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    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Dario:
    sorry rc, maybe correct for the 12C but completly incorrect for the f12 berlinetta.
    What was the words for the autocar Journalist from the comparo f12 vs 991 Turbo s vs sls.
     
    The f12 was a small dot and desapired.
    Standing Kilometer mph  170mph for berlinetta vs 161 for Turbos or almost 16kmh difference in Speed.
     
    In the Speed range 250-300 kmh a 991 Turbo s and McLaren needs about 15 secs, where the f12 is around 9 secs. That is huge, and shows not just the extra power but also that proper gearing is very important as well, no silly overdrive in the f12

    I'm not sure we watched the same video? Smiley

    I am pretty confident that if Porsche would allow the Turbo S the full 1.2 bar boost pressure over the whole speed range (at full acceleration), the Turbo S would keep up with the F12 or at least fall back very very slowly only. From 0-160 kph, there aren't currently many cars to be a challenge for the Turbo S, even the F12 is not one of them but in the speed range 160 to 240 kph, the boost pressure just isn't high enough, so the Turbo S falls back. I usually get 0.8 to 1.0 bar in this speed range (sometimes 1.1 bar). From 250 kph on, I see full 1.2 bar up to almost top speed, which may be explained by issues with PDK in the lower speed range. Otherwise I wouldn't really know why Porsche would limit the boost pressure. Unless they would need a higher fuel pressure in that speed range (for whatever reason) and somehow, this isn't possible. Still suspecting the PDK though.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    Dario:
    sorry rc, maybe correct for the 12C but completly incorrect for the f12 berlinetta.
    What was the words for the autocar Journalist from the comparo f12 vs 991 Turbo s vs sls.
     
    The f12 was a small dot and desapired.
    Standing Kilometer mph  170mph for berlinetta vs 161 for Turbos or almost 16kmh difference in Speed.
     
    In the Speed range 250-300 kmh a 991 Turbo s and McLaren needs about 15 secs, where the f12 is around 9 secs. That is huge, and shows not just the extra power but also that proper gearing is very important as well, no silly overdrive in the f12

    I'm not sure we watched the same video? Smiley

    I am pretty confident that if Porsche would allow the Turbo S the full 1.2 bar boost pressure over the whole speed range (at full acceleration), the Turbo S would keep up with the F12 or at least fall back very very slowly only. From 0-160 kph, there aren't currently many cars to be a challenge for the Turbo S, even the F12 is not one of them but in the speed range 160 to 240 kph, the boost pressure just isn't high enough, so the Turbo S falls back. I usually get 0.8 to 1.0 bar in this speed range (sometimes 1.1 bar). From 250 kph on, I see full 1.2 bar up to almost top speed, which may be explained by issues with PDK in the lower speed range. Otherwise I wouldn't really know why Porsche would limit the boost pressure. Unless they would need a higher fuel pressure in that speed range (for whatever reason) and somehow, this isn't possible. Still suspecting the PDK though.

    we have definitely reached the moment of diminishing returns: it is absolutely of no importance whether car x accelerates from 200-300 km/h in y seconds faster than car z. all this is internet chitti-chatti and really nothing else. cars in a 200K euro + zone have to differentiate themselves differently, by styling, exclusivity (just use your own personal definition of what it is) and tactility. nobody needs a supercar, so the main thing is how the car makes you feel, owning it and driving it. i feel that the number crunching discussion hides the essential issues.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    andyFE:
    RC:
    Dario:
    sorry rc, maybe correct for the 12C but completly incorrect for the f12 berlinetta.
    What was the words for the autocar Journalist from the comparo f12 vs 991 Turbo s vs sls.
     
    The f12 was a small dot and desapired.
    Standing Kilometer mph  170mph for berlinetta vs 161 for Turbos or almost 16kmh difference in Speed.
     
