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    Engineering data shows Porsche restricts Cayman S...

    performance in favor of 911 Carrera. The following data (from Porsche Product information on the Cayman S) shows that a significant gearing advantage is given to the 911 Carrera, so that it can maintain it's acceleration time advantage over the Cayman S.

    Although both the Cayman S and the 911 Carrera have the same standard rear tire size (265 40 18), final drive ratio (3.88), and maximum engine speed (7300 rpm), the 911 Carrera has shorter gear ratios in all gears; in the critical 1st and 2nd gear (critical to 0-60 times) the advantage is nearly 20%, meaning engine torque transfered to the pavement for acceleration is being multiplied by nearly 20% more in the 911 Carrera, vs. the Cayman S. I'd venture to say that a Cayman S with a 911 Carrera transaxle would make quite a formidable ride.

    Gear/Cayman S/Cayman S total/911 Carrera/911 Carrera total/% of Cayman S
    1/ 3.31/ 12.84/ 3.91/ 15.17/ -18.1
    2/ 1.95/ 7.57/ 2.32/ 9.00/ -19.0
    3/ 1.41/ 5.47/ 1.61/ 6.25/ -14.2
    4/ 1.13/ 4.38/ 1.28/ 4.97/ -13.3
    5/ 0.97/ 3.76/ 1.08/ 4.19/ -11.3
    6/ 0.82/ 3.18/ 0.88/ 3.41/ -7.3
    Final Drive/ 3.88/ 3.88

    Sorry, I can't get the table to format properly

    The real hero in the story is the Boxster S, which is saddled with even taller overall ratios than the Cayman S in all gears.

    Re: Engineering data shows Porsche restricts Cayman S...

    You shouldn't forget that the Cayman S engine is different from the Boxster S engine, even if both are actually based on the same M96 engine base design.
    But up to a certain point, you have a valid argument.
    Of course a Cayman with 355 HP would be superior to the 997 Carrera S, especially if Porsche manages to install a limited slip differential and a slightly sportier suspension (not PASM) on the Cayman. But that's not the point. Porsche could build a lightweight CAYENNE at 1800 kg which could compete with the 997 Carrera S up to a certain level. The point is: WHO do you want to sell the Cayman to? WHICH is the target market? Young people? Porsche newcomers? Old people who want to feel young again? Former Porsche owners who don't like the 911? People who don't have enough money for the 911? How does the "typcial" Cayman S potential buyer look alike? Well: I could post a few sentences out of a marketing document regarding the Cayman S but it is confidential (as far as I know) and some people would feel offended again. The truth is: the Cayman S isn't supposed to be "better" than the 911. Period. But if there is demand, a sportier Cayman would be possible for the far future. Right now, all rumors indicate a Cayman base model for less money, somewhere between the Boxster and Boxster S.

    I think this strategy isn't good for Porsche. The Cayman S should have had 320-340 HP from the start, the 997 should have had more than 355 HP from the beginning, no 325 HP base model. I think Porsche thinks too much marketing and earning money and not enough customer satisfaction.
    No potential 997 customer would seriously consider buying a Cayman S because it has a mid engine and only two seats.
    And some potential Cayman S customers don't want a rear engine design and two additional rear seats.

    At the beginning, I thought that the Cayman S is some sort of "attack" upon the legend 911 to make Porsche independent, on a long term run, from their traditional sportscar. But with the Cayenne and the Panamera around the corner, I doubt that Porsche really has to worry about their future. So unfortunately for the Cayman, it is what nobody really wanted: a very nice and highly refined Boxster Coupe. Nobody really asked for it.

    Re: Engineering data shows Porsche restricts Cayman S...

    If Porsche offered a Cayman with the same drivetrain as a 997S for the same money, I'd buy the Cayman over the 997S sight unseen.

    I can assure you I am not the only one.

    Re: Engineering data shows Porsche restricts Cayman S...

