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    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    reginos:

    Porsche name doesn't exhibit wealth.

    Really?? Not as much as Ferrari and Lambo but still Porsche is a luxury item.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    koko:
    reginos:

    Porsche name doesn't exhibit wealth.

    Really?? Not as much as Ferrari and Lambo but still Porsche is a luxury item.

    Sure, it's not for poor people but even a 911 Turbo is far from an entry level Ferrari or Lamborghini in terms purchase price and maintenance. The 911 S much less so. I would say a 911 it's on par with a top Mercedes in terms of  affordability.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    911 versions have some sense. These Lambo editions really are just silly in this price range.


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    reginos:

    Ferrari and Lamborghini to many are primarily  means of flashing money whereas the  Porsche name doesn't exhibit wealth. A matter of priorities I suppose Smiley


    +1


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    REALZEUS:

     

    You cannot really compare a million Dollar Enzo to an Aventador that costs 1/3rd of what the Ferrari costs. The fact remains that the Aventador is much bigger than the Murci and is also lighter at the same time and a lot stiffer!


    just as a 997 turbo S will be a better car and outperform a 959, an aventador will be a better car and outperform an enzo.


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    intouch1:
    REALZEUS:

     

    You cannot really compare a million Dollar Enzo to an Aventador that costs 1/3rd of what the Ferrari costs. The fact remains that the Aventador is much bigger than the Murci and is also lighter at the same time and a lot stiffer!


    just as a 997 turbo S will be a better car and outperform a 959, an aventador will be a better car and outperform an enzo.

     

     This remains to be seen really. The Enzo is more than 200 kg lighter...


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

     Enzo has ancient tech compared to the aventador and les power. 


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    palenimbus:

     Enzo has ancient tech compared to the aventador and les power. 

     

    The power to weight ratio (the thing that really matters) of the Enzo is much superior to that of the Aventador! The only sectors in which the Aventador is clearly ahead are the gearbox and the electronics.


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

     the aventador is the most beautiful car today imo. as for weight, i think it mainly come from awd and luxury, and these days sunday supercar are gone, people want cars that can be driven easily, everyday and with luxury, i am one of them. of course there is people that prefer ultra hardcore supercars, but their numbers are low and manufacturer cant rely on them


    --

    2010 Ferrari 458 Italia 

    2009 Fiat 500 Abarth SS Ferrari 


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    dhayek:

     the aventador is the most beautiful car today imo. as for weight, i think it mainly come from awd and luxury, and these days sunday supercar are gone, people want cars that can be driven easily, everyday and with luxury, i am one of them. of course there is people that prefer ultra hardcore supercars, but their numbers are low and manufacturer cant rely on them

     

    Manufacturers cater for the hardcore enthusiasts also with their special lightweight models (Scuderia, GTO, Superleggera, Superveloce, RS et. al).


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Though for Lambo that simply means a bigger spoiler and some stripes in the bonnet


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Look guys, we all know from previous experience Lamborghini will run a model cycle of about 8-10 years. During that period the 1st iteration is generally the "sandbagged" version. The engine is intentionally held back. Weight which can be removed is intentionally left on the car. In 3 years we'll see the inevitable lightening and Hp bump, sooner if the model doesn't prove to be a good seller.

    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    REALZEUS:
    palenimbus:

     Enzo has ancient tech compared to the aventador and les power. 

     

    The power to weight ratio (the thing that really matters) of the Enzo is much superior to that of the Aventador! The only sectors in which the Aventador is clearly ahead are the gearbox and the electronics.

     


    I'm not that sure about this one, REALZEUS. Aventador has more power and is not that much heavier. Plus it has the far superior gearbox, Enzo's F1 is Stone Age against it

    I'd guess it's a dead heat between those two. Smiley
     

    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    dhayek:

     the aventador is the most beautiful car today imo. as for weight, i think it mainly come from awd and luxury, and these days sunday supercar are gone, people want cars that can be driven easily, everyday and with luxury, i am one of them. of course there is people that prefer ultra hardcore supercars, but their numbers are low and manufacturer cant rely on them

    Dimitry, I was wondering where you were. nice to see you back online.

