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    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    I am sorry RC, Ron, Carlos, and any other moderator on this board, but this should not be on Rennteam at all.



    So you're not a big fan of "Mind of Mencia" (Comedy Central) right? This is actually one of my favorite comedy shows in US TV.
    I don't think that politics can always been excluded from discussions but I actually don't see anything wrong with it. Well...maybe you're right...this is a car forum but sometimes you have to cut people a little bit of slack, especially when they discuss serious matters like the "aftermath" of Ben's tragic death.

    I think it is really time for an off-topic forum, one which can be accessed (writing and READING) by logged in members only. We're working on it, promised.



    Which is exactly my point RC. What does the talk of illegal immigration or I should say illegal Mexican immigration have to do with a thread on the Carrera GT lawsuit?

    This is a very hot topic in Southern California where it is constantly being debated on the radio and it has gotten to be very ugly. And this has been a hot topic since the 1820s when illegal immigration caused Mexico to lose Texas.

    RC, you said in previous posts that we are an international community of Porsche devotees which include Mexican nationals and Americans of Mexican descent. The comments are not appropriate for this forum and especially on a thread on Ben's death and the resulting lawsuit.



    Since this is a "hot topic", should we not talk about it?

    I don't care if one is here illegally here from Mexico or Canada or where-ever. If laws are broken, prosecute, and serve time or pay fines. Whatever the law allows. But don't hide the discussion because it's a little too sensitive for you. About 90% of my friends and colleagues are pretty upset about the current situation. Some of these are from other countries who are now citizens, or are in the process of obtaining citizenship the legal way. They are extremely upset about how a large group of illegal immigrants are trying to get around the legal system to obtain citizenship.



    That's the main thing.

    vtrader, the fact is that at least 12 million people have broken the law and now want to get rewarded for it.
    I fully agree on employer sanctioning (this is something that has Bush in a tight spot - the voters want them out but the donors want them here).
    Guest worker programs would be very appropriate, especially if they allowed for the workers a good level of payment and security, but I wouldn't go as far as letting them get citizenship automatically. There are people who join the Marines to get citizenship and risk their life everyday in Iraq ("What's a cheaper checkpoint alternative to a Bradley? Four Mexicans.") and now these people have the guts to protest on their rights being broken?
    Regarding student visas, the country should treat everybody the same, no exceptions, unless a person would be very valuable to its economy.
    Also, doesn't it bother any Americans that English is spoken less and less in these parts?

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Not sensitive but since this will not go away...
    1) Why is there no employer enforcement and sanctions? Last year there was how many employer sanctions? Was the number zero? Big business is a big supporter of the illegals. Get rid of the jobs and presto, no more problem.




    I completely agree with this. In fact, my friends/colleagues also agree with this. The only ones who don't agree with this it appears are the politicians. As I said earlier, if laws are broken, prosecute, and serve time or pay fines. Whatever the law allows. This includes the employers.

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    2) Half of the illegals come through the airport. Every other country in this world knows which aliens are in their country but not the US.




    As I said previously, I don't care where they came from. Check everyone's identification for employment, no matter what country you come from or what race you are.

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    3) If this is all concerning US security, why are the Minuteman not at the Canadian border also? The Canadian border has had verified threats where the Mexican border has not.




    Is the Minuteman's goals only border security? Or is it to stem the flow of illegal immigration. I think you and I agree that the flow is more significant at the Mexican border.
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    4) With a country so close to us and part of our history, why cannot their citizens legally immigrate here? At least with other countries, you can get on the list and wait your turn to immigrate here. Why not the same with our closest neighbor?




    They can. But they have to get in line, along with everyone else in the world. Isn't that fair?

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    5) And this business that they do not assimilate is hogwash. Every generation that has come here has had issues. Did you know their were at least five different states that had more than one official language? We all know or should know that California was officially an English/Spanish state when it was admitted to the Union. Its official business was in English and Spanish for the first thirty years. Texas and a mid-western state included several different European languages as their official languages because they had large concentration of immigrants for those countries.
    6) We are the largest superpower in the world, yet we can not stop a family with children from just walking across the border?

