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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    There has been a lot written about it in forums, it is not minuscule. Even Tesla way back then adjusted the range on the build page when you selected bigger wheels. I remember the gap was somewhere in the 5% difference... The compound also affects the range, the 20” has foam inside the tire to help... the new model that just came out also has new tires to help efficiency.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Tire compounds will likely make the biggest difference, not wheel size.

    Tesla could have gone for full ECO rated tires like those on Prius for maximum mileage.

    My old Odyssey was on ECO tires, when I switched to normal tires, the fuel mileage decreased by almost 15%

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Maybe Luke or Mike can help on something,

    today I used 20.5kw of battery yet my % display went from 89.9% to 68.0%. So I am “missing” 1.4kw of energy if you consider the 100kw battery is actually 98kw (102 minus 4 of reserve for bricking protection)...

    the reason why it matters a lot because I would like to make 4 of these trips with one charge, and 20.5x4= 82kw so that should work, yet (89.9-68)*4=87.6% which is too close to the 90% battery I have to use (I set the limit at 90% since these are daily drives).

    Maybe I read somewhere that the energy usage is only the drivetrain and not all the auxiliary systems like AC/heat, radio or computer running but that seems a bit odd, while the battery % is an actual measure of the state of the battery. Maybe the continuous battery conditioning?

    In the grand scheme of things, it is 7% or 20 miles so no biggie but my mathematician and OCD side is not content with this fuzzy calculation. Maybe that’s the 22” wheels difference? But you would think the drivetrain measure is actual, not estimated... This is not the phantom draw either, which would further reduce the real mileage you could drive, since the car was just charged.

    Last data set, using the % usage, I still get a real first hand range of 228 miles with that 90% limit and 22” wheels which gives 250 miles vs the EPA rating of 295 (with 20” wheels). And that’s in not too hot or too cold weather. If you apply the same ratio to the ETron, 208 EPA miles become 176 miles, and if you take 30% off for bad winter driving, you are at 123 miles, ouch. My winter range would still be 175 miles for 0-100 so 140 miles for 10-90, which works for me. The 123 for the Etron would be 110 (going from 0-90 to 10-90, Audi might have indicated they already reserve 10% ish at the top, Tesla lets users tap in, Audi does not). Of course that 110 miles range is an extreme case, but people need to know what driving an EV means and the compromises that exist today. The new Teslas are 10-15% more efficient that the number I gave...

    In the end, to really relieve range anxiety in any conditions, EV need to get close to 400 EPA miles range. The current Tesla S with a 120kw pack would be there (or a X with a 135kw pack). Within a few years, 150kw pack will be fitted and efficiency will yet increase some and hybrids will be history except for a few applications.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    On another note, some autopilot observations:

    today the autopilot handled that tricky ramp with a satisfactory level of confidence. It took it and merged onto incoming traffic despite being a very short merge lane.

    the car detected and stopped when it detected stationary cars at a traffic light. I have not seen any other adaptative cruise control do that.

    the car managed to stick in its lane when the center markings were gone. It guessed correctly where the line was, pretty impressive.

    We are still far from a fully autonomous system in all conditions, but this system is way beyond a glorified cruise control.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Nov 2017 https://electrek.co/2017/11/10/tesla-model-s-model-x-wheel-size-affect-efficency/  says:

    4.9% more consumption for Model S P100D with 21″ vs 19″ wheels.
    5.2% more consumption for Model S P90D with 21″ vs 19″ wheels.
    11.6% more consumption for Model S 60/75 with 21″ vs 19″ wheels.
    11.8% more consumption for Model S 60D/75D/90D with 21″ vs 19″ wheels.
    22.2% more consumption for Model X P90D with 22″ vs 20″ wheels.
    22.5% more consumption for Model X 60D/75D/90D with 22″ vs 20″ wheels.
    23.3% more consumption for Model X P100D with 22″ vs 20″ wheels.

    So Model X is badly affected by large wheels.

