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    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Leawood911:

    I wonder how the electric steering reacts duing an accident?  If there is any advantage?  Typically you take your hands off, if you can, during a bit hit because the turning wheel can break your wrists.  With the electric steering they may be able to prevent that.  Just wondering..

     It won't be any different in an accident - still a mechanical connection between steering rack and steering wheel.  If they did come up with a way to lock the steering wheel in an accident, then I'd be really unsettled by such a system...


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    I never expected the day would come when I would feel relieved to climb out of any 911 and into my trusty (albeit improved) old 986! But this is exactly how the test-drive ended today.

    Presumably and judging by your statement above my 997.1 GT3 isn't not that an old horse deserving to be shot dead Smiley

    Am I falling miles apart if I were to defend that this new 991 actually keeps the price of our previous models higher up?


    --

     

    ------- MY07 997.1 GT3 White, CS, PCCB, Full Leather/Alcantara in Black

    ------- MY07 997C2S --GONE


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    function_analysi:

    Presumably and judging by your statement above my 997.1 GT3 isn't not that an old horse deserving to be shot dead Smiley

    What your car deserves really is uninhibited love. :)

    Am I falling miles apart if I were to defend that this new 991 actually keeps the price of our previous models higher up?

    I would hazard a guess that yes, within the enthusiasts' market niche, the 991 does allow 997's to remain more in demand than would be expected. In my opinion, the price of a 997 GT3 will not drop a dime because of the 991! Now, when the 991 GT3 comes along, that's another story. Who knows what Porsche might come up with. It should be interesting to observe how this new steering system might be brought to meet GT3 standards. 


    --

    Costas


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    @function_analysi: great to see you back on Rennteam again. Hope you and your family are doing well !


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    OK, has anybody tried an 991 Carrera/Carrera S with a standard steering, without Power steering plus? Any impressions on that point?


    --
    "I couldn't find the sports car of my dreams, so I built it myself." - Dr. Ferdinand Porsche

    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    paczo911:

    OK, has anybody tried an 991 Carrera/Carrera S with a standard steering, without Power steering plus? Any impressions on that point?

    I don't think the one I drove had that option.  My understanding is that both versions are identical at anything above parking speeds.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Grant:
    paczo911:

    OK, has anybody tried an 991 Carrera/Carrera S with a standard steering, without Power steering plus? Any impressions on that point?

    I don't think the one I drove had that option.  My understanding is that both versions are identical at anything above parking speeds.

    In the interview Herr Achleitner implied that the speed related added assistance goes beyond on the spot parking maneuvers. Similar systems from Mercedes and Audi that I know of, are also like that.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    So the dealer has confirmed that the car which I drove did have the Power Steering Plus option. Problem is, at the moment they don't have a car to try without it!

    I spoke to three sales people at the Geneva show and they were very much aware of complaints regarding this new system. They acknowledge that it does feel strange initially but they were keen to explain that after a while you get used to the feeling and that the system is very precise etc. "It is the way of the future" is the phrase someone used.

    From the effort they were all putting in and from how quick they were to jump to its defense, at the mere mention of the term, I believe that they were uneasy with the system's reception so far! Not that it should affect sales really, but it seemed like they had not expected as much scepticism. Just my gut-feeling, of course.

     


    --

    Costas


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    There are some Porsche points of view, in the "Excellence magazine" copy below about the new E-steering.

    My conclusions are:

    Porsche wanted to introduce more civility in the 991 in view of what the competition offers and what their new buyers in emerging markets want. This calmer nature doesn't appeal to some owners who like their driving experience more raw. Problem is that such drivers won't be able to satisfied fully at present by Porsche (or even elsewhere, perhaps).

    Power Steering Plus should be better avoided by "enthusiast" drivers. These will be happier with the standard version of the new steering.

    Porsche expect that most cars will have the e-steering in the near future and since the 991 will be with us for some 7-8 years, the development of such a system was a must. I'm sure that year by year e-steering will become more and more honed.

    Even the 991 GT3 RSR will have a version of the e-steering.

    excellence 001.jpg

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    reginos:

    There are some Porsche points of view, in the "Excellence magazine" copy below about the new E-steering.


     

    If only they had called it "iSteering"  everybody would have loved it and would be rushing out to buy one!

