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    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    RC:

    BMW just lost a potential M5 customer, I was really considering it because of the great value.

     BMW lost a 2nd customer too.
    So we should write to BMW maybe they will construct a special edition with AWD for usSmiley
    Smiley
    Seriously:
    I often wonder why a limo should have no AWD?
    It's only a myth that the M or AMG models are sports cars. They are far away from this. This is only promoted by the industry with support from the media so that the average consumer feel like owning a real sports car. Supposedly, according to BMW, there would be a lack of steering precision with AWD. Well, they should try it with a Panamera Turbo S or 997.2 Turbo. Lack of steering precision? Really? I can't get it.Smiley


    --
    Kind regards, Conny 

    Porsche 997.2 Turbo S  *  BMW X5 M
     

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Some die hard thinks M cars should only be with RWD, same with the manual trransmission. M had to waste tons of money and resources just to develop a manual transmission for the F10 M5 just for the US market as the Americans thinks it's a marcho thing to have.

     


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Whoopsy:

    Some die hard thinks M cars should only be with RWD, same with the manual trransmission. M had to waste tons of money and resources just to develop a manual transmission for the F10 M5 just for the US market as the Americans thinks it's a marcho thing to have.

     

    Not only Americans...you should see the many comments on the official german M forum, especially after BMW decided to abandon the V10 engine.

    The turbo charged V8 in my X5 M is a real treat (only sound is disappointing) and the automatic gearbox absolutely amazing and very fast. The perfect match for such a car and it wouldn't have been different with the M5.

    Most people don't even believe when I tell them that this is an automatic gearbox. In "M Sport" mode, this gearbox shifts very hard, extremely fast and manual shifting is fun too. I have the DCT transmission in my wife's M3 Cab as a comparison.

    The new M5 does 0-100 kph in 4.4 seconds. The Panamera Turbo S does 0-100 kph in 3.8 seconds, 0.6 seconds faster. This doesn't sound much but it is a huge difference. Despite the almost 200 kg additional weight of the Panamera Turbo S, the AWD seems to give the Panamera a huge traction advantage. 

    You should experience my X5M from standstill...the acceleration is instant, amazing, same feel as the Panamera Turbo with Sport Chrono active. I doubt that the M5 is capable of that.

    My X5 M does 0-100 kph in 4.6 seconds (review), only 0.2 seconds slower than the M5. The M5 weights almost  half a ton (!) less than my X5 M. Sorry but without AWD, the M5 is a joke. I have the same opinion about the latest Mercedes E63 AMG with Performance Package. Amazing power output, 0-200 kph in 12.7 seconds (faster than the Panamera Turbo S) but only if you are lucky enough to be able to put the power on the ground. Without AWD, these sporty sedans are useless or only fun if you want to burn some rubber (drifting).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    RC, on good, dry pavement RWD is quicker, especially at high speeds. 0-100 is not a benchmark really. 0-200 is much more relevant. I am willing to bet that the M5 will annihilate the X5M on a 0-1000 metres run.


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    I really wish BMW or Mercedes would make their sporting sedan products available in AWD.

    The ONLY situation where I prefer RWD is on the track.  It seems more responsive compared to the AWD versions of the same cars I have track driven.  

    But, if the car needs a dual life -- sport driving and daily commuting -- then AWD wins hands down.  Not even close.

    Porsche and Audi are really the only practical choices for a daily driver with sporting feel.


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT + 2008 Tesla Roadster +2010 Panamera Turbo + 2001 BMW Z8 + 1972 BMW 3.0 CSi +2009 Bentley Arnage T


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    I have absolutely no use for an AWD M5.  Where I live, you would have to drive 2 hours up the mountain just to see snow.  I like cars that have the ability for me to step the rears out when I want to be a bit silly and naughty, even if it is just for a very small angle just so I feel the limit of adhesion.  This is why I couldn't own a TTRS.  When I drove it, it was amazingly quick, but I can't do with it what I do with our M3.  Of course, when my wife is the driver, I sometimes worry about the amount of power she has when it starts raining, whether it be in our C63/E63 or M3.  I guess I would worry too with the M5.  With our X5M, it was really just "point and shoot" so I feel it takes away the element of fun. 