    In the Speed range 250-300 kmh a 991 Turbo s and McLaren needs about 15 secs, where the f12 is around 9 secs. That is huge, and shows not just the extra power but also that proper gearing is very important as well, no silly overdrive in the f12

    I'm not sure we watched the same video? Smiley

    I am pretty confident that if Porsche would allow the Turbo S the full 1.2 bar boost pressure over the whole speed range (at full acceleration), the Turbo S would keep up with the F12 or at least fall back very very slowly only. From 0-160 kph, there aren't currently many cars to be a challenge for the Turbo S, even the F12 is not one of them but in the speed range 160 to 240 kph, the boost pressure just isn't high enough, so the Turbo S falls back. I usually get 0.8 to 1.0 bar in this speed range (sometimes 1.1 bar). From 250 kph on, I see full 1.2 bar up to almost top speed, which may be explained by issues with PDK in the lower speed range. Otherwise I wouldn't really know why Porsche would limit the boost pressure. Unless they would need a higher fuel pressure in that speed range (for whatever reason) and somehow, this isn't possible. Still suspecting the PDK though.

    we have definitely reached the moment of diminishing returns: it is absolutely of no importance whether car x accelerates from 200-300 km/h in y seconds faster than car z. all this is internet chitti-chatti and really nothing else. cars in a 200K euro + zone have to differentiate themselves differently, by styling, exclusivity (just use your own personal definition of what it is) and tactility. nobody needs a supercar, so the main thing is how the car makes you feel, owning it and driving it. i feel that the number crunching discussion hides the essential issues.

    Smiley

    what he said


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    You forget the Autobahn factor here... 

    Otherwise, the 991 Turbo S is just the best daily driver and all weather super sportscar worldwide. kiss

    Three issues Porsche should correct:

    1. Exhaust/engine sound below 3000 rpm (make no mistake, the sound is much better than on previous turbo models, especially above 3000 rpm and even more above 5000 rpm).

    2. Power: 600 hp would have been perfect (by 600 hp I mean real life 40 hp more...compared to current car).

    3. Better interior, the 918 interior could be an indication where the voyage could go to...

    Well, they need something for the facelift, don't they? 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    IMO the styling evolution between 997 and 991(Carrera and Turbo) should have been more modern and striking, whilst keeping the 911 physiognomy. The 991 doesn't look very fresh compared to the previous model introduced 10  years ago,in spite of its advances in engineering.

    OTOH, Ferrari (although I don't like to quote them as an example) have managed to modernize very successfully their mid-engined models from Modena to 430 and now 458, without diverting from the same overall character.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:

    You forget the Autobahn factor here... 

    Otherwise, the 991 Turbo S is just the best daily driver and all weather super sportscar worldwide. kiss

    Three issues Porsche should correct:

    1. Exhaust/engine sound below 3000 rpm (make no mistake, the sound is much better than on previous turbo models, especially above 3000 rpm and even more above 5000 rpm).

    2. Power: 600 hp would have been perfect (by 600 hp I mean real life 40 hp more...compared to current car).

    3. Better interior, the 918 interior could be an indication where the voyage could go to...

    Well, they need something for the facelift, don't they? 

    i do not get your 'best everyday supercar' argument as far as the 991 turbo S is concerned. why is that so? because it has 4WD? lamborghini's are also 4WD and i heave heard of people who drive RWD cars everyday, also in winter ::))

    instead of putting another 40HP into an already insanely fast car porsche should rather work on the desirability of the turbo S, which means more interesting exterior and exterior design, better sound (not just under 3K rpm) and they should shed weight from it, for tactility's sake.  also, give the engine higher max revs would be nice (mclaren did it with their turbo engine, why is the turbo S engine limited to 7200 rpm?).


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    The argument is based on past experiences and the fact that it really is the best everyday super car.

    1. It is a fantastic all-weather car (with the appropriate tires in winter time), not only on snow but also on wet surfaces. Furthermore, it is also a very safe car under these conditions. This is important for a daily driver.

    2. It isn't flashy (very important in some regions)

    3. There is a dealership close by (within a 50-100 km range) in many regions, especially in Europe

    4. It is very reliable

    5. Fuel consumption is somewhere between 10 to 26 liters / 100 km, depending on your driving style

    6. Spare parts are widely available and available fast

    7. Car is wickedly fast and easy to control

    So your points of a "more interesting exterior and interior design" (I would maybe agree on the interior design) but also higher revs (what for? Have you driven the new Turbo S?) don't make sense.

    Actually, shedding weight also doesn't make much sense (the Turbo S feels quite tactile and much lighter than it actually is) and the better exhaust sound under 3000 rpm is my personal wish but I know from a couple of Turbo S customers that they prefer a more muted exhaust on their daily driver. Maybe if I would drive this car on a daily basis, right now it is a weekend toy, I would think the same.

