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    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:

     

    gold2.jpg

     looks like the lime gold interior from the 981


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I think that Sport Classic wheel has a very simple design but actually works (and looks) better than the Sport Desgin wheel in the 911...the thing is, will we see the Sport Classic wheel available to the Carrera range?


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Are those clear glass taillights a la 997?  They look better than the standard red ones.  I wasn't a fan of the clear on the 997, but I think that they suit the 991 nicely.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    hussainh1:

    Are those clear glass taillights a la 997?  They look better than the standard red ones.  I wasn't a fan of the clear on the 997, but I think that they suit the 991 nicely.

    I saw the clear taillights on a couple of 991 but I think they look best on a white car, don't know why.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I think the light color makes it look more appealing. Probably looks good on white or silver.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I think it might be a good sign that Porsche is holding back on Turbo/Turbo S performance.

    Perhaps, they are holding it back for 960.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC, If you are going for Agate Metallic paint color, consider a Agate/Orange all leather interior.:


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I don't know about holding back for the 960, I think that's still a bit away.  Plus it doesn't seem like a smart business move to hold back on something that defines your company for something that may or may not be a successful future model.  

    I think engineering wise, technology is improving at such a rapid rate that by the time the 960 comes out, there may be superior tech that would allow Porsche do to it's own special things with the car, whatever that may be.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Jean:

    I think it might be a good sign that Porsche is holding back on Turbo/Turbo S performance.

    Perhaps, they are holding it back for 960.

    I would rather think GT2 and GT2 RS than 960. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

     A little correction regarding the ECU type/manufacturer: It is NOT Siemens but Bosch with the ME 7.8.1. 

    Sorry about this confusion...

    The ME 7.8.1 is similar to the 997 Turbo (pre-facelift), which could be an advantage for tuners. As far as I remember, the 997 Turbo/Turbo S facelift uses the Siemens SDI3 but I'm not 100% sure about it.

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Interesting (just found out): Bore and stroke seem to be the same on the Turbo/Turbo S and the new GT3.

    Also interesting (not sure if this has been mentioned already): The redline of the Turbo engine is at 7000 rpm, the redline of the Turbo S at 7200 rpm.

    Just a few fun facts...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Took the liberty of taking SportsCarGroup's picture posted earlier in this thread to properly compare the width of the 991 Carrera to that of the 991 turbo.
    image (2).jpg


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:

    Interesting (just found out): Bore and stroke seem to be the same on the Turbo/Turbo S and the new GT3.

    Also interesting (not sure if this has been mentioned already): The redline of the Turbo engine is at 7000 rpm, the redline of the Turbo S at 7200 rpm.

    Just a few fun facts...

    Hmm... You wont be too happy with this... I emailed my P source yesterday with few questions about 991 Turbo/Turbo S. Here are few interesting answers:

    -difference between Turbo and Turbo S power wise is software only. But, there is a blockade that prevent Turbo S software to be uploaded to Turbo model.

    -engine is based on 991 Carrera S engine, NOT on new GT3 engine. It is using integrated dry sump system(aka multi pumps wet sump) as on Carrera 3.8 engine. Also, bore and stroke is the same on all three engines(Carrera 3.8, Turbo and GT3).

    -PDK gearing is almost the same as on 997.2 Turbo PDK.

    -new Turbo S is faster then 997.2 Turbo S. How much faster in 0-300km/h I directly asked? Little bit faster was direct answer...

    -new Turbo S is capable for very good to excellent Ring time. Do you expect below 7.30min Ring time in Sport Auto Supertest my direct question. NO, direct answer.

    -PTM is more capable then before and redesigned. Still, it is on normal road as much RWD biased on power delivery as before.

    -apparently rear wheel steering and new PTM setup are crucial(with that active aerodynamics) for much improved Ring time.

    -new 991 Turbo is very fast from standstill. OK. Is it any faster in 200km/h-300km/h then SLS AMG GT, 458 Italia or MP4-12C? Answer was NO. You will need new 991 GT2 to beat those cars.

    Point is that new 991 Turbo S is as fast as SLS AMG GT, 458 Italia and little bit slower then MP4-12C for less money and is most practicle sportscar in its class. Hmm... Most practicle sportscar in its class...

    I still like new 991 Turbo/Turbo S pretty much. Honest answers from my P friend is a welcome thing.

    Little supriese: he wrote directly-buy basic 991 Turbo. In normal use it is almost as fast as Turbo S.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    kiss thanks for the update.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Thanks Kreso

    i'm disappointed more again for the costs,a good Turbo run around 180K Euros,and a Turbo S 205K,too high the jump from the 997 TT/TTS.

