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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    As mentioned, the Tesla Autopilot is just a glorified cruise control system. It can do more than a typical cruise control system but it's not full automation, not even close to what Elon keep saying it can do.

    Elon knows exactly what his own system's limitation is, but he can;t say the truth, cause that will have a negative effect on the stock price, and he NEEDS Tesla's stock price to be inflated in order to secure more financing that Tesla desperately needs. 

    There is a clear pattern to his behaviour. He keep saying lofty stuff to boost stock price, even when he knows for sure his company can't fulfill whatever he promised in the time frame he promised. He is trapped in a vicious cycle right now that he can't get out of.

     

     

     

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Well it is not as black or white as that. The problem is that Musk is very involved in the development of the autonomous system and that he sees things in the lab that are very far from prime time, or even things that work in some cases but not good enough eventually to release full scale. And this probably clouds his judgement.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    His judgement of course is clouded, especially he went all in with his camera based system while everyone else that came later wen the other way. He had no choice but to make it work somehow or else they will be forced to back track and will be so far off competition that they might as well fold it up.

    Another problem with him is that he simply can't focus. He is juggling so many balls, even within one company i.e. Tesla, and the ball itself aren't even ready yet and he starts throwing another not even ready ball.

    Tesla the car company is still a mess, his focus should be fixing it first, not trying to start a Tesla insurance or Tesla robotaxi or whatever he dreams up the night before. The board should have reign him in a long time ago.

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Your reply about Musk is much too generous.  It is because of his expert guidance, leadership, and knowledge that Tesla is having the problems it is having today.  There was a reason why Musk was put in the trunk while at PayPal and this is but another example of why it becomes necessary to make changes in management once a founder, a term one uses very loosely about Musk at Tesla, can no longer take a company to the next level.  However, this time, Musk has sought out various means of maintaining control even to the detriment of the company and its shareholders.  

    In other Tesla financial news, the fixed income markets responded accordingly to yesterday's Q1 2019 financial results with a higher yields on its junk bonds as compensation for increased risk.   https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-capital/new-capital-for-tesla-will-come-at-a-cost-idUSKCN1S11UG

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    spudgun:

    It still is and always will be a very boring looking automobile. Life is too short to drive ugly cars.

    For once we agree on something. The car looks like the old communist cars. Plain vanilla. 

    The company has serious issues with cash flow and will need a cash infusion. Though Musk is a visionary more importantly he is a risk taker and not afraid to bet the house. Unfortunately, his action will not determine his company's fate. The competition will.

    As more automakers introduce EV's with an eye toward being competitive against Tesla, Tesla will lose market share. Either he increases prices or he continues to borrow. Iff he increases prices he'll lose more market share. It's the nightmare of any executive. 


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    There is nothing stronger than gentleness.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Unfortunately, Musk has been able to convince his acolytes that he is the messiah and his vision is the only one worth pursuing to save the world from extinction.  This influence causes those acolytes to view competition in very negative ways, for example, suggesting that Porsche isn't capable of delivering fully self driving vehicles.  Of course, this is not the goal of Porsche with its next generation of electric vehicles.  

    What else is glaring with Tesla's current financials is the drop in Capex as Musk continues to take the company into more and more projects, all being thinly funded.  Tesla really needs to increase investment in replacements for its Model S and X, as well as continue development of the badly needed, given that Musk has jumped with both feet into the mass markets, Model Y.  The company also needs to bolster its distribution, sales, and after-sales service segments, not weaken it.  This means, especially to move into the mass markets more successfully, brick-and-mortar locations, not solely an Internet presence.  Tesla realistically needs to examine the net contribution of its Supercharger network.  The cashflow needed to operate the proprietary charging network remains prohibitive.  Management, after all, is the allocation of scarce resources, namely capital; something that Musk lacks basic skills in doing.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Tesla owner claims Autopilot saved family from crash in near miss caught on video

    https://apple.news/A7hY7SYEHRviFiFGOvzaM0w

    I found a great use for autopilot: traffic jams. At the low speeds with a lot of cars around, it is simply stunning. It is also pretty good at changing lanes by itself. It is not very good at merging lanes though.

