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    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Carrara:

     STRADALE: The stop start is automatically disabled if it is very hot or cold outside, or if Sport mode is on. It can also be disabled via a button on the center console. 

    Its apart of all the other very small fuel saving measures that gives the Carrera PDK 36mpg highway! 9 more than the 997.

     

    Anyone getting 36mpg or 9mpg more isn't really driving their Porsche. 

    But if mpg gets people excited about a 500+hp Porsche Turbo, good for you I guess. To me it means I'd be paying for that 9mpg via a higher MSRP because of the technology. It reminds me of the people that spend $5k extra on a gas hybrid & then tout their $ savings in gas mileage, not having any idea how many miles they would need to drive to make up the $5k.  

    Dunno, feel cranky about it right now & I know I sound it. Just pisses me off that even THIS has gotten compromised...............  I DON'T CARE about mpg in my Porsche Turbo, it's not why I bought the car or would be interested in while shopping for it's replacement... I honestly couldn't even tell you what I get mpg wise but I know it's not 27mpg or even 20mpg. 


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    STRADALE:

    Isn't start-up the worst time for an engine? Will this affect engine life?


    The worst for the engine are cold starts, not the startup procedure itself, since neither the components nor the fluids are up to proper operating temperature. The stress on the engine is the highest in this situation hence the first few miles after startup the car should be driven gently.

    The start-stop function is disabled until the car reaches operating temperature, not sure whether the manual deactivation is temporary or can be activated continuously. To be honest, I had my reservations about this technology as well but the car starts instantly, faster than one´s transition from brake to gas pedal.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    I can't imagine it would be good for the engine either...  Sounds like it would be EXTREMELY annoying. I mean when any of my 911's have started for a second or two they are louder. I'm sure Porsche has it down so it doesn't sound like a normal start up each time during start/stop but I have to imagine especially w/ after-market exhaust or PSE, etc it could get real old real fast,,,especially in traffic..  


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    STRADALE:

    I'm sure Porsche has it down so it doesn't sound like a normal start up each time during start/stop but I have to imagine especially w/ after-market exhaust or PSE, etc it could get real old real fast,,,especially in traffic..  


    Interesting consideration actually. If it is true that PSE is linked to the Sport button, then the system is disabled as well. So far, it only works when the car is warmed up properly, the car is in standard mode and one allows it to shut off automatically. I tend to believe that most of these DFI cars start faster and more gentle, hence it doesn´t necessarily become annoying. Very curious though how Porsche has incorporated it on its sportscars.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Dunno, feel cranky about it right now & I know I sound it. Just pisses me off that even THIS has gotten compromised...............  I DON'T CARE about mpg in my Porsche Turbo, it's not why I bought the car or would be interested in while shopping for it's replacement... I honestly couldn't even tell you what I get mpg wise but I know it's not 27mpg or even 20mpg.

    I'm with you on this.  I also don't know why I'm feeling cranky, and I'm not a climate-change denialist, but I've decided that I'll help the planet in other ways, not with my car.  I see my mpg as a target - the worse it is, the more fun I'm having...


    --

    Isn't it time you got yourself a !waytag?   www.waytag.com


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Ferdie:
    STRADALE:

    I'm sure Porsche has it down so it doesn't sound like a normal start up each time during start/stop but I have to imagine especially w/ after-market exhaust or PSE, etc it could get real old real fast,,,especially in traffic..  


    Interesting consideration, actually. If it is true that PSE is linked to the Sport button, then the system is disabled as well. So far, it only works when the car is warmed up properly, the car is in standard mode and one allows it to shut off automatically. I tend to believe that most of these DFI cars start faster and more gentle, hence it doesn´t necessarily become annoying. Very curious though how Porsche has incorporated it on its sportscars.

     

    I realize that but on my 997 S Cab w/ PSE it was on all the time. (you know the mod) .

    I can tell you for sure & first hand that if my 997 Turbo Cab w/ top down Tubi Exhaust (or even my 997 S PSE Cab)  started & stopped each time I stopped in traffic it would be very, VERY ANNOYING.

    And when you're in stop & go traffic you're not in sport (I never am anyways) because of the sensitive throttle input..


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    STRADALE:

    I can tell you for sure & first hand that if my 997 Turbo Cab w/ top down Tubi Exhaust (or even my 997 S PSE Cab)  started & stopped each time I stopped in traffic it would be very, VERY ANNOYING.