    And ask your friends that immigrated here how many of them took short cuts to get here? How many are on a H1B visas or started with student visas?




    Whatever the process, they are doing it LEGALLY. My friends and colleagues who are from South America, Europe, Asia went through the legal process. These are the more emotional ones about this issue because they see what's going on and it's OBVIOUS it's not fair. They want to know why they should do things legally when you can get rewarded by doing things illegally.

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    And again my original question: Why this discussion on a thread about a Carrera GT crash?



    Well, we have an OT forum now so I guess it's not really relevant how we got here.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    That's the main thing.

    vtrader, the fact is that at least 12 million people have broken the law and now want to get rewarded for it.
    I fully agree on employer sanctioning (this is something that has Bush in a tight spot - the voters want them out but the donors want them here).
    Guest worker programs would be very appropriate, especially if they allowed for the workers a good level of payment and security, but I wouldn't go as far as letting them get citizenship automatically. There are people who join the Marines to get citizenship and risk their life everyday in Iraq ("What's a cheaper checkpoint alternative to a Bradley? Four Mexicans.") and now these people have the guts to protest on their rights being broken?
    Regarding student visas, the country should treat everybody the same, no exceptions, unless a person would be very valuable to its economy.
    Also, doesn't it bother any Americans that English is spoken less and less in these parts?



    Crash, I agree with everything you said.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Speak English?

    Immediately after the Revolutionary War, rhe Congress of the Unites States held a vote to make German the official language of the US. It lost by only one vote.

    Considering that the US bought land from France and Spain,
    and then siezed New Mexico, California, Arizona, Texas,
    Colorado and a few more areas from Mexico, I think we should embrace Spanish as the second "official" language.

    And if you want to get really serious about who should
    stay and do what etc..The 6 Spanish families that OWNED
    California were forcibly coerced to sell all of their land to John C Fremonts cronies after he seized California from Mexico.

    I say return the land deeds to those families and move the squatters off of it. Ola you'all.


    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Speak English?

    Immediately after the Revolutionary War, rhe Congress of the Unites States held a vote to make German the official language of the US. It lost by only one vote.

    Considering that the US bought land from France and Spain,
    and then siezed New Mexico, California, Arizona, Texas,
    Colorado and a few more areas from Mexico, I think we should embrace Spanish as the second "official" language.

    And if you want to get really serious about who should
    stay and do what etc..The 6 Spanish families that OWNED
    California were forcibly coerced to sell all of their land to John C Fremonts cronies after he seized California from Mexico.

    I say return the land deeds to those families and move the squatters off of it. Ola you'all.





    LOL

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    It would cure Californias smog problem.

    I say send the oakies back to where they came from!

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    I say return the land deeds to those families and move the squatters off of it. Ola you'all.




    good one

    At least the imigration the US gets are form people that mostly wnat to work and do an honest living. 80% of the inmigration we get in Spain is by people who's only intention is to comit robbery and/or drugs related with a very violent modus operanti. Crimes statistics being made by foreigners far outweight the number made by nationals, when nationals are of course the vast mayority that makes up the country and foreigners are a minority. Its ridiculous. Most come from either esatern europe (Rumania and Albania-kosovo, these are have ussually military training and are extremely violent, mostly dedicated to robery in houses and banks, they return to country of origin to spend the money and come back for more), from Northern Africa (Marroco, small theft or small drug dealing), and from South America (Colombia, drug related crime). They take advantage of our lenient legal sistem and police forces since we are n ot used to this.
    And we have a useless populist president who will do nothing about it

    There is an inmigration of people who just want to earn a decent lilving and help out their families in their countries of origin, like Ecuatorian for example. The second most important source of revenue of Ecuador, after natural gas, is the money that ecuatorians living in Spain send back to their families!

    But most of the inmigration is not like that here, its by criminals. Now that is a problem.

    Now, why are we talking about this in this thread?

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Carlos, you would be amazed at the number of Californians who do not understand why............. most of the cities, towns, counties, lakes, rivers and mountains have Spanish names.