    It seems that the car only allows 88kw of usable battery of of 100. Today I used 44kw and the battery went from 90% to 40%. After more reading, first it seems that the software reserves 5% that you cannot use, a “bricking” protection. Second, the 44kw used is only the drivetrain usage. Meaning no AC, no radio, no vampire draw during idle... nothing. And that’s with an EPA rating of 295 miles for 100kw pack (apparently it is a 102kw pack). I can only imagine how bad a 210 miles EPA rated EV will be. In this case, the 295 miles transform into 192 miles real life.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    As mentioned, the Tesla Autopilot is just a glorified cruise control system. It can do more than a typical cruise control system but it's not full automation, not even close to what Elon keep saying it can do.

    Elon knows exactly what his own system's limitation is, but he can;t say the truth, cause that will have a negative effect on the stock price, and he NEEDS Tesla's stock price to be inflated in order to secure more financing that Tesla desperately needs. 

    There is a clear pattern to his behaviour. He keep saying lofty stuff to boost stock price, even when he knows for sure his company can't fulfill whatever he promised in the time frame he promised. He is trapped in a vicious cycle right now that he can't get out of.

     

     

     

     

    The pinacle is Tusks claim to have 1 million self driving taxis on the street next year. He must be under drugs... 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Drugs plus desperation is a very dangerous combination.  This is another ill-conceived plot to booster Tesla’s market cap by trying to emulate the riding sharing company’s Lyft and Uber as they go public.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    It does not seem that the equity and debt analysts covering Tesla are taking the "robo-taxi" idea seriously. Why should they? Tesla's autopilot technology does not work at Level 4 or 5 autonomy. Regulations do not allow it. Legal implications of Tesla robo-taxis crashing are not good. Driverless vehicles may work in a controlled environment, but cannot safely react to unforeseen circumstances in the real world. If they could, there wouldn't be Teslas driving into parked fire-trucks. It turns out that technology can be rather dumb...

    I appreciate it sounds like a neat solution for all the excess inventory sitting in parking lots, but that is a demand problem.

    The most important reason that this makes no sense is that owning a car that looks like a taxi is not cool. 

    New York taxi, London taxi, Frankfurt taxi... not cool on your driveway! Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    ........New York taxi, London taxi, Frankfurt taxi... not cool on your driveway! Smiley

    Aren't all German taxis Mercedes sedans Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    964C2:
    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    ........New York taxi, London taxi, Frankfurt taxi... not cool on your driveway! Smiley

    Aren't all German taxis Mercedes sedans Smiley

     

    Smiley

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    It does not seem that the equity and debt analysts covering Tesla are taking the "robo-taxi" idea seriously. Why should they? Tesla's autopilot technology does not work at Level 4 or 5 autonomy. Regulations do not allow it. Legal implications of Tesla robo-taxis crashing are not good. Driverless vehicles may work in a controlled environment, but cannot safely react to unforeseen circumstances in the real world. If they could, there wouldn't be Teslas driving into parked fire-trucks. It turns out that technology can be rather dumb...

    I appreciate it sounds like a neat solution for all the excess inventory sitting in parking lots, but that is a demand problem.

    The most important reason that this makes no sense is that owning a car that looks like a taxi is not cool. 

    New York taxi, London taxi, Frankfurt taxi... not cool on your driveway! Smiley

    Just another of his vainglorious attempts to juice the stock.  Smart money has become wiser w.r.t. TSLA.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Came across an excellent video of a damaged Tesla Model 3 and the issues of the repair.   Well worth watching for anyone considering purchasing a Tesla.  There are numerous issues from availability of certified repair centers to parts.   The cost for a simple, low speed hit of the rear with a side of a garage is over $6,000.  While this car may be safe, repairability was not a design parameter.   Tech statements starting around the 20 minute mark highlight, unfortunately severe manufacturing deficiencies not found, for example, with Audi.  https://youtu.be/tAnJPknzMYQ

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Someone rear ended me at 25mph with the RRS. Damage was very simple and purely cosmetic and the bill was $6,500.

