for the next makeover, they might offer the real power of about 310-325 BHP to the Cayman.

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Jun 9, 2005 11:12:33 AM

KenH: Co-Pilot; Loc: Leesburg VA; Posts: 249, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 23, 2004; Reply to: ray911

Re: Engines

1. It is almost certainly not a completely new engine.
2. It helps justify the price increase over the Boxster S.

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Jun 9, 2005 11:43:31 AM

Boxster Coupe GTS: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 5886, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2005; Reply to: KenH

Re: Engines

The new Cayman engine has the following spec...

+ Engine = flat-6 boxer engine, mid-engined, water-cooled
+ Displacement = 3,386cc
+ Bore = 96mm
+ Stroke = 78mm
+ Power = 295bhp (217kW) at 6,250rpm
+ Torque = 250lb-ft (340Nm) at 4,400-6,000rpm
+ VarioCam Plus (variable valve timing + variable intake camshaft control)
+ Weight = 1,350kg
+ Drag coefficient = 0.29 Cd
+ Ouput per litre = 87.1 bhp per litre
+ Power to weight = 218.5 bhp per tonne
+ Top speed = 171mph (275km/h)
+ 0-62mph = 5.4 secs

...according to Porsche!

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Jun 9, 2005 11:44:36 AM

Boxster Coupe GTS: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 5886, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2005; Reply to: Boxster Coupe GTS

Re: Engines

The original 996 engine had the following spec...

+ Engine = flat-6 boxer engine, rear-engined, water-cooled
+ Displacement = 3,387cc
+ Bore = 96mm
+ Stroke = 78mm
+ Power = 300bhp (221kW) at 6,800rpm
+ Torque = 258lb-ft (350Nm) at 4,600rpm
+ Variable valve timing
+ Weight = 1,320kg
+ Drag coefficient = 0.30 Cd
+ Ouput per litre = 88.6 bhp per litre
+ Power to weight = 227.3 bhp per tonne
+ Top speed = 174mph (280km/h)
+ 0-62mph = 5.2 secs

...according to Porsche!

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Jun 9, 2005 12:17:07 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59602, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: BC

Re: Engines

Like the others said: the Cayman S engine isn't really a completely new engine. And it allows bigger power figures for the future, like 310-315 HP for the facelifted version of the Cayman.

A Cayman Turbo has been also rumoured for some time but it may be a high power (Cayman GT?) version "only" with around 330 HP and no Turbo. Let Porsche surprise us...

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Jun 9, 2005 12:40:11 PM

BC: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Cape Town , South Africa; Posts: 2586, Gallery; Registered on: May 19, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: Engines

Thanks, quite interesting...
any chance we'll see a cabriolet version???
Just kidding

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Jun 9, 2005 1:44:07 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Engines

Quote:
RC said:
Like the others said: the Cayman S engine isn't really a completely new engine. And it allows bigger power figures for the future, like 310-315 HP for the facelifted version of the Cayman.
A Cayman Turbo has been also rumoured for some time but it may be a high power (Cayman GT?) version "only" with around 330 HP and no Turbo. Let Porsche surprise us...

I think the "old" GT3 MkI motor with 360hp would be a nice choice. If we can't have a dry-sump motor, then how about the new 3.8L from the 997S (powerkit X51 added would be even better), once the power levels go up in a couple years for the 997...

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Jun 9, 2005 2:25:49 PM

MikeN: Senior; Loc: Arizona; Posts: 595, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: Engines

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
RC said:
Like the others said: the Cayman S engine isn't really a completely new engine. And it allows bigger power figures for the future, like 310-315 HP for the facelifted version of the Cayman.
A Cayman Turbo has been also rumoured for some time but it may be a high power (Cayman GT?) version "only" with around 330 HP and no Turbo. Let Porsche surprise us...

I think the "old" GT3 MkI motor with 360hp would be a nice choice. If we can't have a dry-sump motor, then how about the new 3.8L from the 997S (powerkit X51 added would be even better), once the power levels go up in a couple years for the 997...

All this would be nice, but IMO has about a .00001 chance of happening. Todays Porsche just doesn't do things like this. The 3.4 is a detuned version of the first 996 mill, and no doubt Porsche meant it to only have 295HP so several small, planned, incremental HP bumps can be made over the Caymans life span. The Cayman will most likely keep the 295 rating for a few years, and then get a bump.....so will the 911 and Boxster. I just don't see Porsche dumping a mega 997/GT3 engine in the Cayman at all. A lightweight CS version with a small increase in power for the 3.4 may happen, but I don't see anything more exciting than this. In fact I see the next release of a Cayman being the base model.