    SmileySmiley


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    "iSteering" - nice one indecision

    Thanks for posting that reginos! "A vehicle sensor that constantly calculates" - I hesitate to assume how it works! Do they throw away actual "physical" feedback from the tires and resort to a calculation of what the tires are doing (based on what the sensors are saying about speed, attitude, etc)? This is akin to "force-feedback" calculations in a computer racing simulator. It can be made good but never as good as the real thing, for two reasons:

    1. No matter how fast the computer is, there is always more lag.
    2. Tires are so complex that the computer must rely on imperfect models which describe their behavior. These are always an approximation. (We don't yet have the mathematical equations to describe tire behavior in the way, for example, Newtonian physics describes a game of pool).

    I found a Volkswagen document which gives details on their system - the basic principles should be the same (this youtube video on Porsche's system seems to confirm it). On page 11, they describe how the "return" (centering) force is calculated. They claim the actual forces from the tire are too weak (no caster angle on these cars?) so the system has to calculate what to "return" to the driver. Wow! All I can say is, there is a point when the contact patch begins to break loose (beginning of understeer) and you can feel this in a hydraulic system: the centering force is reduced slightly and you can feel it on your hands. There is no way they can calculate it properly (not for all tires, pavements etc). Hopefully, Porsche is doing something better (i.e., taking into account the actual tire forces)?

    It turns out the "plus" option does its thing only under 31 mph (~50 km/h). This is on page 7 of  a press release, which no longer exists on the Porsche press site (but google has it).

     


    --

    Costas


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Adam2S:
    reginos:

    There are some Porsche points of view, in the "Excellence magazine" copy below about the new E-steering.


     

    If only they had called it "iSteering"  everybody would have loved it and would be rushing out to buy one!

    SmileySmiley

    SmileySmileySmiley


    --


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Aviator:All I can say is, there is a point when the contact patch begins to break loose (beginning of understeer) and you can feel this in a hydraulic system: the centering force is reduced slightly and you can feel it on your hands. There is no way they can calculate it properly (not for all tires, pavements etc).

     

    Exactly - this effect is very clearly communicated on my car and I would miss this information tremendously, if it is reduced or eliminated.  Honestly, I didn't drive the test car fast enough to discover how the 991 communicates this effect.

    The other thing that I love about my 911 steering is the feel at the center position.  The 987/997 already tried to make this position less "nervous" with the slower steering ratio around center (speeds up as you turn the wheel further).  This already diluted one of the my favorite aspects of the 911 steering, but the electric steering feels far less engaging at the center position.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Yet another reason why I feel so very reluctant to part with my 997.1 with conventionally sprung sports suspension ... the steering feel is simply incredible ... I feel everything ... the exact nature of the road surface ... the steering precision is razor sharp ...


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Carlos will know exactly what I am talking about .... (RC used to have the same, Futch AFAIK has still kept his 997.1 C2S with sports suspension as well but I guess he has rarer Porsche beauties to enjoy ... )


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    easy_rider911:

    Yet another reason why I feel so very reluctant to part with my 997.1 with conventionally sprung sports suspension ... the steering feel is simply incredible ... I feel everything ... the exact nature of the road surface ... the steering precision is razor sharp ...

    The 991 is every bit as precise, but the 997.1 feels more connected (also more connected than the 997.2).


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs).  Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550 Maranello


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    easy_rider911:

    Yet another reason why I feel so very reluctant to part with my 997.1 with conventionally sprung sports suspension ... the steering feel is simply incredible ... I feel everything ... the exact nature of the road surface ... the steering precision is razor sharp ...

    I understand what you mean, but this doesn't make the steering any more efficient in terms of accuracy and responsiveness and ultimately road speed. Someone could argue that too much "noise",as in an old purist 911 SC for example, may involve the driver unnecessarily and actually end up in a slower drive and with lots of unnecessary fatigue.

    Same with very hard suspension. I had the sports chassis fitted to a 986S and I had the illusion of going very fast because I felt the road surface more. When I went back to the normal, pliable set up I was actually faster in any given test route. Another example, of feel vs.real speed is when you go round a bend in a lower gear. You could feel more planted in the lower gear but if you try a higher gear you may feel more loose with less feeling of control,  but you can actually attain a higher road speed and be more comfortable at the same time.

    Anyway, someone has to live with the new steering in order to tell the pros and cons. These things cannot be definitely determined in the context of a short test drive. The brain needs time to adjust and evaluate. Same with the PDK. If you come from a manual gearbox and test drive PDK for a few kilometers you might hate it. After you live with it, you might never want to go back to a conventional set up.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    This is from the Autocar road test, just to add more confusion to the e-steering issue: yes

    I wouldn't rely on all this conflicting hearsay anymore, until I get a chance to drive the car.