    Anyway that’s why you have insurance for...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    The posting above isn’t about the price of the repairs but the issues that are uniquely Tesla as procedures and processes seem to change from car to car.  They note in the video, if you had bothered to even view the section highlighted, that Tesla replacement parts are dirt cheap, if the body shop is able to get them for the necessary repairs.  The tech, who is both Tesla and Audi certified, stresses that there are significant differences between the two and basically considers the cars hand built, and not in a flattering way.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    I found a great use for autopilot: traffic jams.

     

    That's pretty much the only use for it I feel comfortable with right now when driving my sister's Model 3.  That's why earlier I say it's really a sophisticated cruise control, not "autopilot".  You can definitely relax much more in traffic with this, but it's pretty bad at changing lanes to be honest.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Regarding autopilot I'd say that it is an absolute dealbreaker for me in a daily  driver. It's such a revelation to drive with Autopilot on work commutes and also on longer roadtrips which I don't find amusing anyway. I did a recent 700 mile roadtrip with Autopilot engaged for 95% of the time. Auto lane changes at least for me work excellent and it's just in heavy traffic where it eventually has some issues changing lanes because it's too conservative and want to have a larger gap than actually is reqiured. Safety first I guess. In situations where there is heavy traffic it is just more relaxing staying in a lane anyway and if you'd like to drive like a maniac moving between lanes (and save a few seconds on the commute) that can always be done manual and that also require some more engagement from the driver. Driving with moderate traffic when it get's really boring, the Autopilot and lane changes works very well and feels very safe and relaxing.

    Tesla have unfortunately had issues with software version 2019.8.x. Previous version and the later 2019.12.x are much improved in the regards to sudden small phantom brakes (e.g. braking from 75mph -> 65mph when it thinks there is an obstacle). Reading on Internet when having experienced all different scenarios myself I can just consider it being exaggerated issues where storys are spinned based on minor events. And this is unfortunately how things are with Tesla where there is a bunch who exaggerate and amplify every little tiny negative detail into something big. We have never witnessed something similar for other Automakers and this is not because they are perfect, just because people doesn't care and there is no group of people that work 24/7 to spread FUD about the companies.

    Looking forward to hear more from SciFrog when he's on a new version and also have getting used to the system for some more miles. I predict that there will be a lot of positive words coming. But we'll see.



    Re: Tesla Roadster

    keithw:

    Does anyone have this issue or a subscription? Would be interesting to know if it's somewhat of a sensational or click-bait cover, or reasonably factual.

     

    Here are some more details.

    58374656_2728390387187701_2061154397328506880_n.jpg

    TopGear will release a video soon with the testing. In general they were both surprised and very impressed with the Model 3 Performance. Interesting that they did like the suspension setup better on the Model 3. Better in normal road driving and did absorb imperfections, but at the same time calibrated for some spirited driving.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    CGX car nut:

    The posting above isn’t about the price of the repairs but the issues that are uniquely Tesla as procedures and processes seem to change from car to car.  They note in the video, if you had bothered to even view the section highlighted, that Tesla replacement parts are dirt cheap, if the body shop is able to get them for the necessary repairs.  The tech, who is both Tesla and Audi certified, stresses that there are significant differences between the two and basically considers the cars hand built, and not in a flattering way.  

    Of course not ideal, but that is what comes with constant improvements and focus on safety. What was interesting in the video was that his comments about "hand built" was aimed towards Model S/X and that the Model 3 is much better in this regard.