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    WAY:

    I have absolutely no use for an AWD M5.  Where I live, you would have to drive 2 hours up the mountain just to see snow.  I like cars that have the ability for me to step the rears out when I want to be a bit silly and naughty, even if it is just for a very small angle just so I feel the limit of adhesion.  This is why I couldn't own a TTRS.  When I drove it, it was amazingly quick, but I can't do with it what I do with our M3.  Of course, when my wife is the driver, I sometimes worry about the amount of power she has when it starts raining, whether it be in our C63/E63 or M3.  I guess I would worry too with the M5.  With our X5M, it was really just "point and shoot" so I feel it takes away the element of fun. 

    I fully respect your choice and fully understand it.  I should have said "for the climate in which I live ....".   Around here, one never knows about rain, snow, ice, whatever.  Not all year long, but often enough to matter.


    --

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT + 2008 Tesla Roadster +2010 Panamera Turbo + 2001 BMW Z8 + 1972 BMW 3.0 CSi +2009 Bentley Arnage T


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    WAY:

    I have absolutely no use for an AWD M5.  Where I live, you would have to drive 2 hours up the mountain just to see snow.  I like cars that have the ability for me to step the rears out when I want to be a bit silly and naughty, even if it is just for a very small angle just so I feel the limit of adhesion.  This is why I couldn't own a TTRS.  When I drove it, it was amazingly quick, but I can't do with it what I do with our M3.  Of course, when my wife is the driver, I sometimes worry about the amount of power she has when it starts raining, whether it be in our C63/E63 or M3.  I guess I would worry too with the M5.  With our X5M, it was really just "point and shoot" so I feel it takes away the element of fun. 

    To visualise your points, I put the following video up here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEDbJ5CAGtM&feature=player_embeddedSmiley


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Haha, every person has a different pov on fun, some like super g-force in corners, some like drifting, some like the rush of acceleration, some thinks using a manual gearbox in 2 hr of stop n go traffic is fun, to each their own.

    While BMW avoids being called copying Audi in offering high power sedans with awd, they are following exactly in Mercedes' foot steps, sedans/coupe in rwd only but awd in the SUV.

    They could have followed Porsche and doing both rwd and awd in the sedan to cater to the whole market. BUT.

    While the X5/6M handles really really well for a heavy SUV, I think the xDrive is the weak link, on the handling development side, physics dictates that the heavy SUV will not be as agile as a lighter sedan so a lower agility rating is accetable there but it's not accetable on the M5, I supect BMW just doesn't have enough expertise to dial in the M5 with awd to be as sharp as they like. Audi's quattro system is race proven, so is Porsche from the 959 days. And this deficit is the suspect in why there will be no awd in the current generation M5, BMW still need a few more years of development to work out the system.

    And for those naysayers who say you can't step out the rear and hold a drift on awd cars, look no farther than the Lambos, all has awd but they can all kick the tail out at will and drifts AND handles.

     


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Hmmmm,  Im sure you wont agree but for me RWD and a normally aspirated engine is what ///M cars are all about and are the defining attributes.  If ///M buyers wanted AWD turbo cars then they would be driving an Audi RS!!!


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Whoopsy:

    And for those naysayers who say you can't step out the rear and hold a drift on awd cars, look no farther than the Lambos, all has awd but they can all kick the tail out at will and drifts AND handles.

     

    Then again Ferraris handle better and are quicker! Smiley


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    The original M3 I presume is your definition of THE M car?

    4 cylinder, NA, manual, rwd in a light chassis, it drives like a go kart. But it only has 200hp. A sum that rwd can easily handles.

    Since that car M has moved onto Inline 6, at the time some one cry foul that M didn't follow the 4 cylinder formula. people got

    From the inline 6 M has moved onto V8. A lot of M fans cry foul again. but people got over it.