    RC, you make a number over very significant insights, which I tend to agree with. In particular, the very tight spread between the Boxster, Cayman and 911 models in performance is "unnatural" and designed to maximize profits. I would actually argue that Porsche has already ensured its long-term independence with its 20% equity stake in Volkswagen this fall (likely to increase in next two years when the "VW Law" is rescinded), so you're basic question of what is Porsche's intent with the Cayman become relevant right away and not just in a few years. In that sense, I think Porsche is letting its customers tell them what to do for the future. Afterall, global 911 sales have been essentially guaranteed to be about 20k units, but is capacity limited as customers will probably not accept a 911 built anywhere but Stuttgart. They can play the "mix upgrade" game with more of the specialty GT2, GT3 and Turbo derivatives, but growth needs to come elsewhere. Boxster sales have been strong, but that segment is more competitive than for 911's segment. I know the Cayman S is not intended to outperform the 911, but I am voting with my wallet to encourage Porsche to at least consider specialty models of the Cayman that will incorporate all that should have been at the outset (ie. lighterweight, more power, LSD) all at a reasonable price, of course. All IMO, your mileage may differ.

    BTW, please share what you were told of Porsche's marketing intent for the Cayman S at some future date. We all know that not everything comes out as intended, so I don't think there will be any harm in that. I also think that the vast, vast majority of interested parties for the Cayman S know Porsche is positioning it below the 911 and do not expect it to outperform the 911 straight from the factory.

    Re: Engineering data shows Porsche restricts Cayman S...

    seems quite simple to me
    the cayman is porsche's attempt to create 911 level profits on a boxster

    that said, i want a cayman, not a 997- i don't need the back seat and appreciate the handling and turn in, i will miss the HP

    aloha

    steve

    Re: Engineering data shows Porsche restricts Cayman S...

    Quote:
    macsak said:
    seems quite simple to me
    the cayman is porsche's attempt to create 911 level profits on a boxster

    that said, i want a cayman, not a 997- i don't need the back seat and appreciate the handling and turn in, i will miss the HP

    aloha



    steve



    perfect analysis

    Re: Engineering data shows Porsche restricts Cayman S...

    Quote:
    macsak said:
    seems quite simple to me
    the cayman is porsche's attempt to create 911 level profits on a boxster

    that said, i want a cayman, not a 997- i don't need the back seat and appreciate the handling and turn in, i will miss the HP

    aloha

    steve



    I think that's exactly right, and wish only that Porsche would build higher performance mid-engine cars even if they do have the 911's higher profit margins. But you guys have heard me complain about that in at least 3 or 4 earlier threads, so I'll stop here.

    mcdelaug

    Re: Engineering data shows Porsche restricts Cayman S...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I think Porsche thinks too much marketing and earning money and not enough customer satisfaction.:(



    Yes, I would also love to see a Cayman with a 997S engine or a 997 with a GT3 engine but no wings etc. Although these cars will most likely never exist (and we all know that) we are still buying Porsches like there is no tomorrow.

    Despite dreaming of stronger engines or another win at Le Mans, most P-owners I know incl. myself are still pretty satisfied with their cars as they are and would rather buy another one than going out and replace it with a beamer or else.

    So who can blame Porsche and the marketing people for doing the wrong thing. They will only change their approach if the buying behaviour changes, i.e. when a large number of potential Porsche customers starts buying Maseratis, Aston etc. instead.

    I am even not sure whether it makes a bloody difference to them whether you or myself or other Porsche enthusiasts look elsewhere. It is a numbers game and as long as they can sell 95.000 cars a year to people who don't care about these things and make a good profit on it, they will continue to do so.

    Just my 2cents!

    OAB

    Re: Engineering data shows Porsche restricts Cayman S...

    Quote:
    schao said:
    I know the Cayman S is not intended to outperform the 911, but I am voting with my wallet to encourage Porsche to at least consider specialty models of the Cayman that will incorporate all that should have been at the outset (ie. lighterweight, more power, LSD) all at a reasonable price, of course.