    The most violent criminal gangs in California are actually the Honduran and Guatemalan ones. But the most influential criminal gang is the California State Legislature.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    I say return the land deeds to those families and move the squatters off of it. Ola you'all.




    good one

    At least the imigration the US gets are form people that mostly wnat to work and do an honest living. 80% of the inmigration we get in Spain is by people who's only intention is to comit robbery and/or drugs related with a very violent modus operanti. Crimes statistics being made by foreigners far outweight the number made by nationals, when nationals are of course the vast mayority that makes up the country and foreigners are a minority. Its ridiculous. Most come from either esatern europe (Rumania and Albania-kosovo, these are have ussually military training and are extremely violent, mostly dedicated to robery in houses and banks, they return to country of origin to spend the money and come back for more), from Northern Africa (Marroco, small theft or small drug dealing), and from South America (Colombia, drug related crime). They take advantage of our lenient legal sistem and police forces since we are n ot used to this.
    And we have a useless populist president who will do nothing about it

    There is an inmigration of people who just want to earn a decent lilving and help out their families in their countries of origin, like Ecuatorian for example. The second most important source of revenue of Ecuador, after natural gas, is the money that ecuatorians living in Spain send back to their families!

    But most of the inmigration is not like that here, its by criminals. Now that is a problem.

    Now, why are we talking about this in this thread?



    You and the Italians. We have these damn liberal socialistic governments and activist groups that won't do anything to curb immigration. Did you see the uproar in France when Sarkozy announced the law that would selectively pick people who could enter? The majority of protesters were Africans, Asians and Arabs, saying that it would break up families. What, did they think that they'd be allowed to bring ten family members each? Lucky for my country, we have religiously insane right-wingers in power. I may not like their corrupt economic policies (socialist, ca you believe it?), but I sure like their immigration policy .
    I must say I really liked Berlusconi's plan of placing gunboats in the Mediterranean and firing at those dinghies until they turned back or were destroyed. It's a little known fact that Al Qaeda has been caught smuggling terrorist cells into Europe via this route.
    Carlos, next time vote for Aznar.

    Jim, I realize the names are Spanish, but that doesn't mean you can just let anyone in, just because they speak Spanish. It is the territory of the United States of America. It may have been owned by Mexico before, but the Spanish weren't exactly native inhabitants, now were they? .

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Carlos, you would be amazed at the number of Californians who do not understand why............. most of the cities, towns, counties, lakes, rivers and mountains have Spanish names.



    I'd settle for them knowing that Spain is not located somewere near Mexico ... that must of been quite a short trip Columbus did from Spain to America then


    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:The most violent criminal gangs in California are actually the Honduran and Guatemalan ones.



    La Nieta, Mara-salva-trucha, latin kings... believe or not, but they have now made over to this side of the Atlantic ussualy the sons &daughters of the first generation central american inmigrants

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:But the most influential criminal gang is the California State Legislature.




    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Carlos, next time vote for Aznar.



    Yep, Aznar gave Spain the best 8 years of its democratic history. Actually I can't vote here, I'm a US citizen and never had and refused spanish citizenship

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    ..I'm a US citizen..



    And you cheer for Alonso and not Speed?!
    Shame on you Carlos.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Carlos, you would be amazed at the number of Californians who do not understand why............. most of the cities, towns, counties, lakes, rivers and mountains have Spanish names.

    ...



    Wait till they find out that so many of our cities, mountains, lakes, islands, and earthquake faults are named after Catholic saints. Where is the ACLU when you really need them?

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Can we spilt this thread?

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Can we spilt this thread?



    Might really be better off in the off-topic section, but you have to admit such threads are always amusing, as long as you take them with a good dose of sarcasm .

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    ha said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    ..I'm a US citizen..



    And you cheer for Alonso and not Speed?!
    Shame on you Carlos.



    US citizen? yes... stupid? no

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:


    I say send the oakies back to where they came from!



    You can't wipe Bakersfield off the face of the earth just like that !