    I agree with that, let´s wait and see. What I personally find irritating is the dismissal of a proper key, it seems to be a fob similiar to the ones in Cayenne and Panamera.
     


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Budster:
    Dunno, feel cranky about it right now & I know I sound it. Just pisses me off that even THIS has gotten compromised...............  I DON'T CARE about mpg in my Porsche Turbo, it's not why I bought the car or would be interested in while shopping for it's replacement... I honestly couldn't even tell you what I get mpg wise but I know it's not 27mpg or even 20mpg.

    I'm with you on this.  I also don't know why I'm feeling cranky, and I'm not a climate-change denialist, but I've decided that I'll help the planet in other ways, not with my car.  I see my mpg as a target - the worse it is, the more fun I'm having...

     

    EXACTLY! Smiley Well said..... Smiley And that is coming from a "denialist" Smiley "Man made Global Warming" denier that is, climate changes naturally,,,,, always,,,,,, no denying that...

    I know it's not the most PC thing to say but I would rather have 5HP more and a 2gallon larger fuel tank on my 500+hp $175k Porsche Turbo than have stop/start.. I get it on one of these econo cars that are built from the start w/ gas mileage in mind, small, skinny tires, no big radiators sticking out up front, 4 cylinder engines geared for fuel savings, etc... But on a Porsche 911?? Really?!?!

    Wait! Maybe it won't be on the Turbo??? Hmmmm..  

    ok, I've vented & at least somebody agrees with me, maybe it's time to jet}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

    Have a Nice Holiday Guys.


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Times, they are a changing................
    --

    "Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    I've got a start/ stop system in my VW and although it was strange in the beginning, I've got used to it fast. You can disabled it or you just keep your foot on the clutch if you want to keep the engine running. Not that big of a deal, I wouldn't worry to hard. Within 3 years every car has this system standard.
    --

    Morgan Aero 8


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

     STRADALE: I don't really care about mpg at all either. But you have to remember, if Porsche had there way, they wouldn't have invested much time into economy. But because of stupid regulations, they have no choice. And I'm sure they know most of the owners don't care about mpg, but some do, and why in the world would you have a problem driving a car that can do the Nordschleife in under 8 minutes, yet still give you 30mpg on your daily commute?

    Of course these regulations would assume a watered down Porsche, but that isn't the case. Porsche is delivering on the fuel economy regulations, and aren't sacrificing performance. So I commend Porsche for that, as we should all.

    And just to let you know so you don't think I'm biased, I hate environmentalists, I hate being "green", and I think burning lots of fuel is fun! And also I don't care about the environment (well, I do, but not in the sense of our current situation), because in my opinion, the "problem" with the environment is that people think there's a problem, when really its non existent. Its a bunch of political bulls$hit. But Porsche doesn't have a choice and IMHO are doing a fantastic job evaluating their situation.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    STRADALE:
    Budster: I also don't know why I'm feeling cranky, and I'm not a climate-change denialist, but I've decided that I'll help the planet in other ways, not with my car.  I see my mpg as a target - the worse it is, the more fun I'm having...

     

    EXACTLY! Smiley Well said..... Smiley And that is coming from a "denialist" Smiley "Man made Global Warming" denier that is, climate changes naturally,,,,, always,,,,,, no denying that...

    STRADALE, I'm not a denialist (I'm not sure if you were referring to yourself or had mis-read my thread?) - as I'm not a scientist, and although I'm a keen cynic, in this debate I've decided to outsource my belief to the publication I trust the most: The Economist.

    The Economist accepts global warming, and accepts that it is "very likely" that man has "contributed" to global warming.  So I'm happy to turn off the lights I'm not using, etc etc, but life is too short to give up everything.

    Having slept on it, I'm a bit more relaxed on the auto-start, as the fact that it can be switched off (IF it turns out to be annoying) just goes to show that Porsche are playing the game with the politicians perfectly well.  They are progressing science and technology along with other manufacturers that will "most likely" help the planet for the vast majority of people who are happy to save mpg, whilst allowing us guys to get to the garden centre quicker to buy our trees for the tree-planting session at the kids' school.  (The fold down back seats are specially designed for tree-planting ceremony logistics).