    I have stated this before, but will reiterate. I am a 911 Turbo guy (own a 996TSCab, await 997TT the replacement) who will always prefer that to a Cayman in any form, BUT I would have been interested in ADDING a Cayman to my stable IF it were powered and light enough. Instead, I ordered a Noble M400 that fit all the criteria: Mid-engined, RWD, 6-speed manual coupe, high P:W ratio (400bhp/tonne), with excellent brakes, suspension and handling. If Porsche would build a superfast Cayman variant, like a CaymanTT-with perhaps some styling changes and GT-2/GT3-like weight savings changes, I likely would get in line. I suspect that it would be priced high enough so as not to "compete" with the 911NA market, perhaps paralleling the 911TT market-from my budget standpoint, I would still be interested. I hope Porsche reads this thread.

    Re: Engineering data shows Porsche restricts Cayman S...

    Quote:
    mbr129 said:
    If Porsche offered a Cayman with the same drivetrain as a 997S for the same money, I'd buy the Cayman over the 997S sight unseen.

    I can assure you I am not the only one.



    Would you buy a mid-engined 997?

    Of course, like I said before: the Cayman S would be the hell of a sportscar IF Porsche would have wanted to position it (marketing-wise) next to the 911. But they were afraid of their own courage AND of course it would have costed much more money to develop the Cayman S from scratch than just "adapting" the Boxster instead.

    It really depends on how succesful the Cayman S is, it can't be excluded that Porsche changes their attitude if the Cayman is very very succesful. But one thing has to be clear: I read in some of the posts pretty dumb comments about the 911 concept and even in some recent car magazines, some people seem to believe that the 911 is no real sportscar but just something Porsche wants to make us believe. Take the latest comparison tests/reviews of the 997 models, for example the latest one in AMS (Aston Martin Vantage V8 vs. 997 CS) or others and you'll learn very fast: the 911 is one of the finest sportscars in the world. Still. And it is Porsche's decision to create a similar product out of the Cayman in a few years...IF they really want it. Right now, Cayman buyers get what they're paying for.

    Re: Engineering data shows Porsche restricts Cayman S...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    You shouldn't forget that the Cayman S engine is different from the Boxster S engine, even if both are actually based on the same M96 engine base design.
    But up to a certain point, you have a valid argument.
    Of course a Cayman with 355 HP would be superior to the 997 Carrera S, especially if Porsche manages to install a limited slip differential and a slightly sportier suspension (not PASM) on the Cayman. But that's not the point. Porsche could build a lightweight CAYENNE at 1800 kg which could compete with the 997 Carrera S up to a certain level. The point is: WHO do you want to sell the Cayman to? WHICH is the target market? Young people? Porsche newcomers? Old people who want to feel young again? Former Porsche owners who don't like the 911? People who don't have enough money for the 911? How does the "typcial" Cayman S potential buyer look alike? Well: I could post a few sentences out of a marketing document regarding the Cayman S but it is confidential (as far as I know) and some people would feel offended again. The truth is: the Cayman S isn't supposed to be "better" than the 911. Period. But if there is demand, a sportier Cayman would be possible for the far future. Right now, all rumors indicate a Cayman base model for less money, somewhere between the Boxster and Boxster S.

    I think this strategy isn't good for Porsche. The Cayman S should have had 320-340 HP from the start, the 997 should have had more than 355 HP from the beginning, no 325 HP base model. I think Porsche thinks too much marketing and earning money and not enough customer satisfaction.
    No potential 997 customer would seriously consider buying a Cayman S because it has a mid engine and only two seats.
    And some potential Cayman S customers don't want a rear engine design and two additional rear seats.

    At the beginning, I thought that the Cayman S is some sort of "attack" upon the legend 911 to make Porsche independent, on a long term run, from their traditional sportscar. But with the Cayenne and the Panamera around the corner, I doubt that Porsche really has to worry about their future. So unfortunately for the Cayman, it is what nobody really wanted: a very nice and highly refined Boxster Coupe. Nobody really asked for it.



    Just a guess, RC, but might it be possible that Porsche wanted to fill a perceived gap in its product line (the marketing and strategist folks - maybe the CEO Dr. Wiedeking) so that none of the cars that have a higher "entry price level" - like Maserati and Aston Martin (the U.S. $100-130,000 range) don't try to place a model, successfully, in Porsche's price range?