    The came the twin-turbo V8 in the X5/6M. People cry foul again. But for those that actually own the trunks or has driven the trunk, it earned universal praise for the smoothness and power delivery of the engine, instant power. Some people got over it. Modern turbo technology has pretty much killed the turbo lag, and NA engines simply cannot match the instance power delivery from turbo engines down low, they don't need to wind the engine up for power. but one thing is missing, a sexy exhaust sound, something NA engine excel at.

    Manual transmission? Most people got over it and accept the enhannced performance, sportiness of the SMG.

    RWD configuration? With HP escalating, and the technology of the awd systems, it's just a matter of time when rwd is deems ancient like carburetors.

    M is just progressing with time and technology, nothing more.


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    REALZEUS:
     

    Then again Ferraris handle better and are quicker! Smiley

     

    Haha, I wonder how the FF stack up against the Lambos :)

    fyi my dream car is still the Enzo. kiss

    Well, right after the McLaren F1.  Both rwd mid engine. Don't call me biased smiley


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    REALZEUS:
    WAY:

    I have absolutely no use for an AWD M5.  Where I live, you would have to drive 2 hours up the mountain just to see snow.  I like cars that have the ability for me to step the rears out when I want to be a bit silly and naughty, even if it is just for a very small angle just so I feel the limit of adhesion.  This is why I couldn't own a TTRS.  When I drove it, it was amazingly quick, but I can't do with it what I do with our M3.  Of course, when my wife is the driver, I sometimes worry about the amount of power she has when it starts raining, whether it be in our C63/E63 or M3.  I guess I would worry too with the M5.  With our X5M, it was really just "point and shoot" so I feel it takes away the element of fun. 

    To visualise your points, I put the following video up here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEDbJ5CAGtM&feature=player_embeddedSmiley

    I'm sorry that car looks really heavy, especially when it snaps out of a drift.  The uneasiness of the chassis balance due to weight is evident.  

    AWD or not, the priority of M division should be weight savings before anything else.


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    @Jean: It doesn't seem that nervous to me...

    @Whoopsy: I am willing to bet that the best race cars, sportscars, supercars and hypercars will always be RWD.

    PS: The FF is not a true-blood Ferrari if you ask me. Even though the 4WD system can be defeated thanfully!


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Most form of road racing bans awd because it was an unfair advantage on traction. Nissan GTR in the 80s in the Japanese circuits and Audi's Quattro in the Trans-Am series in the 80s also. They were given weight penalties to try and even the field to no avail which let to the eventual ban.

     


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Some F1 teams tried AWD systems and it was a disaster! The cars were slower in general and only had an advantage in rain! There is no question that for circuit driving, RWD is much superior to anything else. 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    REALZEUS:

    Some F1 teams tried AWD systems and it was a disaster! The cars were slower in general and only had an advantagein rain! There is no question that for circuit driving, RWD is much superior to anything else.

    In touring cars where applied, AWD had good results. I think Audi won the 1996 BTCC Titles (drivers and manufacturers Smiley) in a A4 quattro. Subsequently AWD was banned because it was deemed to have offered Audi an advantage.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Alfa Romeo too won with the 155 Q4 but it was due to a superior car in general. Most teams have won without AWD drive though. Deducting that AWD is superior because a couple of teams produced winning AWD cars is flawed, given that most teams have succeeded without it, even when fighting against AWD competition. Of course rallying is different, as the slippery surface lends itself to AWD. On a dry circuit though, RWD is superior.


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    i cannot get the traction of my C63 to the ground. even when slightly stepping on the pedal, i lose traction. i guess the 255 tires are just too little for all the power. but it's fun anyway.


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Nervous maybe not but the weight gain pretty obvious.  I used to own E60 V10 M5.


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Obviously, BMW AG can NOT...

    ... "hide" "short 7series platform" in a new 5series/M5. New 5series/M5 gained in weight. Smiley

    It looks like a PORKY on steroids sliding on a track. Where is precision ?!!!... almost the same weight as Panamera TT, 2011 Cayenne TT, old 7series. They abandoned precision for something UNKNOWN...