    Bottom line is: There is nothing out there on the market which comes even close to the benefits of a 991 Turbo S, like it or not. You compare it to a Lamborghini, others compare it to Ferrari or McLaren but truth is, I would never get a Lamborghini or Ferrari or McLaren, simply because it is not possible for various reasons. I'm not the only one thinking the same, especially in Europe but apparently also in some US regions, the Porsche is the less attention attracting car with a better "reputation". 

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I still think that TTS should be lighter for various reasons. They just "trick" you with AWS that car is light, but it is not. Also, your point about noise is very good. Maybe they will include button in face-lift model so you can completely mute the exhaust, or your can open it completely when you want to get wild smiley


    --

    My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    As far as weight is concerned, it seems that there is a trend for making cars heavier (to accommodate equipment and safety features) , but in spite of the weight making them handle in a nimble way through electric steering, rear steering etc. and at the same time consuming less through new technologies.

    The GT-R made the heavy sportscar respectable. Porsche have followed with the 991 Turbo and now the 918 is the culmination of this trend. According to the Autocar review the 918 Spyder handles like a 1300kg car and consumes like a supermini, in spite of its considerable mass.

    I suspect that given today's requirements it would have been impossible or prohibitively expensive for cars to shed significant amount of weight. Even  the new models of the traditionally lightweight Lotus, have put on weight.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Milanno:

    I still think that TTS should be lighter for various reasons. They just "trick" you with AWS that car is light, but it is not. Also, your point about noise is very good. Maybe they will include button in face-lift model so you can completely mute the exhaust, or your can open it completely when you want to get wild smiley

    Actually you can already mute it now (just don't press the Sport or Sport Plus button). Also, Porsche has sound emissions issues, especially with turbo charged engines and they aren't easy to overcome for various (legal) reasons. On the other hand, I ask myself how AMG gets such a wonderful sound out of their V8 turbo charged engines. Food for thought maybe.

    As to the lighter weight: It wouldn't really benefit the 991 Turbo S but increase cost a lot. Like you said, the AWS does the trick, so why spend more money for less weight if more power is actually cheaper? Smiley

    In the future, when weight reducing methods and materials will be substantially cheaper (there is already a trend visible here, regarding composite materials and their production), weight will play a more substantial role. They cannot raise power figures forever, especially in times where the CO2 output will be limited more and more and stricter emissions laws will make it very difficult for manufacturers to build high power engines. I wouldn't be surprised to see only a mild 10-20 hp power increase from the 991 Turbo S facelift to the next gen 992 Turbo S but a more substantial (50-80 kg) weight reduction. It would make sense. Unfortunately I rather think that they will use some sort of hybrid technology instead to keep CO2 levels low (on paper Smiley) and the weight reductions will only be used when there is no other way. Unless of course the hybrid technology would be more expensive than weight reductions. Cost is everything I'm afraid and of course the profit margins. Smiley

    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I agree about AMG, they are making incredible job with turbocharged engines when it comes to sound. Since AMG is delivering engines to Pagani,  I am wondering what happened with Huayra. Pagani was recognizable by its screaming exhaust sound, and they left that tradition with Huayra (not good move in my eyes). And I am sure they could make some cool sounding with AMG`s help - for example, G63 AMG sounds frightening in person, seriously angry

    Back on topic  Like I sad I was shocked with new price for 991 TTS, and I am sure that insane increase was inspired by profit & not by R&D costs, since most (crucial) gadgets are installed on (cheap) GT3. Turbines could be expensive indeed broken heart Also I dont expect something spectacular from 991 TTS facelift - 20hp more & more interior (pricey) options. For 992 TTS, Porsche could take two directions: 1. Make it lighter with CF; 2. Make it more powerful & greener with some sort of hybrid/KERS.

    @RC You edited your post in meantime, so right now we posted exact same thoughts smileysmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Porsche is known for having one of the fattest margins on their cars (in relation to production numbers) - especially in the upper range & of course with the options. however, I would 100% agree that the TTS is probably the best all weather weapon - but for 200k EUR they could have added something special for the S - like carbon doors , hood , roof etc, and the option to reduce further weight deleting the backseats-option for example etc etc or adding Titanium exhaust like on a GT2 for those eager to have max performance only. I am sure many would be happy to add another 20k for less. I also think they have missed a opportunity to create a even higher demand if their "Steps" from previous would have been a bit more radical than the usual "safe bet"


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    BjoernB:

    Porsche is known for having one of the fattest margins on their cars (in relation to production numbers) - especially in the upper range & of course with the options. however, I would 100% agree that the TTS is probably the best all weather weapon - but for 200k EUR they could have added something special for the S - like carbon doors , hood , roof etc, and the option to reduce further weight deleting the backseats-option for example etc etc or adding Titanium exhaust like on a GT2 for those eager to have max performance only. I am sure many would be happy to add another 20k for less. I also think they have missed a opportunity to create a even higher demand if their "Steps" from previous would have been a bit more radical than the usual "safe bet"

    The problem is and was cost. 