    Tesla have an edge in drivetrain and software but haven't nailed it in every area when it comes to mass manufacturing challenges (yet). China factory and the rumored new factory in Germany will probably be much improved in this regard. For me having first hand experience with the products I think in general the panel gap thing and quality issues are much exaggerated and I consider the products being good enough even in this regard. If there are issues with the car Tesla will remedy them without any questions asked and after one shop visit the car is perfect. If that is the case it is absolutely worth it since every other bit of the car is so damn good.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    The way a neural net "sees" things is very very different from humans. Because of this, such a net will exhibit very different failures than us humans. One example is when the car chooses the wrong street markings in a construction zone or misinterprets what's left or right of the car or doesn't recognize the truck in front.  Everyone who has driven with AP (or similar advanced systems) has experienced such erroneous behavior.

    There is quite some research in that area, one being called "Adversarial Images". These are images with subtle modifications that will fool a certain algorithms (but not humans). Here is an example of such images - bottom row has the modified version and what a certain classifier detects,  the top row has the originals [1]

    Bildschirmfoto 2019-04-27 um 15.03.21.png

    Something similar has been done with traffic signs [3 (can not find the paper I am thinking of, but this one is close] and with cats [4]. Obviously adversarial images can not only be designed in a lab but may happen in the wild.

    [1]  https://arxiv.org/pdf/1712.07113.pdf
    [2]  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1sp4X57TL4&feature=youtu.be
    [3]  https://thenewstack.io/camouflaged-graffiti-road-signs-can-fool-machine-learning-models/
    [4]  https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/2/16597276/google-ai-image-attacks-adversarial-turtle-rifle-3d-printed


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    964C2:
    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    ........New York taxi, London taxi, Frankfurt taxi... not cool on your driveway! Smiley

    Aren't all German taxis Mercedes sedans Smiley

    We have a couple of Tesla S taxis here as well now... They want to appeal to a "greener" customer base. 😛

    Btw: German taxis are not only Mercedes but also BMW, Audi (seldom), Opel, VW and others.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    964C2:
    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    ........New York taxi, London taxi, Frankfurt taxi... not cool on your driveway! Smiley

    Aren't all German taxis Mercedes sedans Smiley

    We have a couple of Tesla S taxis here as well now... They want to appeal to a "greener" customer base. 😛

    Btw: German taxis are not only Mercedes but also BMW, Audi (seldom), Opel, VW and others.

    1556378189995image.jpeg

    ...only a few thousand extra for the yellow paint, taxi decals and roof light! Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    and we have Police Tesla's, they dropped the Mercedes  indecision They are taking the world over angry I was in the Maldives . At the airport , the best place for limousines  , right outside the front door, was reserved for Tesla X's !!!!! 

    1544121371_tesla 2.JPG

    944scxppdv221.jpg

     


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:

    Regarding autopilot I'd say that it is an absolute dealbreaker for me in a daily  driver. It's such a revelation to drive with Autopilot on work commutes and also on longer roadtrips which I don't find amusing anyway. I did a recent 700 mile roadtrip with Autopilot engaged for 95% of the time. Auto lane changes at least for me work excellent and it's just in heavy traffic where it eventually has some issues changing lanes because it's too conservative and want to have a larger gap than actually is reqiured. Safety first I guess. In situations where there is heavy traffic it is just more relaxing staying in a lane anyway and if you'd like to drive like a maniac moving between lanes (and save a few seconds on the commute) that can always be done manual and that also require some more engagement from the driver. Driving with moderate traffic when it get's really boring, the Autopilot and lane changes works very well and feels very safe and relaxing.

    Tesla have unfortunately had issues with software version 2019.8.x. Previous version and the later 2019.12.x are much improved in the regards to sudden small phantom brakes (e.g. braking from 75mph -> 65mph when it thinks there is an obstacle). Reading on Internet when having experienced all different scenarios myself I can just consider it being exaggerated issues where storys are spinned based on minor events. And this is unfortunately how things are with Tesla where there is a bunch who exaggerate and amplify every little tiny negative detail into something big. We have never witnessed something similar for other Automakers and this is not because they are perfect, just because people doesn't care and there is no group of people that work 24/7 to spread FUD about the companies.