    "Concerns about that electro-mechanical power steering can be forgotten. Rich and abundant information comes streaming through the wheel rim, as well as via the pedals and seat, with every change in surface camber and grip level. The car’s handling is near-perfect in terms of its balance and its measured, obedient responsiveness."

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/RoadTestsHistory/Porsche-911-3.4-Carrera/261765/


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    big difference right there :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vmt4W5SrLJI&list=UUD6C0ZxffRYiv37xf69aJAQ&index=7&feature=plcp


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    991 with clear back...991.jpg


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    @easy_Thanks for your warm welcome. Nice to catch up with anyone in RT. Following a professional walk around the GCC and the Eastern Europe I'm back again for sharing some nice talks and views. Smiley  


    --

     

    ------- MY07 997.1 GT3 White, CS, PCCB, Full Leather/Alcantara in Black

    ------- MY07 997C2S --GONE


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    reginos:

    This is from the Autocar road test, just to add more confusion to the e-steering issue: yes

    I wouldn't rely on all this conflicting hearsay anymore, until I get a chance to drive the car.

    "Concerns about that electro-mechanical power steering can be forgotten. Rich and abundant information comes streaming through the wheel rim, as well as via the pedals and seat, with every change in surface camber and grip level. The car’s handling is near-perfect in terms of its balance and its measured, obedient responsiveness."

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/RoadTestsHistory/Porsche-911-3.4-Carrera/261765/

    First review I read without the Power Steering Plus I think, and seems that that was the problem all the way... Smiley

    Wonder who was that wise to offer such option to the press at first place. They should've known what kind of sharks they are... Smiley


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Comparison of the two cars in the '"drag" race is  pretty convincing about new 991S.  Any thoughts from Rennteamers?


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    It is probably the similar difference you would see between a 997 S and a 997 GTS. The numbers for the latter are near identical to the 991 S.


    --

    997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE.


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Wonderbar:

    Comparison of the two cars in the '"drag" race is  pretty convincing about new 991S.  Any thoughts from Rennteamers?

    Just that the 997 looks so much better from behind.  It looks planted, like a sports car...  The 991 looks so much higher it's almost like a 2 door sedan in comparison.  I know I'm being tough, but the difference between the two is marked.


    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Planted look of 997 may be an illusion, as white draws your eye to the ground.  If you look at the other pics of the 991S next to the video, it looks low and planted....


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    Aviator:

    So I test-drove a 991s today. A disappointment really. The main issue for me is that, compared to its predecessors, from a 1973 RS to the 997, it "feels" awkwardly different. Less of a Porsche, is the only way to put it.

    Sure, it has loads of grip, fantastic brakes, it probably is super-quick around the ring but that new steering, it does not belong.

    It is impossible to fully get the feel of a car like this on Swiss roads but I found a short hill-climb near the dealership, where staying within the speed limit still allowed for a bit of spirited cornering. I can't say how the electro-mechanical steering fares if you ever manage to get the car sideways but I can emphatically say that it makes for an unacceptably vague corner entry. If, as they say, there is none of the old understeering tendency, you wouldn't know it: most often, all you can do is trust that the front tires are doing what you imagine they should do. I imagine that once you get past this lack of information and decide to "trust" the car, it rewards you up to a point; but this is akin to trusting your parachute, instead of commandeering your airplane. 

    Another issue, with the PDK equipped car: It is one thing to have your engine cutoff at the traffic lights (incidentally, I wonder how this trend with new cars translates to service costs - surely all this on-and-off increases wear and tear for the starter et al?). It is another to be rolling down a road, effectively in utter silence, in a 911, because the engine has decided to disengage, waiting for you to touch the brake so that it may rev up again.

    I never expected the day would come when I would feel relieved to climb out of any 911 and into my trusty (albeit improved) old 986! But this is exactly how the test-drive ended today.

    Steering feel bothered me during my first day with the car, I completely forgot about it a month later during the second. You have to adapt, but you can, and I did. The thing is, the flaws of the 996 & 997 (I have not had earlier cars) left drivers in deep need for a lot of steering feel because understeering was such a constant battle. The 991 is such a drastic improvement in handling that Porsche can get away with a steering rack which, I agree, would otherwise be a disaster if retrofitted on a 997. A Cup racer that I gave the keys too for a few twisty miles (on the wet) gave exactly the same echo: there's less feedback, but there's enough. That's exactly what Porsche says: all told, racers prefer the new rack.