    E39 M5 weighted almost 1000 lbs LESS. Simillarly performing (if not even BETTER) current NissanGTR weights about 500lbs less. Seems like ONLY M3 is left nonruined by NEW BMW AG. All old and good talent/professionals left this co about ten years ago...Co board of directors made WRONG choices... Smiley

    ...in a $95K base price segment, similar base priced 2011 CayenneTT looks better and better...and more practical/usable in real life with close performance figures...

    Smiley


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    ozr:

    ...in a $95K base price segment, similar base priced 2011 CayenneTT looks better and better...and more practical/usable in real life with close performance figures...

    Smiley

     

    No, not really mate. 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    REALZEUS:
    ozr:

    ...in a $95K base price segment, similar base priced 2011 CayenneTT looks better and better...and more practical/usable in real life with close performance figures...

    Smiley

     

    No, not really mate. 

     

    You should have seen what a pro driver is capable of, under real life conditions (no track), to do with a Cayenne S, not even the Turbo, compared to the cars following him (997 Turbo S, etc.).

    Compared to the Cayenne Turbo, I'm pretty sure the M5 is more fun on the Autobahn and on the track but under real life conditions, the difference will be pretty small as I experience with my X5M. A SUV has also the advantage to carry more luggage and to be more comfortable when needed and I won't even start to explain the advantages during snowy winters over here in Bavaria when you can actually leave the M5 at home in the garage. Smiley

    I agree however that the performance difference on the track and on the Autobahn is huge. Almost 4 seconds faster from 0-200 kph and even more difference at higher speeds and of course much higher curve speeds on the track, the M5 clearly wins here.

    Looking at the Panamera Turbo S though, a car which has AWD, almost 200 kg more weight and has even slightly less power than the new BMW M5, I wonder how this car could be faster on the track, even if the difference is marginal?!  Smiley

    I am a strong believer in AWD and I really think that cars with more than 500 hp should have AWD but apparently there are still people out there who think that RWD and manual transmission are the only real thing out there.

    Btw: Modern AWD systems don't weight more than 30-50 kg, depending on the system, so I doubt it would really do any harm regarding driving dynamics on a 1800+ kg car. 

    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    2011 BMW M5 Review - Chris Harris video for Evo magazine...

    Driven: BMW M5

    What is it?

    You have to ask? The Doctor Who of fast saloon cars, regenerating for the fifth time. It’s also the first M car to have its own internal designation code (the standard 5-series is F10, this is F10M) and the first to use a turbocharged engine developed entirely by BMW Motorsport. (That last bit is a lie, but evo’s policy of not acknowledging the existence of the X5M and X6M must continue to be enforced.)

    Technical highlights?

    A dual clutch gearbox, plus a twin-turbo 4.4-litre V8 motor with the compressors sitting within the engine's vee and using a devilishly clever intake and recirculation system aimed purely at delivering the most responsive force-fed motor fitted to a motor car. The new V8 produces 552bhp and 501lb ft of torque.

    More? Well there’s an active locking differential for the driven rear-wheels (despite rumours of 4WD, this is correct-wheel-drive only, for now at least.) You get six piston brake calipers up front, sticky Michelin Super Sport tyres, a completely new set of suspension components and an 80-litre fuel tank. Overall, we’re told that 80 percent of components are either completely new, or heavily modified, from those you’ll find on a standard 5-series.

    And one technical lowlight: weight. At 1870kg, the new M5 is 90kg heavier than the old car, although it is a bigger machine.

    What’s it like to drive?

    Interesting. Mostly awe-inspiring.

    There is no other powertrain like this in a series production car. Some produce similar results in terms of outright performance, but not in the same manner. It’s perhaps the first car to match the benefits of grossly-turbocharged-low-RPM-performance with high engine speeds. This gives the effect of having a gigantic effective, useable powerband of over 5000rpm because it will pull hard enough in seventh gear -  from just 2000rpm - for the driver to assume he was in fourth. And yet there is still something to be gained from taking it all the way to the 7200rpm redline.

    The relationship with the gearbox is about as harmonious as anyone could have hoped. BMW has learned a lot about double-clutch systems and this is a masterpiece of calibration, one capable of spanning the disparate disciplines of part-throttle chugger and vein-popping, manual-shifting beserker.