    I cannot go into details (yes, I know them Smiley) but let's just say that they had a certain development budget and a certain profit margin requirement. With the AWS for example, cost kind of got out of hand (wider body required, actually this wasn't the plan) and at some point, they wanted to offer AWS as an option, which would have complicated the setup of the car substantially. In the end, AWS was in, so were other goodies and unfortunately a wider body was required plus some other stuff but the profit margin requirement stayed the same. So the only solution to it was to raise the price tag to keep the required profit margin in the green.

    Yes, it may sound fishy but it isn't. This is basically (it was actually a bit more complicated) what happened.

    Of course they could have lowered the profit margin requirement or they could have added some goodies (like more power, lower weight or even a slightly new interior based on the 918 interior) but development is one thing, setting the development team a budget limit and a certain goal, another one. 

    I agree, I think that Porsche made a mistake (and I've told them even before I had my Turbo S) but apparently I am different than other customers, according to the somehow official response. Oh well... Smiley
    This is actually also one of the reasons I leased the car, I was seriously thinking about buying one. I may actually get the facelift too (also through a lease) but the 992 could be the first Turbo S I buy. If I can afford it and if they don't raise the price tag to a level beyond good and evil. Smiley Little hint: New engine generation.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:

    The argument is based on past experiences and the fact that it really is the best everyday super car.

    1. It is a fantastic all-weather car (with the appropriate tires in winter time), not only on snow but also on wet surfaces. Furthermore, it is also a very safe car under these conditions. This is important for a daily driver.

    2. It isn't flashy (very important in some regions)

    3. There is a dealership close by (within a 50-100 km range) in many regions, especially in Europe

    4. It is very reliable

    5. Fuel consumption is somewhere between 10 to 26 liters / 100 km, depending on your driving style

    6. Spare parts are widely available and available fast

    7. Car is wickedly fast and easy to control

    So your points of a "more interesting exterior and interior design" (I would maybe agree on the interior design) but also higher revs (what for? Have you driven the new Turbo S?) don't make sense.

    Actually, shedding weight also doesn't make much sense (the Turbo S feels quite tactile and much lighter than it actually is) and the better exhaust sound under 3000 rpm is my personal wish but I know from a couple of Turbo S customers that they prefer a more muted exhaust on their daily driver. Maybe if I would drive this car on a daily basis, right now it is a weekend toy, I would think the same.

    Bottom line is: There is nothing out there on the market which comes even close to the benefits of a 991 Turbo S, like it or not. You compare it to a Lamborghini, others compare it to Ferrari or McLaren but truth is, I would never get a Lamborghini or Ferrari or McLaren, simply because it is not possible for various reasons. I'm not the only one thinking the same, especially in Europe but apparently also in some US regions, the Porsche is the less attention attracting car with a better "reputation". 

     

    what you describe is a very fast and efficient car but certainly not a super-car. just to answer your question i have driven the turbo S for about 600 miles and and i do agree with you in one point: it is a very nice move-me-from-A-to-B-device, as fast as possible. unfortunately with all the over-engineering porsche forgot to put emotions into the blueprint of the car. at this point i am going to drop the argument since you make no effort to understand anyway. i really doubt that you have ever driven a real super-car because if you had you would not ask questions like 'why do you want higher revs', 'why should it shed weight', 'what is wrong with the exterior design', 'why do you want a different sound'. the answer to these questions is simple: those are precisely the points which characterize a desirable super-car.

    anyway, enjoy the turbo S in good health.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    andyFE:
     i really doubt that you have ever driven a real super-car because if you had you would not ask questions like 'why do you want higher revs', 'why should it shed weight', 'what is wrong with the exterior design', 'why do you want a different sound'. the answer to these questions is simple: those are precisely the points which characterize a desirable super-car.

    .