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Just read the article that Alan posted on 997 Turbo board http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/jun2006/bw20060608_466074.htm Hmm... It will be very difficult for those who filed all those law suits if they loose! The cost of investigation and legal suits preparation will be sky high. Interesting thing also about the lawyer who took the case... He will try to win again on same basis as on previous case against Porsche that was handled by him.
    I will monitor the situation about this case with great(proffesional as a lawyer) interest...

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW, assuming there wasn't any immunity, if the DE could save one life wouldn't it be worth it? Any argument by a car manufacturer about cost would not be received well by a jury.



    This coming from someone who doesn't even flinch at the idea that in the year 2006, the maker of his his new $100k+ car w/ 500HP didn't feel like spending the R&D on side airbags (which are proven to save not one life but thousands), not even as an option... oh, the hipocresy...



    Carlos my position is all manufacturers must comply including Ferrari.

    The issue deals with risk/benefit. Outlawing driving will far outweigh the envitable accidents/injuries.



    Lets see, driver training for a exclusive group of people who drive a limited edition supercar or side airbags in most of the model range Ferrari offers at no cheap price either, which has a better risk/benefit ratio? and which is even easier to do (were do you draw the line on which car needs training, how about the rights of the drivers to drive a car if they have a valid drivers license like anyone else, what about thousands and thousands of sportbikes which are even harder and more dangerous to drive, what about the manufacturers and their sales losses, what about the imposibility of many owners to has access to the driver training due to were they live, etc, etc)? seems to me to be a hipocritical position, before you worry about a lesser issue on other people's driving, worry about a greater issue on your own car. Until you do, your altruistic stand towards safety seems quite thin.

    Further more, if you want makers to offer driving courses and your motivations are unbiased and true, start by the makers who offer close to none like again your own maker. Porsche offers more sportcar driver training than any other sportcar maker I can think of.



    Carlos, my cayenne does not have side airbags. Does that make it dangerous?

    With respect to DE, you are arguing details not concept. There is no doubt ALL would benefit from instruction on the operating characteristic's of a high perf. car.

    Guy's illegal immigration is a disease as a result of the widening disparity between third world countries and "first" world. We should not be surprised by this disease and the only way to treat it is to bring third world countries into the first world community. Unfortunately, economic interest place many barriers to uplifting poorer countries and thus it is a disease of our own making.

    There is no easy solution. Ultimately, whatever the resolution, it will make both side unhappy. We should concentrate on the future.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Just read the article that Alan posted on 997 Turbo board http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/jun2006/bw20060608_466074.htm Hmm... It will be very difficult for those who filed all those law suits if they loose! The cost of investigation and legal suits preparation will be sky high. Interesting thing also about the lawyer who took the case... He will try to win again on same basis as on previous case against Porsche that was handled by him.
    I will monitor the situation about this case with great(proffesional as a lawyer) interest...



    I hope they lose and take a huge financial hit. They KNOW the lawsuit is frivolous and also lie about the defect on Ben's CGT. From what I recall, the "defect" had been fixed before the accident.
    Also, nobody and I mean NOBODY could have saved that car from departing at 145 mph. The blame lies with the track for leaving the barrier exposed the way it was. Arguably, also the flag waiver and the Ferrari driver, but that is debatable.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Just read the article that Alan posted on 997 Turbo board http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/jun2006/bw20060608_466074.htm Hmm... It will be very difficult for those who filed all those law suits if they loose! The cost of investigation and legal suits preparation will be sky high. Interesting thing also about the lawyer who took the case... He will try to win again on same basis as on previous case against Porsche that was handled by him.
    I will monitor the situation about this case with great(proffesional as a lawyer) interest...



    Aren't the lawyers filing this case working on contingency basis....where if they lose, they (the law firm's partners) absorb costs....and if they win, they capture hefty share of award???....not unlike the US venture capital/hedge fund/private equity business models where the partners (and their investors) place their bets...and guys who are correct often enough drive (or are driven in) whatever car they want to their large private plane to reach one of their wkend houses....

