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    Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/Porsche-Concepts/234258/

    Autocar has learned that Porsche will fit the forthcoming facelifted versions of the 911 Turbo, 911 GT2 and 911 GT3 with its new-generation of direct injection petrol engines. It's part of Stuttgart's plan to improve the performance of its harder-edged 911s, while also making them more economical and reducing their CO2 emissions.

    In a move that spells an end to the company's legendary horizontally opposed six-cylinder M97 powerplant - the so-called Metzger engine - all three models will adopt the new A91 direct injection engine. This was first unveiled in the facelifted 911 Carrera that has just gone on sale in the UK.

    Both the 911 Turbo and 911 GT2 are will get the new 3.6-litre version of the horizontally-opposed, six-cylinder A91, with a 97.0mm bore and 81.5mm stroke (compared with the old engine's 100mm x 76.4mm). This ultra-modern direct injection unit also gets twin turbochargers and intercoolers.

    Official power figures are yet to be revealed, but Autocar sources suggest a 20bhp increase over the old cars, taking the four-wheel drive 911 Turbo up to 500bhp and the rear-wheel drive 911 GT2 to around 550bhp.

    The updated rear-wheel drive 911 GT3 will get a naturally-aspirated 3.8-litre version of the A91 engine with 102mm bore and 77.5mm stroke. It will receive a number of internal revisions over the engine used in the 911 Carrera S, including lightweight pistons. This should push power from today's 415bhp to nearer 430bhp.

    As well as increasing performance, the decision to offer the 911 Turbo, 911 GT2 and 911 GT3 with direct injection engines further streamlines production at Porsche's Zuffenhausen engine plant. At the moment, the old Metzger engine is built on a separate line to the A91.

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    Quote:
    LondonGuy said:
    http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/Porsche-Concepts/234258/

    Autocar has learned that Porsche will fit the forthcoming facelifted versions of the 911 Turbo, 911 GT2 and 911 GT3 with its new-generation of direct injection petrol engines. It's part of Stuttgart's plan to improve the performance of its harder-edged 911s, while also making them more economical and reducing their CO2 emissions.

    In a move that spells an end to the company's legendary horizontally opposed six-cylinder M97 powerplant - the so-called Metzger engine - all three models will adopt the new A91 direct injection engine. This was first unveiled in the facelifted 911 Carrera that has just gone on sale in the UK.

    Both the 911 Turbo and 911 GT2 are will get the new 3.6-litre version of the horizontally-opposed, six-cylinder A91, with a 97.0mm bore and 81.5mm stroke (compared with the old engine's 100mm x 76.4mm). This ultra-modern direct injection unit also gets twin turbochargers and intercoolers.

    Official power figures are yet to be revealed, but Autocar sources suggest a 20bhp increase over the old cars, taking the four-wheel drive 911 Turbo up to 500bhp and the rear-wheel drive 911 GT2 to around 550bhp.

    The updated rear-wheel drive 911 GT3 will get a naturally-aspirated 3.8-litre version of the A91 engine with 102mm bore and 77.5mm stroke. It will receive a number of internal revisions over the engine used in the 911 Carrera S, including lightweight pistons. This should push power from today's 415bhp to nearer 430bhp.

    As well as increasing performance, the decision to offer the 911 Turbo, 911 GT2 and 911 GT3 with direct injection engines further streamlines production at Porsche's Zuffenhausen engine plant. At the moment, the old Metzger engine is built on a separate line to the A91.



    I didn't know the Turbo, GT2 and GT3 used the M97 engine .

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    They will also lower prices by 20,000 Euros as the cost of the engine is now lower...

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    Quote:
    TEE1 said:
    They will also lower prices by 20,000 Euros as the cost of the engine is now lower...



    This is the best joke I've read all year !

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    And another instant 20K profit per car as the price will remain the same.

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    I think these 997tt's will become the next 993tt in terms of value, and perhaps even become the most highly sought after of all the GT1 block cars

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    I think these 997tt's will become the next 993tt in terms of value, and perhaps even become the most highly sought after of all the GT1 block cars



    I have the same suspicion. Unless, of course, the new engine really turns out to be as good as the GT1 block.