    Jim

    Re: Engineering data shows Porsche restricts Cayman S...

    Quote:
    Jim48 said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    You shouldn't forget that the Cayman S engine is different from the Boxster S engine, even if both are actually based on the same M96 engine base design.
    But up to a certain point, you have a valid argument.
    Of course a Cayman with 355 HP would be superior to the 997 Carrera S, especially if Porsche manages to install a limited slip differential and a slightly sportier suspension (not PASM) on the Cayman. But that's not the point. Porsche could build a lightweight CAYENNE at 1800 kg which could compete with the 997 Carrera S up to a certain level. The point is: WHO do you want to sell the Cayman to? WHICH is the target market? Young people? Porsche newcomers? Old people who want to feel young again? Former Porsche owners who don't like the 911? People who don't have enough money for the 911? How does the "typcial" Cayman S potential buyer look alike? Well: I could post a few sentences out of a marketing document regarding the Cayman S but it is confidential (as far as I know) and some people would feel offended again. The truth is: the Cayman S isn't supposed to be "better" than the 911. Period. But if there is demand, a sportier Cayman would be possible for the far future. Right now, all rumors indicate a Cayman base model for less money, somewhere between the Boxster and Boxster S.

    I think this strategy isn't good for Porsche. The Cayman S should have had 320-340 HP from the start, the 997 should have had more than 355 HP from the beginning, no 325 HP base model. I think Porsche thinks too much marketing and earning money and not enough customer satisfaction.
    No potential 997 customer would seriously consider buying a Cayman S because it has a mid engine and only two seats.
    And some potential Cayman S customers don't want a rear engine design and two additional rear seats.

    At the beginning, I thought that the Cayman S is some sort of "attack" upon the legend 911 to make Porsche independent, on a long term run, from their traditional sportscar. But with the Cayenne and the Panamera around the corner, I doubt that Porsche really has to worry about their future. So unfortunately for the Cayman, it is what nobody really wanted: a very nice and highly refined Boxster Coupe. Nobody really asked for it.



    Just a guess, RC, but might it be possible that Porsche wanted to fill a perceived gap in its product line (the marketing and strategist folks - maybe the CEO Dr. Wiedeking) so that none of the cars that have a higher "entry price level" - like Maserati and Aston Martin (the U.S. $100-130,000 range) don't try to place a model, successfully, in Porsche's price range?

    Jim



    I think Jim is right.

    In evo's October Cover story Aston v 911, evo said:

    "It's no secret that we love the 911 at evo. Love its integrity, its pace, its delivery. And, above all, love the challenge it presents and the rewards it gives when shown sufficient commitment. ------

    Funny thing is, as a former head of Porsche, Aston's boss, Ulrich Bez, knows this better than anyone. However, he also knows that not every 911 customer buys it because they're looking for a hardcore challenge."

    The Aston Vantage targets 911 customers who aren't looking for the 911 hardcore challenge, but they do want quality, near 911 performance, everday usability, and prestige.

    The Cayman S offers Porsche customers much of what the Aston offers at a much lower cost though with correspondingly less exclusivity.

    Road&Track tested both the Cayman S and Aston Vantage in its November issue:

    0-60 mph Aston 4.7 Cayman 4.8
    1/4 mile Aston 13.1 @ 107.9 mph
    1/4 mile Cayman 13.3 @ 106.2 mph
    slalom Aston 68.6 mph Cayman 71.7 mph

    Re: Engineering data shows Porsche restricts Cayman S...

    Quote:
    HHG said:
    ...
    Road&Track tested both the Cayman S and Aston Vantage in its November issue:

    0-60 mph Aston 4.7 Cayman 4.8
    1/4 mile Aston 13.1 @ 107.9 mph
    1/4 mile Cayman 13.3 @ 106.2 mph
    slalom Aston 68.6 mph Cayman 71.7 mph



    Those numbers are quie surprising to me - you summed up the similiarities and differences between the Aston and Cayman pretty well - I actually doubt that a lot of buyers go cross-shopping between those two cars but who knows...

     
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