    Sure, many frivolous lawsuits are a tax on the economy, but without these gun-slinging, uniquely US capitalist-lawyers, irresponsible cos./wealthy individuals would have little to fear if their actions/products harm another individual....and responsible cos./wealthy individuals are smart and resourceful enough to pre-emptively "arm" themselves w/strong legal defenses vs. frivolous lawsuits and build costs of settling frivolous legal issues into their cost-of-doing-business/living anyway....

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    MKW said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:


    I say send the oakies back to where they came from!



    You can't wipe Bakersfield off the face of the earth just like that !



    Don't worry! Once the real estate is restored to its
    rightful owners, we will use Bakersfield as a transit point
    for the squatters on their way East.




    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos, my cayenne does not have side airbags.



    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2003/porsche/cayenne/100215823/safety.html

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    lie about the defect on Ben's CGT. From what I recall, the "defect" had been fixed before the accident.




    Would you be willing to post a link?

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    lie about the defect on Ben's CGT. From what I recall, the "defect" had been fixed before the accident.




    Would you be willing to post a link?



    I'll try and dig it up.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos, my cayenne does not have side airbags.



    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2003/porsche/cayenne/100215823/safety.html



    Someone didn't read his owner's manual This seems to be case of many vehicle owners that are quick to sue because the car didn't do what they THOUGHT it should do vs. what it was ACTUALLY meant to do as prescribed in their owners manual.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    But don't hide the discussion because it's a little too sensitive for you. About 90% of my friends and colleagues are pretty upset about the current situation. Some of these are from other countries who are now citizens, or are in the process of obtaining citizenship the legal way. They are extremely upset about how a large group of illegal immigrants are trying to get around the legal system to obtain citizenship.



    Since I do not personally know any illegal immigrants, I found this article helpful:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5073778.stm

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    But don't hide the discussion because it's a little too sensitive for you. About 90% of my friends and colleagues are pretty upset about the current situation. Some of these are from other countries who are now citizens, or are in the process of obtaining citizenship the legal way. They are extremely upset about how a large group of illegal immigrants are trying to get around the legal system to obtain citizenship.



    Since I do not personally know any illegal immigrants, I found this article helpful:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5073778.stm



    How is it helpful?

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    But don't hide the discussion because it's a little too sensitive for you. About 90% of my friends and colleagues are pretty upset about the current situation. Some of these are from other countries who are now citizens, or are in the process of obtaining citizenship the legal way. They are extremely upset about how a large group of illegal immigrants are trying to get around the legal system to obtain citizenship.



    Since I do not personally know any illegal immigrants, I found this article helpful:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5073778.stm



    It's not about not wanting people to have a better life, but you have to draw the line SOMEWHERE.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    But don't hide the discussion because it's a little too sensitive for you. About 90% of my friends and colleagues are pretty upset about the current situation. Some of these are from other countries who are now citizens, or are in the process of obtaining citizenship the legal way. They are extremely upset about how a large group of illegal immigrants are trying to get around the legal system to obtain citizenship.



    Since I do not personally know any illegal immigrants, I found this article helpful:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5073778.stm



    How is it helpful?



    I find the article helpful because, before, I was on the side of your friends who obtained/are obtaining citizenship the legal way. I, too, know people who are legal immigrants. In an attempt to simplify and comprehend the problem, my mind created stereotypes:

    1) Legal immigrants = Good, Fair, Positive Potential Contribution
    2) Illegal immigrants = Bad, Unfair, Negative Potential Contribution

    However, as a result of this article, I can now associate at least one face and personal story with the term "illegal immigrant," cracking, PCCB-style, stereotype 2).

    Arely seems to be an illegal immigrant glowing with a positive potential any country with common sense would gladly naturalize.

    If I were like Arely, living in a mud brick house, sleeping with vermin, no shoes, beans for almost every meal, etc., I would have no compunction with respect to illegal entry into the land of Cookies'n'Cream.

    Not only has the article cracked a false stereotype sprouting in my mind, it has also helped me understand a bit better the situation by way of the following:

    "The mass of immigrants are not the cause [of the problem], they are the consequence of a system that benefited both sides."

     
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