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    So adopting DFI added 20bhp to the power of the Carrera and 30bhp to the power output of the Carrera S, and yet it will only add 20bhp to the TT and the GT2? We all know PAG is very miserly at giving bhp increases but my intuition tells me that this might be at the lower end of the scale of possibilities.

    I am expecting at least 510bhp for the TT and 560bhp for the GT2 with a best case scenario of 520bhp for the TT and 570bhp for the GT2. But, hey, I'm only speculating...

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    Quote:
    TT Gasman said:
    And another instant 20K profit per car as the price will remain the same.



    Exactly my suspicion and prediction too ... unfortunately Why would PAG pass on cost savings from adopting a cheaper unit price engine when it produces more power, more torque with lower fuel consumption and lower CO2 emissions than the predecessor engines? They have no commercial reason to do so... and it would be somewhat fanciful of us to expect otherwise.

    In reality, I would expect PAG to perform a clever compromise whereby they can 'afford' to throw in some more standard spec equipment into the TT which will only rise very slightly in price BUT the way that they can 'afford' this extra generosity is because the engine will cost them much less SO, in PAG's eyes, everyone wins: they sell the car at a higher basic price with a much cheaper engine so they can make more profit diminished only slightly by the extra standard spec items that they have to throw in - while the customer gets more of everything at only a slightly higher price BUT without the GT1 derived engine that only diehard enthusiasts will even notice is now missing.

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    I recall this great post about the GT3 getting the new DI engine and the resulting interesting discussions on the current Metzger engine....

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=460934&Main=459861

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Quote:
    TT Gasman said:
    And another instant 20K profit per car as the price will remain the same.



    Exactly my prediction too ... unfortunately Why would PAG pass on cost savings from adopting a cheaper unit price engine when it produces more power, more torque with lower fuel consumption and lower emissions than the predecessor engines? They have no reason to do so... and it would be somewhat fanciful of us to expect otherwise.

    In reality, I would expect PAG to perform a clever compromise whereby they can 'afford' to throw in more standard spec equipment into the TT which will only rise very slightly in price BUT the way they 'afford' this extra generosity is because the engine will cost them less SO in PAG's eyes, everyone wins: they sell the car at a higher price with a cheaper engine so they make more profit diminished only somewhat by the extra standard spec items they have to throw in while the customer gets more of everything at only a slightly higher price BUT without th4 Metzger engine that only diehard enthusiasts will even care is now missing.



    OR, they will spend the money on buying more of VW!

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    BTW, I have a great way of increasing fuel economy in my Turbo... drive it like an old lady everywhere you go and you will get 35+ MPG!

    Kidding aside...

    The current ECU mappings could also be tweaked to give better economy from adjustment of the Turbos etc. And it's not like the Metzger engine has reached it's power limits either.

    So this change in engines is for Porsche's benefit only and certainly not the consumers.

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    Not quite IMO - customers will benefit from slightly better fuel economy and slightly better peformance with perhaps a shorter engine lifespan.

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    If they want to get better performance - make the car lighter and fit some Bilstein's as standard!

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    I also think another motivating factor is PDK. I think the more PAG can standardise the basic engine design across the range, the cheaper it will be for them to provide PDK across the range too (once they can get PDK to handle the extra power and torque of the turbo-charged engines)...

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    They already can, a 700Nm PDK box is ready to go.

    700Nm is very low though in aftermarket tuning terms.

    .......................

    As many have said, if you don't ever plan on going aftermarket and trade in your car every 2 years when the warranty runs out (UK) then this change is probably a very good thing.

    If you want a 'keeper' or decide to make your Turbo/GT2 better than as provided from factory then you want to get a Turbo/GT2 right now before the last of the GT1 engines disappear.

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    Quote:
    Alex_997TurboRSC said:
    They already can, a 700Nm PDK box is ready to go.

    700Nm is very low though in aftermarket tuning terms.


    Yes, but the DFI motors and Metzger motors have a different mating between engine and gearbox. This new scheme will allow just one type of motor and one type of PDK gearbox (just one version of interface with engine).

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    Actually they will likely INCREASE the price touting its technological advance plus other anticipated cost/market factors.