    More detail on the page
     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Great. These were measured on a dyno so once you factor in air resistance, the numbers can drop a lot.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    the car detected and stopped when it detected stationary cars at a traffic light. I have not seen any other adaptative cruise control 

    Not an expert on these systems but we just had a Volvo S90 as a loaner. This car also comes with this feature. Worked quite well. To start off again you had to press the throttle.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Volvo and Cadillac are supposed to have good systems, I have not tried them. The key here is to detect the car when stationary, the Porsche and Land Rover system work only if the car in front is moving, even slowly.

    BTW the Tesla reaccelerates by itself, no need to touch the pedals. In bad traffic jams, that is just a saver.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Martin Day:

    Nov 2017 https://electrek.co/2017/11/10/tesla-model-s-model-x-wheel-size-affect-efficency/  says:

    4.9% more consumption for Model S P100D with 21″ vs 19″ wheels.
    5.2% more consumption for Model S P90D with 21″ vs 19″ wheels.
    11.6% more consumption for Model S 60/75 with 21″ vs 19″ wheels.
    11.8% more consumption for Model S 60D/75D/90D with 21″ vs 19″ wheels.
    22.2% more consumption for Model X P90D with 22″ vs 20″ wheels.
    22.5% more consumption for Model X 60D/75D/90D with 22″ vs 20″ wheels.
    23.3% more consumption for Model X P100D with 22″ vs 20″ wheels.

    So Model X is badly affected by large wheels.

    More detail on the page
     

    Kudos to the Audi UK Press Group for supplying a more efficient e-tron for this comparison test.  They did exactly what was needed to showcase the product.  Meanwhile, Tesla often doesn’t respond to media requests and publications are required to borrow product from willing owners.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    @SciFrog, to answer some of your concerns.

    Even if you have 98kWh energy, it can differ over time and depend on condition, temperatures, etc how much of these 98kWh you actually have at your disposal. Also it affect how well the calibration of the BMS is. The consumption you see should include AC, electronics etc, but important to note is that this is all when you drive the car and it's not parked (P). So even if you take a quick stop over, idle in the car and listen to some music, this drain will be "lost" in the figures you see that show consumption. Loosing 1.4kWh as you report could be within the error margin afaik. Which temperatures do you have around where you drive right now?

    To eliminate any sort of range anxiety I would start to use the Energy graph available in the car and learn how range is affected under different circumstances, driving conditions, etc and you will gain confidence quite quickly. You can set it to 10km, 25km or 50km (whatever that is in miles) and it will display how much range you have left based on your last 10,25 or 50 driven kilometers. This will be your best prediction about remaining range under the circumstances and speed that you currently drive. And if you run low on charge, slowing down will always decrease consumption a lot and get you to your destination. This is however a situation that you will never run into if you learn the limits of your particular car. The tools are very reliable and accurate, you just need to gain the confidence to trust them.

    And regarding charging only to 90% I'm not sure why you do that if you have a longer trip planned? There are no issues charging to 100% or take the car down to 0% as long as you don't let the car sit on this State Of Charge levels for a long period of time. You should for instance not charge the car to 100% and then let it sit for 2 days. But if you charge it to 100% and drive off within some hours after there is absolutely no issues. It is actually even good for the battery to fully charge and discharge it now and then. Also for the accuracy of the BMS it is good to do this because if you let's say always charge between 20-80% it can result in that the BMS doesn't calculate accurate all the time.

    All in all this seems like some cumbersome details, but in the real world this is most often something you even need to think about. The daily commutes are covered within the range of the battery anyway and I assume that you have Superchargers en route if you drive longer stretches? Why not just pop in for a 10 minute charge to be on the safe side?


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    BTW Tesla stock and bonds surges as they announced plans to raise $1.3b in debt and $650m in equity. As mentioned before, as long as they manage to raise money, they are not in trouble. And it seems like they will do it with some ease.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    the car detected and stopped when it detected stationary cars at a traffic light. I have not seen any other adaptative cruise control 

    Not an expert on these systems but we just had a Volvo S90 as a loaner. This car also comes with this feature. Worked quite well. To start off again you had to press the throttle.