     Let's be thankful that the politicians and car manufacturers (and their powerful global lobby) are playing the game so cleverly - otherwise there is no reason why cars are not all already fitted with GPS devices to limit top speeds to 60km/hr in urban areas and 100km/hr elsewhere.  The Nissan GTR already has this technology that un-limits the delimiter when it arrives at a track!  The GPS is already fitted in all our cars, and some new cars allow parents to limit speeds for their kids' cars - so if it wasn't for the game they're playing, the sportscar would be dead already.

    So a little switch is fine...


    --

    Isn't it time you got yourself a !waytag?   www.waytag.com


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Budster:
    STRADALE:
    Budster: I also don't know why I'm feeling cranky, and I'm not a climate-change denialist, but I've decided that I'll help the planet in other ways, not with my car.  I see my mpg as a target - the worse it is, the more fun I'm having...

     

    EXACTLY! Smiley Well said..... Smiley And that is coming from a "denialist" Smiley "Man made Global Warming" denier that is, climate changes naturally,,,,, always,,,,,, no denying that...

    STRADALE, I'm not a denialist (I'm not sure if you were referring to yourself or had mis-read my thread?) - as I'm not a scientist, and although I'm a keen cynic, in this debate I've decided to outsource my belief to the publication I trust the most: The Economist.

    The Economist accepts global warming, and accepts that it is "very likely" that man has "contributed" to global warming.  So I'm happy to turn off the lights I'm not using, etc etc, but life is too short to give up everything.

    Having slept on it, I'm a bit more relaxed on the auto-start, as the fact that it can be switched off (IF it turns out to be annoying) just goes to show that Porsche are playing the game with the politicians perfectly well.  They are progressing science and technology along with other manufacturers that will "most likely" help the planet for the vast majority of people who are happy to save mpg, whilst allowing us guys to get to the garden centre quicker to buy our trees for the tree-planting session at the kids' school.  (The fold down back seats are specially designed for tree-planting ceremony logistics).

     Let's be thankful that the politicians and car manufacturers (and their powerful global lobby) are playing the game so cleverly - otherwise there is no reason why cars are not all already fitted with GPS devices to limit top speeds to 60km/hr in urban areas and 100km/hr elsewhere.  The Nissan GTR already has this technology that un-limits the delimiter when it arrives at a track!  The GPS is already fitted in all our cars, and some new cars allow parents to limit speeds for their kids' cars - so if it wasn't for the game they're playing, the sportscar would be dead already.

    So a little switch is fine...


    --

    Isn't it time you got yourself a !waytag?   www.waytag.com

    Lets not turn this thread in to a political discussion, but The Economist is not exactly  an impartial source and the latest from NASA contradicts that premise.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    I have had start stop feature on our E90 M3 and our new F25 X3 30d, and it is annoying like hell.  I turn it off everytime.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    WAY:

    I have had start stop feature on our E90 M3 and our new F25 X3 30d, and it is annoying like hell.  I turn it off everytime.

     WAY,

    You haven't write any review on your M3 Smiley

    Since you have driven so many different cars/sports cars, I'm very curious about your opinion of the car in terms of both performance and handling.


    --

    ONUR

    11 M3 Coupe AW

    09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Carrara:

    Of course these regulations would assume a watered down Porsche, but that isn't the case. Porsche is delivering on the fuel economy regulations, and aren't sacrificing performance. So I commend Porsche for that, as we should all.

    Exactly if Porsche can give extra mileage without sacrificing performance, there can be no grounds for complaints. On the contrary they should be commended for their impeccable engineering.

    Moreover, owning a Porsche 911, especially an entry level Carrera(S) isn't the equivalent of a weekend supercar. These cars are often used daily in town and in traffic jams etc. Why not have the chance to save fuel under those circumastances?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    STRADALE:


    I can tell you for sure & first hand that if my 997 Turbo Cab w/ top down Tubi Exhaust (or even my 997 S PSE Cab)  started & stopped each time I stopped in traffic it would be very, VERY ANNOYING.

    And when you're in stop & go traffic you're not in sport (I never am anyways) because of the sensitive throttle input..
     

    Don't worry, Stradale - I'm 100% sure that you can turn off the Start/Stop function in either mode (same system as in the BMW). Actually the thing annoys me most in stop & go in my X3 - especially with the comparable rough Diesel engine, hence I always turn it off in stop & go.