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Actually they will likely INCREASE the price touting its technological advance plus other anticipated cost/market factors.


    You can bank on that!

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    All this talk makes me sick. I'm contemplating an '09 or '10 TT, and am just underwhelmed that nothing in the pipeline says 'oh shiz, I've GOT to have that!'.....

    The current variation is ok, don't get me wrong, but it does not WOW me like the C4S Cab in '04 did over the '99 C2 Cab I had. Yes, TT power is awesome, and I've driven it, but overall, I'm in desperate need of wow factor to part with 160 large for this car, and so far, with the back and forth on this engine issue, the only possible move would be to get an '09 with current GT1 block, hope for the best, and hang on for a few years until next variant arrives. But I just do not love this car that much, nor can I see the value like other models. If PAG dropped the price b/c of the DI changed engine ('10), maybe that would entice more customers. But then you are giving up the known quantity (GT1) block for something. Very frustrating.

    Or maybe I'll just forget about it, continue driving the cab, and just put it out of my mind. Yes, I'm off my meds....doctor, can you help me?



    Nothing they are showing 'grabs' me.

    Bummed, and waiting for real news.

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    Quote:
    Eric (Plug Guy) said:
    All this talk makes me sick. I'm contemplating an '09 or '10 TT, and am just underwhelmed that nothing in the pipeline says 'oh shiz, I've GOT to have that!'.....

    The current variation is ok, don't get me wrong, but it does not WOW me like the C4S Cab in '04 did over the '99 C2 Cab I had. Yes, TT power is awesome, and I've driven it, but overall, I'm in desperate need of wow factor to part with 160 large for this car, and so far, with the back and forth on this engine issue, the only possible move would be to get an '09 with current GT1 block, hope for the best, and hang on for a few years until next variant arrives. But I just do not love this car that much, nor can I see the value like other models. If PAG dropped the price b/c of the DI changed engine ('10), maybe that would entice more customers. But then you are giving up the known quantity (GT1) block for something. Very frustrating.

    Or maybe I'll just forget about it, continue driving the cab, and just put it out of my mind. Yes, I'm off my meds....doctor, can you help me?



    Nothing they are showing 'grabs' me.

    Bummed, and waiting for real news.



    Eric,

    I'll echo what has been said here before. If you plan to mod., buy the GT1 block version now then tune. If you don't plan to mod., then the PA1 block will be fine in stock form-at least for the length of the warranty-which will be fine if you plan to trade for every new generation.

    But the car will never WOW anyone anymore since it's so niche-marketed, it will always be just good enough to attract a core of Porsche buyers plus Bimmer and MB flirters-the enthusiast be damned. That's just the way it is with the current management-I'm not saying this is good or bad, it's just the way it is.

    Al

    Re: Autocar on new Direct Injection engines

    Quote:
    Eric (Plug Guy) said:
    All this talk makes me sick. I'm contemplating an '09 or '10 TT, and am just underwhelmed that nothing in the pipeline says 'oh shiz, I've GOT to have that!'.....

    The current variation is ok, don't get me wrong, but it does not WOW me like the C4S Cab in '04 did over the '99 C2 Cab I had. Yes, TT power is awesome, and I've driven it, but overall, I'm in desperate need of wow factor to part with 160 large for this car, and so far, with the back and forth on this engine issue, the only possible move would be to get an '09 with current GT1 block, hope for the best, and hang on for a few years until next variant arrives. But I just do not love this car that much, nor can I see the value like other models. If PAG dropped the price b/c of the DI changed engine ('10), maybe that would entice more customers. But then you are giving up the known quantity (GT1) block for something. Very frustrating.

    Or maybe I'll just forget about it, continue driving the cab, and just put it out of my mind. Yes, I'm off my meds....doctor, can you help me?



    Nothing they are showing 'grabs' me.

    Bummed, and waiting for real news.



    My feelings echo yours. With that said, I may just go for a 997.2 C2S and keep the MSRP below $100k. I'll drive it until the second or third year of the next generation then trade. We'll see what the next NA and TT models bring. Those are my thoughts for now. Give me 5 minutes and I'll change my mind again .

     
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