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Jun 9, 2005 2:27:37 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59602, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: MikeN

Re: Engines

Quote:
MikeN said:
In fact I see the next release of a Cayman being the base model.

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Jun 9, 2005 4:18:23 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Engines

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
MikeN said:
In fact I see the next release of a Cayman being the base model.

RC - I know that the next Cayman will be the non-S with perhaps a 3.0L motor. Do you think the RS or Clubsport version (if it happens) may get a dry-sump and be a real track car or do you think they'll protect the 911 marque by keeping the Cayman RS below the 997S?

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Jun 10, 2005 12:45:04 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: Engines

A base model Cayman would make sense for those who are willing to race it. Just get rid of the luxurious (and very heavy) items, weld a roll-over cage and off you go for a "reasonable" price ....

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Jun 10, 2005 3:27:36 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: Engines

Quote:
EricAlain said:

A base model Cayman would make sense for those who are willing to race it. Just get rid of the luxurious (and very heavy) items, weld a roll-over cage and off you go for a "reasonable" price ....

Eric - you are right, but to really race it with a regular motor, you would need to make some modifications to the wet sump motor to prevent oil starvation with slick tires

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Jun 10, 2005 4:44:32 PM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: Engines

No more than you would need for a regular 997

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Jun 10, 2005 4:58:20 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59602, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: Engines

I'm always amused to read something about oil starvation, driving slicks, etc.
99% of the people who own a 997 or even a Boxster, would never put slicks on their cars. The more sporty drivers usually drive semi-slicks like the Corsa, etc.
The remaining 1% may add slicks but are they really able to drive a 997 or Boxster at the limit with slicks? I doubt it.
Because if they could, they would own something else.

And a final word regarding the oil starvation "issue" which actually isn't one (and I explain why): most cars on the streets out there, including some pretty fast ones like the BMW M3 or even the new M5, actually have the SAME oil starvation "issue". Like probably 95% of the other so called sports cars out there on the market.

I think Porsche just over-reacted a little bit with the oil starvation thing on the 996, especially since I've heard that the 997 and even the Boxster have been improved substantially and even with slicks, there isn't much chance to destroy the engine. Unless you're Walter Röhrl or Michael Schumacher and drive the hell out of your car. But who would do that in a 997 C2/C2S, Boxster or even the Cayman? I wouldn't.

I also don't understand why people want to look upon the Cayman like a club racer or a Boxster "light". It isn't and I didn't hear of any plans to race the Cayman professionally. And if people think that the Cayman may "threaten" the 997 on the track, they may be right...in professional hands maybe. And no wonder: the Cayman has been developped by the same people who developped the 997.
Not without a reason, the Cayman design somehow reminds people, especially non-Porschephiles, of the 911. How else could Porsche want to sell 10000 pieces a year of a product which actually is "just" a Boxster without soft top and with a fixed roof. In my opinion, this was a very clever marketing decision, I just hope that it works out for them. My dealer doesn't have a single Cayman order/pre-order yet.

The Cayman may sell well in the US but over here in Germany, people still want the "real" thing, the 911. It is like a curse for Porsche...Porsche = 911.

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Jun 10, 2005 5:21:04 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Engines

Quote:
RC said:
And a final word regarding the oil starvation "issue" which actually isn't one (and I explain why): most cars on the streets out there, including some pretty fast ones like the BMW M3 or even the new M5, actually have the SAME oil starvation "issue". Like probably 95% of the other so called sports cars out there on the market.

I think Porsche just over-reacted a little bit with the oil starvation thing on the 996, especially since I've heard that the 997 and even the Boxster have been improved substantially and even with slicks, there isn't much chance to destroy the engine. Unless you're Walter Röhrl or Michael Schumacher and drive the hell out of your car. But who would do that in a 997 C2/C2S, Boxster or even the Cayman? I wouldn't.

I may be sensitive to this issue, since every 911 before the 996 had a dry-sump and the wet sump motors from Porsche like the 944/951/968 had ALOT of oiling problems at the track with DOT-R tires (number 3 rod bearing failures) which totally ruined the motors.