    In a 911 the engine is much smoother of course, but imagine the pedestrians' comments: look, this guy buys a 150 k Porsche but has no clue how to drive the thing - he stalls the engine at every traffic light Smiley Smiley

    Actually I recall an ad from the german car rental company SIXT (over here well known for their funny ads, often ridiculing PC Smiley ). The ad promoted a BMW (I think it was a 120d) with the then new Start/Stop thing as a women's car: "easier to drive for her - this car even stalls automatically" Smiley

     


    --

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...



    Start/stop in 911 is utter nonsense.


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

     The Star/Stop function can be turned off in the Panamera by a simple console button, it was the first thing I started to look for when I drove the Panamera for the first time since its annoying as h€ll. Considering it makes less sense in a 911 because of the sportier driving (even in stop and go driving) that one does than on a Panamera, there has got to be an OFF button as well in the 991.


    --


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Start/stop in 911 is utter nonsense.


    +1 Smiley

    One of two solutions:

    1. Find that button and hardwire it in place, or

    2. Buy a manual and keep your foot on the clutch when you stop (which you're going to do any way).  Smiley

    Seriously though, I'm really disappointed that Porsche has gone this way with the 991.  The cumulative effect of all the (new) 911s in the world cutting out every time they stop will amount to the equivalent of a tiny pimple on the backside of a very large elephant - but will end up frustrating a lot of people who have shelled out good money for a sports car which shouldn't be saddled with this sort of nonsense!

    Just my 2c worth...


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    One needs to keep in mind that Porsche feels very threatened by the Greens in their home country.  All their product engineers and most of their development people live in Germany and feel the social pressures that come with being there.  They are bound to calculate the importance (political impact) of energy savings at a different rate irrespective of their personal feelings about the matter.

    I got used to the engine start/stop feature in my kids' Honda Civic Hybrid.  At first, it seemed like the engine had died unexpectedly, but with experience I kind of looked forward the engine saving gas at a traffic signal.  It was just fine except for the fact that the Honda's air conditioning compressor was driven by the engine and during long stops in the summer the car became uncomfortable.

    In my Panamera, all the important functions are electrically driven so the engine stopping doesn't affect my comfort at all.  The only reason for me not to use the feature is that the engine restart draws enough current from the electrical system that it produces a momentary brown-out of the 12 volt supply to my radar detector which cycles the start-up sequence.  That's very annoying, but we're about to release a brown-out-booster to cure the problem once and for all.

    In sum, start/stop on a 911 wouldn't really bother me for use in stop and go traffic and it wouldn't activate during spirited driving anyway.  What's not to like except change?


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT + 2008 Tesla Roadster +2010 Panamera Turbo + 2001 BMW Z8 + 1972 BMW 3.0 CSi +2009 Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    pride355:
    WAY:

    I have had start stop feature on our E90 M3 and our new F25 X3 30d, and it is annoying like hell.  I turn it off everytime.

     WAY,

    You haven't write any review on your M3 Smiley

    Since you have driven so many different cars/sports cars, I'm very curious about your opinion of the car in terms of both performance and handling.


    I think so far I owe reviews on the heavily modified 135i, M3, X5M, C63, E63, Spyder and GT3.  Just as well I don't post about every car I buy. Smiley  Let me sum the M3 up in a few sentences if I may seeing how lazy I am to write a full review:  Aside from wanting a Porsche or the unique way in which a 911 drives, I really cannot see why anyone would pay a premium buying a C2 over an E92 M3 ZCP.  The M3 has more space, rides better, has better balance, is just as quick, sounds better, is cheaper etc etc.  The list goes on.  You could even say the same thing about C2S.  Now the goal post may have moved with the 991, but what I said above certainly applies to 997.1 and even 997.2.  But hey, M3 is coming towards the end of life too and I am sure the next one will move it forward in big strides again.  Like Porsches, you need to know the right options to tick (especially for E90 where it doesn't come with lots of the performance stuff that is standard on E92).  A very good friend of mine has in the last 3 years owned four E90/E92 M3s, and 997.2 C2S X51, GT3 and Turbo S.  He shares my views completely.