    Audi has Traffic Jam Assist and it functions similarly. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    BTW Tesla stock and bonds surges as they announced plans to raise $1.3b in equity and $650m in stock. As mentioned before, as long as they manage to raise money, they are not in trouble. And it seems like they will do it with some ease.

    That should be $1.35 bn with a right of the banks to increase to $ 1.55 bn in convertible notes and $ 650 m in common stock or equity.   Convertible notes are debt, not equity; however, the bond holder has the right to convert to equity if a certain equity price threshold is met by the company.   This helps to maximize the upside while minimizing to downside for investor while minimizing cash flow demands on the issuer.

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:

    @SciFrog, to answer some of your concerns.

    Even if you have 98kWh energy, it can differ over time and depend on condition, temperatures, etc how much of these 98kWh you actually have at your disposal. Also it affect how well the calibration of the BMS is. The consumption you see should include AC, electronics etc, but important to note is that this is all when you drive the car and it's not parked (P). So even if you take a quick stop over, idle in the car and listen to some music, this drain will be "lost" in the figures you see that show consumption. Loosing 1.4kWh as you report could be within the error margin afaik. Which temperatures do you have around where you drive right now?

    To eliminate any sort of range anxiety I would start to use the Energy graph available in the car and learn how range is affected under different circumstances, driving conditions, etc and you will gain confidence quite quickly. You can set it to 10km, 25km or 50km (whatever that is in miles) and it will display how much range you have left based on your last 10,25 or 50 driven kilometers. This will be your best prediction about remaining range under the circumstances and speed that you currently drive. And if you run low on charge, slowing down will always decrease consumption a lot and get you to your destination. This is however a situation that you will never run into if you learn the limits of your particular car. The tools are very reliable and accurate, you just need to gain the confidence to trust them.

    And regarding charging only to 90% I'm not sure why you do that if you have a longer trip planned? There are no issues charging to 100% or take the car down to 0% as long as you don't let the car sit on this State Of Charge levels for a long period of time. You should for instance not charge the car to 100% and then let it sit for 2 days. But if you charge it to 100% and drive off within some hours after there is absolutely no issues. It is actually even good for the battery to fully charge and discharge it now and then. Also for the accuracy of the BMS it is good to do this because if you let's say always charge between 20-80% it can result in that the BMS doesn't calculate accurate all the time.

    All in all this seems like some cumbersome details, but in the real world this is most often something you even need to think about. The daily commutes are covered within the range of the battery anyway and I assume that you have Superchargers en route if you drive longer stretches? Why not just pop in for a 10 minute charge to be on the safe side?

    Thank you for the response. 7% seems high for a margin of error. Temp are in the 60s... There was no idling today, just straight drive.

    I use the graphs extensively to gain confidence in the estimations, which are pretty good.

    These trips are daily commutes, not exceptional trips, I should really set the limit at 90% and not 100%. Anyway there are 3 super chargers on the way, but I am just trying to be on the safe side if the garage forgets to charge the car and I don’t realize it (well I can always use the other car in the garage). That’s why it would be nice to be able to do two round trips with confidence, but clearly this is not a deal breaker. But the 208 EPA range of the Etron, IF it translates in real life as the same ratio vs the 295 X EPA range, would be a deal breaker because of the winter.

    Like you said, maybe it is a calibration issue. Are there tools to analyze this?

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    CGX car nut:
    SciFrog:

    BTW Tesla stock and bonds surges as they announced plans to raise $1.3b in equity and $650m in stock. As mentioned before, as long as they manage to raise money, they are not in trouble. And it seems like they will do it with some ease.

    That should be $1.35 bn with a right of the banks to increase to $ 1.55 bn in convertible notes and $ 650 m in common stock or equity.   Convertible notes are debt, not equity; however, the bond holder has the right to convert to equity if a certain equity price threshold is met by the company.   This helps to maximize the upside while minimizing to downside for investor while minimizing cash flow demands on the issuer.