Having the dry sump on all 911's used to mean you really had a nearly track-ready car from the showroom with minor upgrades. Upgrading the oil system is not minor...

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Jun 10, 2005 5:35:56 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: Engines

The whole Cayman, Boxster and 997 marketing and vehicle content issue is really only a issue to hard core Porsche enthusiasts. Most of Porsches "casual" customers could care less.

I can give up wanting a dry sump lube system for a street car, but I would like a dipstick to be able to check the oil manually and a key lock on the passengers door. And if having a spare wheel and tire means a .09 slower lap at the ring and adds $75 dollars to the price who cares?????

If you follow any of the Porsche boards with an eye to tracking RMS, intermediate shaft, oil seperator and oil filler neck (a 7 piece tube,WTF engineering is that) failures, you can see a lot of failures!

You dont read about so many failures happening to GT1 based engines, so maybe Porsche could make a few improvements to the M96 engine???

The good news is that new model Porsches continue to provide better performance than previous ones.

If they would just add a few of the logical features of
previous Porsches to the new ones, buyers with a memory
for technical stuff wouldnt feel short changed somehow
when buying a new one.

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Jun 11, 2005 12:42:12 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59602, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Engines

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
You dont read about so many failures happening to GT1 based engines, so maybe Porsche could make a few improvements to the M96 engine???

Cost issue? Do me a favor and go to your local Porsche dealer. Ask him about the price tag (parts computer) of a M96 engine and the price tag of a let's say 996 GT3 engine.
You may find the reason for not offering the GT1 based engine in the "breadn'butter" 911s.

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Jun 12, 2005 2:12:40 PM

KenH: Co-Pilot; Loc: Leesburg VA; Posts: 249, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 23, 2004; Reply to: RC

Cost and price are not the same thing

If a GT3 engine is priced at twice as much as the M96 engine that does not mean that it costs twice as much to make. Porsche prices its spare parts in the same way as it does its cars, what the market will bear, and they have done so for years.

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Jun 12, 2005 2:58:13 PM

MikeN: Senior; Loc: Arizona; Posts: 595, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2004; Reply to: KenH

Re: Cost and price are not the same thing

Quote:
KenH said:
If a GT3 engine is priced at twice as much as the M96 engine that does not mean that it costs twice as much to make. Porsche prices its spare parts in the same way as it does its cars, what the market will bear, and they have done so for years.

Very true, but given the costs of dealing with just the RMS issue (probably thousands of replacements, and hundreds of engines swapped) even if a GT3 type engine was more expensive to build.....might the savings on the service end have paid for it? Might a more expensive engine and a less aggressive profit margin paid for itself years down the road with less service and warranty costs?

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Jun 12, 2005 6:03:54 PM

KenH: Co-Pilot; Loc: Leesburg VA; Posts: 249, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 23, 2004; Reply to: MikeN

Re: Cost and price are not the same thing

Quite possibly, but there is always the chance that there are some skeletons lurking in the GT3's cupboard too.

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Jun 12, 2005 10:16:42 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: KenH

Re: Cost and price are not the same thing

Quote:
KenH said:
If a GT3 engine is priced at twice as much as the M96 engine that does not mean that it costs twice as much to make. Porsche prices its spare parts in the same way as it does its cars, what the market will bear, and they have done so for years.

I think it's almost 4x as expensive and I do believe that it's at least 2x as expensive to make, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to develop the M96...

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Jun 13, 2005 8:32:30 PM

KenH: Co-Pilot; Loc: Leesburg VA; Posts: 249, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 23, 2004; Reply to: Grant

My first lesson in Porsche parts pricing...

.. was a very long time ago, back in the "dark ages" when I owned a 924 Carrera GT. As was common on that model the plastic rear add-on wheel arches tended to straighten out (ie the curvature reduced over time) and rub on the outside of the rear tires.
The rear wheels on this model used spacers that were the same as those used on the 944.
I had a brainwave and ordered a pair of the wheel spacers from the 928 that were (from memory) about 3mm thinner.
The 944 spacers were something like 15 GBP each but the 928 parts were over 200 GBP each! And they were exactly the same castings but just machined very slightly differently.
I learned from this that cost, price and value were not always related. I sent the 928 spacers back and paid a local machine shop 5 GBP to skim the original spacers by 3mm.

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My first lesson in Porsche parts pricing...

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