    A 911 at 200k must destroy the car of his league,a 991 GT2 will costs 230/240K ,and you play over again.enlightened

    I'm waiting (hope) good news for the GT3 RS,if not i will leave the 911,and for me is not so easy,i love this car.


    --

    997TT RS Tuning stage II,2011 Cayenne Turbo


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    KresoF1:

    Hmm... You wont be too happy with this... I emailed my P source yesterday with few questions about 991 Turbo/Turbo S. Here are few interesting answers:

    -difference between Turbo and Turbo S power wise is software only. But, there is a blockade that prevent Turbo S software to be uploaded to Turbo model.

    I mentioned that before if you remember. However, the Bosch Motronic software is apparently easier to deal with than the Siemens ECU software. Of course I am pretty sure that encryption/coding sophistication has improved with Bosch too... No dealer can simply upload the Turbo S software to the Turbo, same goes to tuners. The Turbo S software needs to be modified to be used in the Turbo, same goes to various control units which communicate with the ECU, so this ain't no easy job like many Turbo buyers may think. 

    -engine is based on 991 Carrera S engine, NOT on new GT3 engine. It is using integrated dry sump system(aka multi pumps wet sump) as on Carrera 3.8 engine. Also, bore and stroke is the same on all three engines(Carrera 3.8, Turbo and GT3).

    True but I heard that the new Turbo/Turbo S uses lots of GT3 engine parts as standard for durability reasons, however I still miss the technical details, which I hopefully get sometimes around July/August. Also the VTG chargers seem to have been newly designed.

    -PDK gearing is almost the same as on 997.2 Turbo PDK.

    Gearing ratio maybe, PDK is completely new (similar to GT3). Also the steering has been re-programmed, it is more than 10% more direct than on the Carrera S.

    -new Turbo S is faster then 997.2 Turbo S. How much faster in 0-300km/h I directly asked? Little bit faster was direct answer...

    According to my information aprox. 3 seconds but another source told me that it is a sub-30 seconds time, so it remains to be seen.

    -new Turbo S is capable for very good to excellent Ring time. Do you expect below 7.30min Ring time in Sport Auto Supertest my direct question. NO, direct answer.

    Porsche did 7:27 Min with street tires, everything else remains to be seen.

    -PTM is more capable then before and redesigned. Still, it is on normal road as much RWD biased on power delivery as before.

    PTM(AWD/PSM) has been completely revamped, also now AWS is integrated. According to my source, the car handles more neutral now, heavy oversteer can be provoked with PSM turned off only. Also understeers has been reduced a lot vs. the "old" Turbo/Turbo S.

    -apparently rear wheel steering and new PTM setup are crucial(with that active aerodynamics) for much improved Ring time.

    Precisely. 

    -new 991 Turbo is very fast from standstill. OK. Is it any faster in 200km/h-300km/h then SLS AMG GT, 458 Italia or MP4-12C? Answer was NO. You will need new 991 GT2 to beat those cars.

    The new 991 Turbo S beats the 458 Italia from 200 to 300 kph (Porsche has a comparison car for testing) but not the MP4-12C. I don't know about the SLS AMG GT.

    Point is that new 991 Turbo S is as fast as SLS AMG GT, 458 Italia and little bit slower then MP4-12C for less money and is most practicle sportscar in its class. Hmm... Most practicle sportscar in its class...

    Well, I wish it would have the performance of the MP4-12C from 200 to 300 kph but from 0-120 kph, there will not be many cars to beat the new Turbo S. The launch control is sensational, the new AWD setup phenomenal (not my words).

    I still like new 991 Turbo/Turbo S pretty much. Honest answers from my P friend is a welcome thing.

    Little supriese: he wrote directly-buy basic 991 Turbo. In normal use it is almost as fast as Turbo S.

    I don't expect much difference in performance between the normal Turbo and the Turbo S but you get some goodies with the Turbo S and an aprox. 3 seconds advantage from 0-300 kph. Considering the Turbo has the Sport Chrono package (I cannot believe that someone would actually be that dumb to order a Turbo without the Sport Chrono package). Without Sport Chrono package, the Turbo is aprox. 5 seconds slower from 0-300 kph.

    What I don't like right now is the lack of precise technical information, like in the technical handbook, which should be available at some point. The press information is quite limited for now, which is unfortunate.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:

     

    Also interesting (not sure if this has been mentioned already): The redline of the Turbo engine is at 7000 rpm, the redline of the Turbo S at 7200 rpm.

    Just a few fun facts...

    I find it hard to believe that they gave the S a higher red line it is very un Porsche like historically also there is little reason for increasing the red line on a Porsche turbo engine as peak power is usually made in mid 6000s with drop off soon after, unless they have made big changes Vs the A91 which I doubt Smiley


    --



     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    TB993tt:
    RC:

     

    Also interesting (not sure if this has been mentioned already): The redline of the Turbo engine is at 7000 rpm, the redline of the Turbo S at 7200 rpm.