    The eco-gimmicks are indeed annoying, but you can easily turn them all off if they bother you. More concerning is the fact that they result into a appetite for super-unleaded which goes in the opposite direction of normalized combined cycle claims. There is an accumulation of anecdotal evidence that points to a 20% increase in fuel consumption over the 997 in realistic driving patterns. That's a LOT.

    I think that what die hard fans will dislike the most abnout the 991 is that it's far more accomplished, and therefore demands a lot less "specialization" from the driver. It is a 911 for everyone, not a 911 only suited to those who know because they learned the tricks and work-arounds. A better car for the broad base of customers, and Porsche is in the business of selling more cars, not less.


    --

    997 GT3 - 550M - 355 GTS F1 - Prius - Audi S5 Sportback


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    zeshark:

    The eco-gimmicks are indeed annoying, but you can easily turn them all off if they bother you. More concerning is the fact that they result into a appetite for super-unleaded which goes in the opposite direction of normalized combined cycle claims. There is an accumulation of anecdotal evidence that points to a 20% increase in fuel consumption over the 997 in realistic driving patterns. That's a LOT.

    What is the explanation for this in your opinion?

    Could it be that the car is easier to press on and go faster more of the time, compared to a 997 in any given situation? Or because the engine is smoother and hence it allows the driver to use more revs?

    The 991 could be more economical if used like a 997, but the new car probably pushes the envelope to a limit beyond the older car would be able to perform.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    zeshark:

    Steering feel bothered me during my first day with the car, I completely forgot about it a month later during the second. You have to adapt, but you can, and I did. The thing is, the flaws of the 996 & 997 (I have not had earlier cars) left drivers in deep need for a lot of steering feel because understeering was such a constant battle. The 991 is such a drastic improvement in handling that Porsche can get away with a steering rack which, I agree, would otherwise be a disaster if retrofitted on a 997. A Cup racer that I gave the keys too for a few twisty miles (on the wet) gave exactly the same echo: there's less feedback, but there's enough. That's exactly what Porsche says: all told, racers prefer the new rack.

    Thats excatly it. At least it was in my case as well as I drove the car over a whole weekend and had the cahnge of some adaptation to it. If I would of had just a quick short drive, inmediately after stepping off my 997, I may have had a different opinion about the steering that the one I have. This for example did not happen with the steering of the 997.1 and 997.2 PASM models, their steering were somewhat dissapointing compared to the 997.1 with -20mm chasis, no matter how much I drove them.


    --


    Re: Ladies and gentlemen, the new 991... (LAUNCH thread)

    zeshark:
    Steering feel bothered me during my first day with the car, I completely forgot about it a month later during the second.

    Your reviews are superb! I plan to keep an eye on asphalte.ch from now on.

    I agree entirely on your summary of the 991: it is less demanding, safer, and it should sell well. Chances are that the steering is an acquired taste too, like most things in life. Although, I will be really surprised if they actually use it in serious racing. (I mean, if it's lighter and saves on hp, why isn't in F1 or WRC or Le Mans?).

    I would say that, by design, the 991 "feels slightly more universal", the obvious rationale being that this will increase sales. On the other hand, and this is not to suggest that I know better than everyone at Porsche who signed off on this new direction, there is an underlying risk: In my view, the 911's "special" character has always been good for sales by association and word-of-mouth: Because Porsche made the "difficult" 911, the stuff of legend in the sports car world, all other models automatically had "elevated status". The legendary 911 pushed sales of the Boxster, Cayman, even the Cayenne. For the purist, "status" may mean nothing but for the general public, carrying the same Porsche badge as the iconic 911 certainly was important.

    Once Porsche starts to "slightly abandon" that special character, rationalizing the move as inevitable due to technological advances and environmental constraints, ten years down the road there is a clear probability that the 911 will feel much closer to any other car within its, homogenized and "grown-up-unobtrusive-sports-car",  category (comprising Audi et al). The only way to differentiate then will be to play the numbers game: pulling 1.4g, 0-100 in 3 seconds vs 3.1, etc. At that stage, the 911's unparalleled product differentiation will have diminished, ultimately harming sales for the marque, I would dare to bet.

    I cannot help thinking that some of the 991's design choices are due to Volkswagen recently taking over the reins. They have always been close to Porsche but they are a different animal and I worry that their genes are being forced into future Porsche products. It's not the end of the world, of course, the Audi-Lamborghinis are fantastic cars, for example. Then again, they are no Miura. Smiley

     


     
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