    I am sure my view isn't going to be popular on this thread where most of us are 911 owners, but i am telling how I see it.  Don't get me wrong, I love my 911s, but if someone is just after the best car possible without the big price tag and don't mind sharing the body shell with a rep mobile (especially those in Europe), then I would say buy a M3.  For myself though, M3s will always have a place in our garage as one of our practical cars but I will always love my Porsches. Smiley


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

     Don't think it's an issue at all. You can turn it off on the console and if you leave it off it will not activate the next time you start it. At least this is how it works on the new Cayenne.


    --

    2012 Cayenne S White/Espresso 

    Ex: 993 Targa, 986S, 986 and 964 C2


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    WAY:
    As in you can't get one till 2013? I mean, similarly, you can't get a C2S till Dec/Jan next year, but we saw and started discussing the car in August. As I said, I'm in two minds. Maybe wait till I can spec one out here and see how much it is and what kind of discount my dealer will give for it.
    I have had a chance to go through the English brochure in detail. Here are three of my beef with the 991:
    1. Why is the interior only 25mm increase in the front leg room? Does this mean that the engine has been moved forward 75mm? That is a lot! Please please please don't let this change the way a 911 drives. Yes I know, don't judge till we have had a chance to drive it, but just saying!
    2. Why have they specifically said that the leg room is improved for front only? Does this mean that the rear leg room has not change? I mean this is marketing writing, and if there is anything to boast about, especially an increase in leg room for the rear seat to make this a more practical car, don't you think that is the first thing they would have said?
    3. I'm disappointed that the PCCB is the same as before. 350mm all round enough for a car this fast and track worthy? My Spyder has the same brakes and it's quite a bit lighter. Would have been nice with the 380mm PCCB on my GT3! (ok that is day dreaming stuff as they would never do that).

    Anyone in the know care to comment about item 1 and 2 above that I brought up?  
     

    Btw moderators, isn't it time to create a 991 sub forum? Smiley


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    If I recall correctly (from when I last read the 991 brochure), the auto start/stop feature can be switched off.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    Start/stop is almost certainly necessary to meet the EU legislation on fuel consumption which applies across an entire manufacturers model range, not just individual models within it. It can be disabled by pressing a button though it defaults to being active every time you start the car. I've never found it to be a major issue on my Cayenne and the engine starts instantly when you release the brake.

    You can also blame EU legislation on a drivers indirect (i.e. rear ward) view of vision for altering the size and location of the door mirrors I believe. The changes were phased in from 2005 to 2010 so I suspect the 997.2 was able to retain the Gen 1 mirror location due to the model being a facelift as opposed to a new design although the mirrors did increase in size. Most manufacturers have moved the door mirrors away from the traditional "quarterlight" location at the front corner of the side windows and placed them lower down on the doors to meet the more stringent pedestrian impact requirements for mirror deformity. The stupid aspect of this legislation is that it has now created huge door mirror housings that actually restrict a drivers forward field of vision making you more likely to miss seeing potential obstacles which is just crazy IMHO.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    ISUK:
    The stupid aspect of this legislation is that it has now created huge door mirror housings that actually restrict a drivers forward field of vision making you more likely to miss seeing potential obstacles which is just crazy IMHO.

    I was thinking the same whilst driving our Q5. Huge mirrors with a very large rear view but which obstruct the side view when you make a turn especially a tight turn in city Smiley

    Having said that, I find the rear view offered by the 997.2 very helpful compared to the restricted view offered by the slimmer (and more elegant) 997.1 mirrors.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    reginos,

    You are simply not going fast enough if you are worried about what's going on behind you

    Buy a turbo S ........... then you really won't need to be concerned as everything will be behind you

     


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    993Targa:

     Don't think it's an issue at all. You can turn it off on the console and if you leave it off it will not activate the next time you start it. At least this is how it works on the new Cayenne.

    ISUK:

    Start/stop is almost certainly necessary to meet the EU legislation on fuel consumption which applies across an entire manufacturers model range, not just individual models within it. It can be disabled by pressing a button though it defaults to being active every time you start the car. I've never found it to be a major issue on my Cayenne and the engine starts instantly when you release the brake.


    Ok, which is it.  Spits or swallows?  (Austin Powers, 1999)

    If you have to keep pressing the button everytime you start the car cold, it could get as annoying as pressing "sport mode" everytime you cold start.


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991...

    ISUK is correct.


     
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