    Just a few fun facts...

    I find it hard to believe that they gave the S a higher red line it is very un Porsche like historically also there is little reason for increasing the red line on a Porsche turbo engine as peak power is usually made in mid 6000s with drop off soon after, unless they have made big changes Vs the A91 which I doubt Smiley

    They did...this is actually one of the few facts I found. This is why I also think that the Turbo S will surprise performance-wise vs. the regular Turbo, even if the first numbers may not indicate that. Gear ratio is the same though (fact). A lot is software nowadays, like for example the more direct steering I mentioned.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Some of the facts posted cause me some concern.  I had driven a 997.2 TTS on multiple occasions and did not like the PDK transmission in that car, I'm concerned if the 991 TTS drives the same way.  It's fun at first because of the straight line power, but it offers little driver involvement.  I understand why they're going PDK only, (fuel consumption, faster, more provable times, etc) but I wonder if it's going to leave something to be desired like the 997.2 PDK.  When I first heard of the new turbo I hoped for the PDK-S trans that's in the new GT3.  

    I'll wait to reserve judgement for when the car is actually out and some of you can post reviews and I can read some credible auto journalist reviews as well.  

    I know that the turbo is the best DD sports car, but I do have to say that the MP4-12C at similar money is looking better.  I've only owned Porsche sports cars so I don't want to jump ship, and I didn't agree with the earlier reports about Porsche changing some of their philosophies, but I'm starting to see where some of those people are coming from.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Why not jump ship? There are plenty of great cars and brands out there.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I'm such a Porsche loyalist. I do recall when people were up in arms over 993 to 996 generations from air cooled to water cooled, I wonder if it's a similar situation.  Ultimately, I do not want to leave Porsche, but if I was seriously considering it, I would at least wait to hear out the reviews.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    hussainh1:

    Some of the facts posted cause me some concern.  I had driven a 997.2 TTS on multiple occasions and did not like the PDK transmission in that car, I'm concerned if the 991 TTS drives the same way.  It's fun at first because of the straight line power, but it offers little driver involvement.  I understand why they're going PDK only, (fuel consumption, faster, more provable times, etc) but I wonder if it's going to leave something to be desired like the 997.2 PDK.  When I first heard of the new turbo I hoped for the PDK-S trans that's in the new GT3.  

    According to my information, the PDK in the 991 Turbo/Turbo S is as new as the GT3 PDK. Rumors indicate this has something to do with the new AWS both cars share. Shifting speed shouldn't be much different.

    I'll wait to reserve judgement for when the car is actually out and some of you can post reviews and I can read some credible auto journalist reviews as well.  

    Very good choice. I'm afraid however that, if everything I heard so far is true (I cannot confirm it), the 991 Turbo/Turbo S orders will rise the moment a positive review will be available. Many potential customers seem to wait for a review. I would actually do the same but I have to do the deal now and I also have no alternative, so I have no other choice.

    I know that the turbo is the best DD sports car, but I do have to say that the MP4-12C at similar money is looking better.  I've only owned Porsche sports cars so I don't want to jump ship, and I didn't agree with the earlier reports about Porsche changing some of their philosophies, but I'm starting to see where some of those people are coming from.

    The MP4-12C is in my opinion a different car for different customers. The Turbo S is perfect for those who don't want to attract too much attention and who need a car for bad weather (rain, snow) too.

    To be honest: If I would live in a different region of this planet, I would probably choose the MP4-12C instead (for the same money). This comes from a die hard Porsche enthusiast.

    I get it: The 991 Turbo S is really something special but maybe, considering the raised price tag, not special enough. I hope Porsche reads this because there is still some time to give the Turbo S a boost in power and performance.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Considering the "used prices" of a 997 Turbo S here in Switzerland - it is now obviously amazing value for money unlike the new one !


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Well, I'm glad to hear the PDK is new.  I just hope that it is involved. I've seen many 997.2 TTS owners trade their cars for other makes because they do not feel that the PDK is engaging enough.  I know another forum member who recently did so and got in to an Audi R8 V10 M/T, which seems to be quite the popular alternative.  I driven one for 500+ miles, and I wouldn't own it because it's N/A and doesn't provide the rush feeling that I've come to love from a twin turbo.  

    Regarding waiting for the reviews, there are some options on the car that are still unavailable (deviated stitching for one) so even if I was alarmed (which I'm not yet) I wouldn't cancel my order.  For example, your car may be ready as early as 10/5. So hopefully, I can read sooner and still keep my allocation.