    Your view is quite that of a test driver's perspective - the perspective on these cars changes a lot if you drive them over long periods of time and many miles. The seemingly "boring" can turn into the best overall package. And the high-reving, extraordinarily designed "super car" can develop into a garage queen which cannot satisfy your preference for precision and perfection...

    It does make a difference if you test a car or if you own it Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    MKSGR:
    andyFE:
     i really doubt that you have ever driven a real super-car because if you had you would not ask questions like 'why do you want higher revs', 'why should it shed weight', 'what is wrong with the exterior design', 'why do you want a different sound'. the answer to these questions is simple: those are precisely the points which characterize a desirable super-car.

    .

    Your view is quite that of a test driver's perspective - the perspective on these cars changes a lot if you drive them over long periods of time and many miles. The seemingly "boring" can turn into the best overall package. And the high-reving, extraordinarily designed "super car" can develop into a garage queen which cannot satisfy your preference for precision and perfection...

    It does make a difference if you test a car or if you own it Smiley

    Very well said, Markus. I would also like andyFE to define the word "desirable". I would never desire a car which I cannot actually use because of various reasons, incl. my social environment. 

    I have driven many "super sportscars" and so far, I like the Aventador most (in my theoretical price range). However, driving an Aventador in my social environment would be social suicide and it would also "hurt" my kids in many possible ways. Now just let a customer of mine see me in this car somewhere in the city and I would be done. A Porsche is much less "offensive".  I also seriously considered the F12 but my wife had some pretty good arguments against it. Now I am happy I listened to her. Same goes to the 12C, which is avery nice car but surprisingly less involving than the Turbo S actually.

    Where were we? Right: We were talking about the definition of the word "desirable". Well, I desire a super sportscar I can use without having to worry too much. The 991 Turbo S is just perfect for meSmiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    MKSGR:
    andyFE:
     i really doubt that you have ever driven a real super-car because if you had you would not ask questions like 'why do you want higher revs', 'why should it shed weight', 'what is wrong with the exterior design', 'why do you want a different sound'. the answer to these questions is simple: those are precisely the points which characterize a desirable super-car.

    .

    Your view is quite that of a test driver's perspective - the perspective on these cars changes a lot if you drive them over long periods of time and many miles. The seemingly "boring" can turn into the best overall package. And the high-reving, extraordinarily designed "super car" can develop into a garage queen which cannot satisfy your preference for precision and perfection...

    It does make a difference if you test a car or if you own it Smiley

    the turbo S could grow on me as a useful vehicle and as a daily driver if i needed one (which i don't) but not as a super car. there, either it is love at first sight or nothing at all. and as you know, love can be quite forgiving. 

    back to the turbo S: everyone is certainly entitled to have her/his opinion but i just can't stand the prevailing forum line 'the 991 turbo S is god's present to the super-car enthusiast.....because it just is'. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    andyFE:
    but i just can't stand the prevailing forum line 'the 991 turbo S is god's present to the super-car enthusiast.....because it just is'. 

    That's your problem, not mine. We probably don't like the same music either. Smiley So what?! Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    MKSGR:
    andyFE:
     i really doubt that you have ever driven a real super-car because if you had you would not ask questions like 'why do you want higher revs', 'why should it shed weight', 'what is wrong with the exterior design', 'why do you want a different sound'. the answer to these questions is simple: those are precisely the points which characterize a desirable super-car.

    .

    Your view is quite that of a test driver's perspective - the perspective on these cars changes a lot if you drive them over long periods of time and many miles. The seemingly "boring" can turn into the best overall package. And the high-reving, extraordinarily designed "super car" can develop into a garage queen which cannot satisfy your preference for precision and perfection...

    It does make a difference if you test a car or if you own it Smiley

    Very well said, Markus. I would also like andyFE to define the word "desirable". I would never desire a car which I cannot actually use because of various reasons, incl. my social environment. 

    I have driven many "super sportscars" and so far, I like the Aventador most (in my theoretical price range). However, driving an Aventador in my social environment would be social suicide and it would also "hurt" my kids in many possible ways. Now just let a customer of mine see me in this car somewhere in the city and I would be done. A Porsche is much less "offensive".  I also seriously considered the F12 but my wife had some pretty good arguments against it. Now I am happy I listened to her. Same goes to the 12C, which is avery nice car but surprisingly less involving than the Turbo S actually.