    Kindly give us a long term review of your 458.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    I just got back from seeing the Aventador in the flesh at the Geneva auto show.

     

    It looks simply awesome. It always photographed well, but the details are just brilliant.

     

    Bellisima!


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Nice to hear, would love to see your photos from the show. It it growing on me i have to say.

    As for the Enzo, this Lambo will beat it no question. But they are different animals from a different era of cars.


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    REALZEUS:
    palenimbus:

     Enzo has ancient tech compared to the aventador and les power. 

     

    The power to weight ratio (the thing that really matters) of the Enzo is much superior to that of the Aventador! The only sectors in which the Aventador is clearly ahead are the gearbox and the electronics.

     

     

     There are a lot of advancements other than the gearbox. The chassis for example is a point of note with the new adventador, apparently it's stiffer than other car. Also the electronics (traction control etc), brakes. I think it will be faster.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    palenimbus:
    REALZEUS:
    palenimbus:

     Enzo has ancient tech compared to the aventador and les power. 

     

    The power to weight ratio (the thing that really matters) of the Enzo is much superior to that of the Aventador! The only sectors in which the Aventador is clearly ahead are the gearbox and the electronics.

     

     

     There are a lot of advancements other than the gearbox. The chassis for example is a point of note with the new adventador, apparently it's stiffer than other car. Also the electronics (traction control etc), brakes. I think it will be faster.

     

    Stiffer chassis than the Murcielago that is. Smiley The Enzo had a carbon tub also and inherited 20 years of Formula 1 experience with that material on top of that. 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    the Aventador is 0.4 sec faster to 60mph...


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

     

     

     

    REALZEUS: This remains to be seen really. The Enzo is more than 200 kg lighter...

     

     Actually, the Enzo is more than 300 kg lighter ! 

     Enzo weight: 1255 kg (dry)

    Aventador weight: 1575 kg (dry) 

     

    Rossi:
    REALZEUS:
    palenimbus:

     Enzo has ancient tech compared to the aventador and les power. 

     

    The power to weight ratio (the thing that really matters) of the Enzo is much superior to that of the Aventador! The only sectors in which the Aventador is clearly ahead are the gearbox and the electronics.

     


    I'm not that sure about this one, REALZEUS. Aventador has more power and is not that much heavier. Plus it has the far superior gearbox, Enzo's F1 is Stone Age against it

    I'd guess it's a dead heat between those two. Smiley


     

    So 320 kilograms is not that much heavier to you ??? It's like having 5 (yes, FIVE!) people more on board of the car ! So at any given time the lambo has to carry 5 people excluding the driver or passenger, while the enzo has to carry NONE. In terms of power to weight ratio, that means the lambo WASTES 20% of it's power or 140 horses just to carry the invisible passengers ! So that means that in order to propel the same weight as that of an enzo (1250+fluids+driver), the lambo only has 560 bhp to spare ! This while the ferrari has 660 bhp, so 100 more ponies available for the same weight !

     

     

     

     

     

     


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

      Enzo weight: 1255 kg (dry), is that according to the normal metric system ? or ferrari's special metric system?


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    zmeulzmeilor:
    REALZEUS: This remains to be seen really. The Enzo is more than 200 kg lighter... 

     Actually, the Enzo is more than 300 kg lighter ! 

     Enzo weight: 1255 kg (dry)

    Aventador weight: 1575 kg (dry) 

     Rossi:

    REALZEUS:
    palenimbus:

     Enzo has ancient tech compared to the aventador and les power.  

    The power to weight ratio (the thing that really matters) of the Enzo is much superior to that of the Aventador! The only sectors in which the Aventador is clearly ahead are the gearbox and the electronics.

    I'm not that sure about this one, REALZEUS. Aventador has more power and is not that much heavier. Plus it has the far superior gearbox, Enzo's F1 is Stone Age against it

    I'd guess it's a dead heat between those two. Smiley

    So 320 kilograms is not that much heavier to you ??? It's like having 5 (yes, FIVE!) people more on board of the car ! So at any given time the lambo has to carry 5 people excluding the driver or passenger, while the enzo has to carry NONE. In terms of power to weight ratio, that means the lambo WASTES 20% of it's power or 140 horses just to carry the invisible passengers ! So that means that in order to propel the same weight as that of an enzo (1250+fluids+driver), the lambo only has 560 bhp to spare ! This while the ferrari has 660 bhp, so 100 more ponies available for the same weight ! 