    I agree also that the MP4-12C is a different car, I don't have any bad weather in my region so that's something to consider.  I hope Porsche still has a few tricks up their sleeve.  They haven't failed me personally yet, so I won't jump to conclusions until I read more.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    BjoernB:

    Considering the "used prices" of a 997 Turbo S here in Switzerland - it is now obviously amazing value for money unlike the new one !

    Prices in Germany for "good" cars, around 20-30k km, are in the 125-130k EUR range. Not really a bargain if you ask me, not yet. Not sure about Swiss prices though.

    In my opinion, Porsche made a huge marketing mistake: While the new 991 Turbo S is an amazing car, there is no real incentive for owners of the "old" model to switch. Yes, track performance may be greatly improved but judging by raw performance numbers, there isn't so much different between the "old" 997 Turbo S and the new 991 Turbo S. So why should owners of the "old" car take a serious 70-80k EUR financial hit, just to get the new model? Doesn't make sense.

    With 600 hp and an obvious performance gain, the switch pressure on owners of the "older" car would have been higher. I just hope Porsche knows what they are doing. Even 580 hp would have been OK but 560 hp? I don't know.

    I was wrong once (when Porsche put the 996 Turbo on the market, with just a few horses more than the 993 Turbo), I was pretty sure that customers won't get the 996 Turbo instead but apparently I was wrong and the car was a huge success. Maybe I am wrong again but something just doesn't feel right about the new 991 Turbo S. Maybe it is the higher price tag, which kind of raised expectations.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    The higher price tag definitely puts the expectations in the highest category.  $200k for a turbo s is a whole new level.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    hussainh1:

    The higher price tag definitely puts the expectations in the highest category.  $200k for a turbo s is a whole new level.

    So shouldn't customers expect a whole new level of performance? At least at MP4-12C level? Just saying... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    At least MP4 levels, IMO.  I'm not saying that it needs 625hp, and maybe hp isn't even the right measure, but I hope it's faster than an MP4.

    That MP4 is just so tempting, but it would be way more flashy than a turbo which is a very difficult proposition.  The average Joe doesn't know the difference between a 50-60k Cayman and a 200k turbo s.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    hussainh1:

    At least MP4 levels, IMO.  I'm not saying that it needs 625hp, and maybe hp isn't even the right measure, but I hope it's faster than an MP4.

    That MP4 is just so tempting, but it would be way more flashy than a turbo which is a very difficult proposition.  The average Joe doesn't know the difference between a 50-60k Cayman and a 200k turbo s.

    According to recent information we have regarding the 991 Turbo S, the Turbo S beats the MP4-12C from standstill up to 130 kph but afterwards, it looses ground. At speeds over 150 kph, the MP4-12C advances and overtakes the new 991 Turbo S. 200-300 kph performance is not even close, the new Turbo S looses big time vs. the MP4-12C.

    I wish I could say something else but this is what I got...so far, which is of course disappointing considering the higher price tag of the new Turbo S.

    The Turbo S needs aprox. 600 hp to cope with MP4-12C performance in the upper speed range. This would probably make both cars perform the same, not really make the new Turbo S faster.

    I don't get it either but I suspect it has something to do with the next GT2 and GT2 RS models and of course the 918. They cannot make the GT2 RS as fast as the 918, which already shows the dilemma here.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    hussainh1:

    At least MP4 levels, IMO.  I'm not saying that it needs 625hp, and maybe hp isn't even the right measure, but I hope it's faster than an MP4.

    That MP4 is just so tempting, but it would be way more flashy than a turbo which is a very difficult proposition.  The average Joe doesn't know the difference between a 50-60k Cayman and a 200k turbo s.

    According to recent information we have regarding the 991 Turbo S, the Turbo S beats the MP4-12C from standstill up to 130 kph but afterwards, it looses ground. At speeds over 150 kph, the MP4-12C advances and overtakes the new 991 Turbo S. 200-300 kph performance is not even close, the new Turbo S looses big time vs. the MP4-12C.

    I wish I could say something else but this is what I got...so far, which is of course disappointing considering the higher price tag of the new Turbo S.

    The Turbo S needs aprox. 600 hp to cope with MP4-12C performance in the upper speed range. This would probably make both cars perform the same, not really make the new Turbo S faster.

    I don't get it either but I suspect it has something to do with the next GT2 and GT2 RS models and of course the 918. They cannot make the GT2 RS as fast as the 918, which already shows the dilemma here.

    RC, maybe I am wrong, but I don't see how 918 affect 911 turbo performance. 918 is completely from another league and much much faster that Mclaren. (Of course now unofficially). So why do they need to make turbo slower than MP4-12 that is much slower than 918 anyway? 


    --

    sportcars-history.com


     
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