     

    Sorry I wrote too fast... corrected but not before you caught it... I am pretty familiar with convertible notes Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Thank you for the response. 7% seems high for a margin of error. Temp are in the 60s... There was no idling today, just straight drive.

    Agree that 7% is a bit high. My guess is however that it has to do with the battery heating up reaching optimal temperatures and that there are som heat loss in this process. I assume you didn't pre-heat the car before taking off? If you had this would probably have helped. Temps in the 60s are quite below optimal battery temperatures.

    I'm pretty sure though that if you had continue to drive without stopping, the error margin would have decreased because the heat loss is drivetrain excess energy usage is a big hit the first driven miles.

    I use the graphs extensively to gain confidence in the estimations, which are pretty good.

    These trips are daily commutes, not exceptional trips, I should really set the limit at 90% and not 100%. Anyway there are 3 super chargers on the way, but I am just trying to be on the safe side if the garage forgets to charge the car and I don’t realize it (well I can always use the other car in the garage). That’s why it would be nice to be able to do two round trips with confidence, but clearly this is not a deal breaker. But the 208 EPA range of the Etron, IF it translates in real life as the same ratio vs the 295 X EPA range, would be a deal breaker because of the winter.

    If you can, it's of course always best to keep the car always plugged in when possible. And in the event where the car somehow is not charged one has to accept a quick stop at a Supercharger. Don't really see the problem with that.

    Winter range is not as bad if you drive longer stretches. What kills the range is if you drive shorter stops, use a lot of energy to warm up the battery, then stop for 2 hours having the car sit outside in the cold, then drive again and need to warm up the battery. That procedure will probably half the range, but on longer trips it is still pretty good range even in winter when you drive longer.

    For me at least none of these things has been issues at all. I was more scared before I tested and now I never even think about any range issues. It is however nice to pre-warm and pre-cool the car to always have nice temp in the cabin when setting off.

    If you have the car sitting in the garage plugged-in make sure that you pre-climate the car before you leave and all this required energy will be pulled from the wall-socket instead of from the battery when you drive off. Can save a lot of miles.

    Like you said, maybe it is a calibration issue. Are there tools to analyze this?

    No tools and only Tesla have access to those details. Or those guys hacking the car :)
    It is recommended to charge the car to 100% from time to time, this will allow the BMW to calibrate so do charge it up to 100% if you haven't already since you got the car.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    BTW Tesla stock and bonds surges as they announced plans to raise $1.3b in debt and $650m in equity. As mentioned before, as long as they manage to raise money, they are not in trouble. And it seems like they will do it with some ease.

     

    As I understands, the conversion price is ~30% premium, so this time they are more realistic about their stock price.

    That extra 2 billion plus perhaps another 15 % will go a long way to help the company if Elon doesn't waste it on stupid stuff.

    Model Y rollout should be quite well funded now, after this round. I think they should use some of that money to refresh the Model S/X, those have been stuck for a long time, every else gone through at least one refresh already. 

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    ...[D]oesn’t waste on stupid stuff...That’s a great leap of faith given his track record.  Much of these funds will be diverted to the Roadster 2.0, the truck, and the semi, with rest allocated to full self-driving, the insurance plan, and other flights of fancy.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Pre heating only makes sense when the car is plugged until you jump in it to drive it. Mine is unplugged by the attendant when full. The gap started close to zero and kept increasing proportionally, but anyway this should be counted as the car is moving... good to know about winter not as bad for medium length drives since that’s the bulk of what I do.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Pre heating only makes sense when the car is plugged until you jump in it to drive it. Mine is unplugged by the attendant when full. The gap started close to zero and kept increasing proportionally, but anyway this should be counted as the car is moving... good to know about winter not as bad for medium length drives since that’s the bulk of what I do.

    Why is the car unplugged when "full"? Is it because the car is moved to another parking spot by your attendant? If not I'd change that procedure and have the flexibility via the App to change charge-level on demand and also pre-heat it when feasible.