    I tried to fool it and make it misbehave, but it wouldn’t. On flat upshifts, the throttle cut fires a great ‘bang’ from the four exhausts. Hit the rev limiter, then back away from the throttle and it sounds like a rally car with anti-lag switched-on.

    The noise needs more space for discussion than we have available, but here’s the outline plot. This car doesn’t have a signature voice like all of its predecessors. In trying to make something musical from an inherently un-musical engine layout, BMW has given the M5 several different voices: under full load at low engine speeds it’s a hollow, almost flat-plane drone. Then there’s a Veyron-esque surging whoosh of low frequency that gives way to a fascinating top-end that owes as much to a highly tuned Impreza as it does any previous M car.

    Steering, dampers and throttle sharpness are all 3-way adjustable. Much of this is unnecessary gimmickry. I want to drive the car in the UK before nailing my colours to the mast – but I couldn’t find a damper setting that did everything I wanted. Comfort did what it said on the tin, but ran-out of control earlier than expected. Sport restored control, but lost more compliance than  expected. Sport Plus was a bucking-bronco.

    The new seats are magnificent, the claimed 28mpg on the combined cycle looks unachievable in normal (fast-ish) driving. The performance is outrageous. I clocked it, perhaps very slightly downhill at 0-100mph in 8.7sec. Throttle response - the way you can make tiny adjustments mid-corner is the best I’ve encountered in a turbo.

    This car takes everything that made the loveable E60 M5 a pain to live with day-to-day, and systematically corrects those problems. It has touring range, torque and a great self-shifting transmission. Oh, the brakes are fine for road use, but butter on a circuit.

    How does it compare?

    No point in answering that until we drive it on UK roads with a revised Jaguar XFR and the new Bi-turbo Mercedes E63 AMG.

    Anything else I need to know?

    Yes. In a first for an M5, you can order it new with a tow-bar. All other questions will be answered in a longer story in issue 163 of the magazine.

    Verdict

    The new M5 takes the usable hyper-saloon to new levels of all-round ability. Some questions hanging over the ride and body-control still need answering when we get one in the UK later this year. But it’s a compelling package...

    Evo video: "Chris Harris gives us his first verdict on the new 'F10' BMW M5, complete with a twin-turbocharged V8 engine and double-clutch gearbox..."

    BMW-M5_Chris-Harris_YouTube-HD-video-link

    BMW-M5_Chris-Harris_evo-first-drive-review

    ...thanks again to Chris Harris!

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    RC, from what I read the Panamera Turbo S is not 200kg but "only" 100 kg heavier than the M5.

    I got a very interesting offer from my BMW dealer for an M5 with a 25% discount. If I say yes I will have a fully loaded car (my configuration) with a build date of 48th week at 95 000 EUR. But I am afraid that my priorities don't include drifting and in most real-world scenarios my RS6 will be faster. I can keep the RS6 and get the M5 but it leaves me cold...unlike the Panamera Turbo S which is all I want from a 4 door car. If not else it is worth paying +60 000 EUR just for the 4WD, the ultra-low driving position and the exclusive interior.


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    The Panamera Turbo S tested in the comparison test vs. the M5 was 170 kg heavier than the M5. Real weight. 

    25% discount sounds nice (my dealer would have given me 20%), so this is a very good deal but if you already own the RS6, the M5 doesn't make much sense. The Panamera Turbo S however is a different beast and it is quick as hell, 0-100 kph in 3.8 seconds, this is very impressive. Paying 60000 EUR more is of course something you need to re-consider but if you can afford it, go for the Panamera Turbo S. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    Car & Driver - December 2011

    BMW M5 hits 3,7 sec. 0-60 mph

    1319656314180Car & Driver (Dez_2011).jpg


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    The Panamera Turbo (not S !!!) did 0-60 mph in 3.3 seconds...Car & Driver. indecision


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: The new M5 - Official Specs

    The reason why the US magazine test times are always faster is because it is 0-96kmh and they measure it with one foot roll out like in drag racing.

     
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