    Looking forward to hear more from SciFrog when he's on a new version and also have getting used to the system for some more miles. I predict that there will be a lot of positive words coming. But we'll see.

     

    It really isn't.

    Every car companies have had their share of negative publicity, Toyota has the death trap accelerator pedal, Honda mostly with that airbag thing, Ford had the Explorer Firestone tire thing, VW had the Dieselgate, etc.

    There is no 'secret' agenda to trash Tesla. It's all self inflicted by Elon. He promised the moon but gives people the turd. But to Tesla fanboys that turd is a golden turd and wouldn't shut up in telling people how good their turd is. Hence why he general public has such a big push back against anything Tesla. Action and reaction.

    Now if Tesla fanboys just act normal, and skip the high pressure sales tactics about how 'great' their Tesla is, the general public do have a brain, they will discover the good of having a Tesla themselves. As some of you have mentioned, the 'convenience' of not having go to gas station is Ann appeal to certain people, the amazing acceleration from rest also appeals to others, and the prospect of using an advanced cruise control system is also appealing to another group of people, naturally people looking for those attributes WILL flock to the Tesla showroom and get a car. Plain and simple.

    At the end of the day, Teslas are not bad cars, they are just different cars. 

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    For those with a predilection for Tesla, here's a factory tour and road trip by Top Gear magazine...

    Video Link:  https://youtu.be/3gsS-Q3j_Pk


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    lukestern:

    ...

    Tesla have unfortunately had issues with software version 2019.8.x. Previous version and the later 2019.12.x are much improved in the regards to sudden small phantom brakes (e.g. braking from 75mph -> 65mph when it thinks there is an obstacle). Reading on Internet when having experienced all different scenarios myself I can just consider it being exaggerated issues where storys are spinned based on minor events. And this is unfortunately how things are with Tesla where there is a bunch who exaggerate and amplify every little tiny negative detail into something big. We have never witnessed something similar for other Automakers and this is not because they are perfect, just because people doesn't care and there is no group of people that work 24/7 to spread FUD about the companies.

    ...

     

    It really isn't.

    Every car companies have had their share of negative publicity, Toyota has the death trap accelerator pedal, Honda mostly with that airbag thing, Ford had the Explorer Firestone tire thing, VW had the Dieselgate, etc.

    ...

     

    I disagree. Regardless of how good or bad Tesla cars, company or governance are, there are many people who are very afraid of what Tesla is doing. Not only they are trying to experiment and rewrite the automobile industry, services and distribution, but they are for the first time in decades an American company threatening the dominance of the Germans manufacturers. They are also rewriting the book on the primordial and deciding characteristics of a car. Germans have dominated with handling, design and interior quality. Tesla is dominating with software, tech, autopilot, efficiency and practicality on top of the EV tech.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Tesla HAD the monopoly on EV till now. But it would seems they are the one getting afraid, not the other way around.

    Their Model 3 orders have dried up, up coming Model Y is going to steal even more Model 3 buyers, company is running out of money, the top end of the market will be invaded by the Germans and British. The low end are getting hit by the Japanese, Koreans and soon the Chinese. They are like the Samsung of cellphones, Can't beat Apple o the top end while getting attacked by the cheaper Chinese constrantly. But Tesla has craved up enough of a market presence that they will survive. 

    It was nice for them to show up and give the normal car makers a wake up call, but in doing so they have awoken many sleeping giants. 

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Well that was one of the goal of Tesla, so at least in that they have more than succeeded.

    They will survive, they have showed they can be adaptative enough to make the numbers work. Equity and debt might be wiped out in the process though, but that’s another story.

    In the meantime, some here don’t want to hear it but they are building great cars, great enough that several people here have them in their garage even over brands like Porsche. In itself, that’s an amazing feat. Personally I have not been this excited with a car since I bought my first Ferrari a decade ago, mainly because they represent the future of automobiles.


     
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