    Of course all this doesn't matter if you're not concerned about the range and very seldom run below 20% anyway. But since you asked initially and had some concerns I don't find it rational to have the car unplugged if not necessary Smiley

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    There are pretty reliable sources indicating some sort of Model X and S refresh coming in July/August. Completely new interior and a smaller outside facelift with new taillights, headlights and some new wheel designs. Also active aero with new spoilers both front and back that will adapt.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    They charge other cars too sometimes, there are only 3 chargers and for space optimization they move the cars around.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    They charge other cars too sometimes, there are only 3 chargers and for space optimization they move the cars around.

    Ah, makes sense then Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:

    There are pretty reliable sources indicating some sort of Model X and S refresh coming in July/August. Completely new interior and a smaller outside facelift with new taillights, headlights and some new wheel designs. Also active aero with new spoilers both front and back that will adapt.

     

    That's long over due.

    If they want to compete, they can't keep making the same car for so long. Hell even us got bored with Porsche's and everyone else's 4+3 cycles sometimes.

    Now that there is some funds available, they really need to address their Model S/X's short coming, the subpar interior. 

    The Model S exterior is sort of fine, they did changed the grill a while back. But still, everything else basically is from 2012 when they first launched the car. It isn't ugly by any means, and to me it is sort fo a timeless shape now.

    Model X was from 2015, 4 years now, not sure how to address the ugly duckling properly, interior is basically a Model S so that interior upgrade will do wonders. The exterior however is un-salvageable. It needs a new body for sure to get away from the minivan pretending tp be a crossover look. It needs to look properly like a CUV. 

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Regarding Autopilot... Think this video show some interesting details about how advanced the system already is today and the hardware already is out there in customer cars.

    Even if this version shown in the video still is an internal Tesla build not released for the customer cars yet, it will be in a few months.

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Well I have no opinion on the S, but obviously I do not think the X needs that big an update. I prefer a vertical integrated screen vs a horizontal sticking out one, and materials are good enough especially in light colors. The only thing I regret is not having ventilated seats. The don’t make them anymore... Exterior? Well it is controversial and different, it would be nice if they could make it look slimmer and more aggressive. But it is all relative, I like it much better than the current rears of the Macan and Cayenne which are at the bottom of the litter these days. The Mercedes, Audi and even BMW look better though, the X7 is better in real than in pics.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:

    There are pretty reliable sources indicating some sort of Model X and S refresh coming in July/August. Completely new interior and a smaller outside facelift with new taillights, headlights and some new wheel designs. Also active aero with new spoilers both front and back that will adapt.

    Will a software upgrade for existing cars be available? Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:

    Regarding Autopilot... Think this video show some interesting details about how advanced the system already is today and the hardware already is out there in customer cars.

    Even if this version shown in the video still is an internal Tesla build not released for the customer cars yet, it will be in a few months.

     

    The system is and will remain a fatal risk. They should stop calling preliminary driver aids „autopilot“. It is a trap for stupid consumers.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    MKSGR:
    lukestern:

    There are pretty reliable sources indicating some sort of Model X and S refresh coming in July/August. Completely new interior and a smaller outside facelift with new taillights, headlights and some new wheel designs. Also active aero with new spoilers both front and back that will adapt.

    Will a software upgrade for existing cars be available? Smiley

    Yes, 15 clicks on Tesla.com website and $20k Smiley but they will pick up and deliver and you might not even have to talk to anyone before delivery day.

    I have never done it with other cars but if in 18 months or so there is a new design and interior better than today, a 120kw+ battery and a few goodies on top (better efficiency again), I might switch as long as cost is not much more than $20k. In the long run, this will still be way cheaper than both Cayenne TT/TTS debacles and will keep it nice and fresh Smiley they are that good. Same as a phone or an appliance, shorter upgrade cycles. Resale values seems very good so far.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    MKSGR:
    lukestern:

    There are pretty reliable sources indicating some sort of Model X and S refresh coming in July/August. Completely new interior and a smaller outside facelift with new taillights, headlights and some new wheel designs. Also active aero with new spoilers both front and back that will adapt.

    Will a software upgrade for existing cars be available? Smiley

    Smiley that would be something


     
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