    Where were we? Right: We were talking about the definition of the word "desirable". Well, I desire a super sportscar I can use without having to worry too much. The 991 Turbo S is just perfect for meSmiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    your last sentence says it all. you desire a super car you don't need to worry about much. i define 'desirable' as stirring emotions. this is why you like the turbo S and why i prefer (other) super cars. to each his own.

    i hope that porsche rectifies all these issues with the 960.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Seems like tuning companies already put their hands on 991TTS. EDO Competition has a 600HP tuning  package and they participate on the 2013 Nardo High Performance Event with this car, anyone know the results? 

    http://www.edo-competition.com/news/nardo-2013/

    J.Seven


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Clear rear lens on the edo...and they look v nice! Still not changing my order indecision


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    2013 BMW 750 xDrive MSport & 2012 x5 - TurboS Cab on Order Mar14. Range Rover V8 on order June14


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    J.Seven:

    Seems like tuning companies already put their hands on 991TTS. EDO Competition has a 600HP tuning  package and they participate on the 2013 Nardo High Performance Event with this car, anyone know the results? 

    http://www.edo-competition.com/news/nardo-2013/

    J.Seven

    AUTOBILD SportsCars...next issue maybe (mid december).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    andyFE:
    but i just can't stand the prevailing forum line 'the 991 turbo S is god's present to the super-car enthusiast.....because it just is'. 

    That's your problem, not mine. We probably don't like the same music either. Smiley So what?! Smiley

    maybe we like the same beer::::))))Smiley 4


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    MKSGR:
    andyFE:
     i really doubt that you have ever driven a real super-car because if you had you would not ask questions like 'why do you want higher revs', 'why should it shed weight', 'what is wrong with the exterior design', 'why do you want a different sound'. the answer to these questions is simple: those are precisely the points which characterize a desirable super-car.

    .

    Your view is quite that of a test driver's perspective - the perspective on these cars changes a lot if you drive them over long periods of time and many miles. The seemingly "boring" can turn into the best overall package. And the high-reving, extraordinarily designed "super car" can develop into a garage queen which cannot satisfy your preference for precision and perfection...

    It does make a difference if you test a car or if you own it Smiley

    Very well said, Markus. I would also like andyFE to define the word "desirable". I would never desire a car which I cannot actually use because of various reasons, incl. my social environment. 

    I have driven many "super sportscars" and so far, I like the Aventador most (in my theoretical price range). However, driving an Aventador in my social environment would be social suicide and it would also "hurt" my kids in many possible ways. Now just let a customer of mine see me in this car somewhere in the city and I would be done. A Porsche is much less "offensive".  I also seriously considered the F12 but my wife had some pretty good arguments against it. Now I am happy I listened to her. Same goes to the 12C, which is avery nice car but surprisingly less involving than the Turbo S actually.

    Where were we? Right: We were talking about the definition of the word "desirable". Well, I desire a super sportscar I can use without having to worry too much. The 991 Turbo S is just perfect for meSmiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    To be sincere, Porsche need to wake up Smiley a 9yr old boy will not see a 991TTS and get excited whereas if the same boy sees a 458 the response will be different. The game has changed and Porsche should stop resting on past laurels. Unfortunately in the UK the layman cannot differentiate between a 997 and 991, that has affected sales of the 991 drastically. I have a strong feeling that the we will see the 960 within 18-24 months which is the reason of the release of 991tt and 991tts simultaneosly


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Italo:

    To be sincere, Porsche need to wake up Smiley a 9yr old boy will not see a 991TTS and get excited whereas if the same boy sees a 458 the response will be different. The game has changed and Porsche should stop resting on past laurels. Unfortunately in the UK the layman cannot differentiate between a 997 and 991, that has affected sales of the 991 drastically. I have a strong feeling that the we will see the 960 within 18-24 months which is the reason of the release of 991tt and 991tts simultaneosly

    That is exactly why I would rather buy a 991 TTS instead if a 458 or whatever posterqueen. The Ferrari is nice on a poster, the 991 is nice to drive in real life. The 911 Turbo was, is and will never be a supercar. It's not intended to be one either. It's the top of the line 911, which is a sportscar, not a supercar.

    i like supercars a lot... To look at, to hear the loud exhaust notes and to drive it once in a while. I would never like to own one, unless I have too much money. A 911 and especially the Turbo is another kind if car, it comes close to supercar performance, but it doesn't scream "look at me!" And it is a friendly car to live with on a daily base (the modern 911 Turbos). That's the appeal of the current 911 Turbo and Porsche did an exellent job IMO.


    --

    Suzy

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    SuzyF:
    Italo:

    To be sincere, Porsche need to wake up Smiley a 9yr old boy will not see a 991TTS and get excited whereas if the same boy sees a 458 the response will be different. The game has changed and Porsche should stop resting on past laurels. Unfortunately in the UK the layman cannot differentiate between a 997 and 991, that has affected sales of the 991 drastically. I have a strong feeling that the we will see the 960 within 18-24 months which is the reason of the release of 991tt and 991tts simultaneosly

    That is exactly why I would rather buy a 991 TTS instead if a 458 or whatever posterqueen. The Ferrari is nice on a poster, the 991 is nice to drive in real life. The 911 Turbo was, is and will never be a supercar. It's not intended to be one either. It's the top of the line 911, which is a sportscar, not a supercar.

    i like supercars a lot... To look at, to hear the loud exhaust notes and to drive it once in a while. I would never like to own one, unless I have too much money. A 911 and especially the Turbo is another kind if car, it comes close to supercar performance, but it doesn't scream "look at me!" And it is a friendly car to live with on a daily base (the modern 911 Turbos). That's the appeal of the current 911 Turbo and Porsche did an exellent job IMO.


    --

    Suzy

     

    suzy, i recommend some more time in a 458 before you can pass informed judgement. i seem to recall that you mentioned having driven one but after your last posting it seems you never did. the 458 is a poster queen? the 458 is undisputedly one of the top driver's cars around. you may or may not like the design but drivetrain and handling are superb. some people think initially that the steering is too light but it takes a little while to realize that it supports the very nature of the car in an excellent way. the 458 turns in like no 911 can dream about - except maybe the GT3 (i have not had enough seat time yet to judge). other than occasional complaints about steering feel i know of no real shortcomings, except maybe that all 458's should have the engine of the 458S:::))))


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    It's not about how the car drives. I have no real complaints about how the car drives (no car is perfect), but it's just how I think about the car. Not just the 458 BTW, that was just an example.... McLaren, Pagani, Lamborghini, etc... All very nice to look at (except the Mclaren), but for me, not cars that I would like to own. Same goes for a Porsche 918. Nice to look at, but even if I had the money I wouldn't buy one. 

    This may sound strange, but if someone said to me "you may choose one of these cars but you must drive it for a year" and those cars were a Ferrari F12 and a Porsche 911 C4S I would without a doubt choose the C4S. I would even pick a Boxster S over a Porsche 918.

    It's just not my cup of tea to drive a car that is so flashy... This doesn't mean I don't like the cars.


    --

    Suzy

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I am with Suzy :)

    Porsche's success lies in the understated look. It gives privacy to the owner/driver. Hell even the outrageous 918 is more understated than the P1 or the LaFerrari. Porsche was never about shouting 'Look at me!!' It's about giving driving pleasure to the driver first, they design a car for the driver to drive, not for others to look at from the outside.

    Between my 12C and the Turbo S, I drives the Turbo S more. Not because the 12C is inferior to drive, but because I can go about my business without attracting unwanted attention. When I drives the 12C, I plan ahead so that  attention from the car won't be a problem. 

     


    --

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Whoopsy:

    I am with Suzy :)

    Porsche's success lies in the understated look. It gives privacy to the owner/driver. Hell even the outrageous 918 is more understated than the P1 or the LaFerrari. Porsche was never about shouting 'Look at me!!' It's about giving driving pleasure to the driver first, they design a car for the driver to drive, not for others to look at from the outside.

    Between my 12C and the Turbo S, I drives the Turbo S more. Not because the 12C is inferior to drive, but because I can go about my business without attracting unwanted attention. When I drives the 12C, I plan ahead so that  attention from the car won't be a problem. 

     

    Exactly! :)

    Maybe I have to add that for me personally, I always have the feeling that I attract more attention because I'm a woman in a sportscar and I don't like that attention. The 918 is indeed more below the radar than its opponents from the UK  and Italy, but for me, even that is too flashy. (Or at least, I wouldn't feel comfortable when driving such a car).


    --

    Suzy

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Come on Suzi. You know you will want the optional top-of- the boot sport exhaust on your next Boxter. 


     
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