    Keep your shirt on, zmeulzmeilor. Smiley

    If you believe in the 1.255 dry weight of the Enzo, I guess you also believe in Santa Clause. Smiley
    May I direct your attention to a veritable test of the Enzo, for example done by Road and Track in 2003:

    Enzo curb weight: 1.465 kg (factory claim)
    Enzo curb weight: 1.550 kg (measured by R&T)

    So if the factory claim of the Aventador is honest (okay, despite of Audi it's still an Italian car... Smiley), the difference between those two won't be that much.


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    And Enzo's official curb weight is 1365 kg, not 1465. Road and track measured the curb weight at 1468 kg (3230 lb). But they also measured the Mclaren F1 at 1290 kg (2840 lb), whereas the official claim is 1140 ! Which means the americans probably have a different understanding of the term "curb weight" (maybe they include their kids, dog, and other farm animals in it, as they're used with their pick-ups Smiley), and/or they're just too damn fat and hence the 100+ kg increase over the factory claims. 

    And let me get this straight: you want me to trust lamborghini's factory claims but not ferrari's ? But then I would be BIASED wouldn't I ? Smiley  Either way, you can't compare apples with oranges, i.e lambo's factory claim with some magazine's claim about it's rival, you either compare official claims for both cars, or compare magazine claims (preferably from the same magazine) for both cars, otherwise it's just stupid. So from the official (i.e. factory) sources, enzo is lighter by a whooping 320 kg's than aventador, and until several independent sources say otherwise I have no reason to doubt this.

     

     

     


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    zmeulzmeilor:

     Enzo's official curb weight is 1365 kg, not 1465. Road and track measured the curb weight at 1468 kg (3230 lb). But they also measured the Mclaren F1 at 1290 kg (2840 lb), whereas the official claim is 1140 ! Which means the americans probably have a different understanding of the term "curb weight" (maybe they include their kids, dog, and other farm animals in it, as they're used with their pick-ups Smiley), and/or they're just too damn fat and hence the 100+ kg increase over the factory claims.


    I don't give a damn on Ferrari's official curb weight numbers, since we all know, that you can't trust these figures at all. Smiley

    Fact is, that an Enzo is close to 1.500 kg, without driver and baggage that is (which is a good number, given the size of the car).

    I stop discussing with you here, since it will lead us nowhere. BTW, I find your wording quite offensive, this is not how we talk here at Rennteam.
     

    EDIT (since you added something to your post): I don't want you to trust anything and if you can read properly you will see, that I was saying IF THE FACTORY CLAIM OF THE AVENTADOR IS HONEST. Got it now? Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Any Enzo owners on this board? Come to think of it, im not sure...

    The above weight posts are getting crazy... I vote PICS OR BAN 


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

     I always thought the Enzo is about the same speed around the nring as the Carrera GT, so if the aventador can beat the Carrera GT then it should also beat the enzo.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Rossi:
    I don't give a damn on Ferrari's official curb weight numbers, since we all know, that you can't trust these figures at all. Smiley

     

    BUT YOU SAID THAT  "Enzo curb weight is 1.465 kg (factory claim)" . Which is NOT true, as anyone can see ferrari claims it's 1365.

    Also, the curb weight from R&T you gave wasn't accurate either ! So please, stop making claims you can't back up.


    Fact is, that an Enzo is close to 1.500 kg, without driver and baggage that is (which is a good number, given the size of the car).

     

    I don't get it, why is this a fact ? Just because some stupid magazine says so ? And how do you know the weight they measured (1468 kg, not 1550 like you said) was without driver and baggage ? It only says curb weight, and curb weight usually includes driver and baggage.

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/car/2003-ferrari-enzo/page_5_-_2003_ferrari_enzo_page_5

     

    I stop discussing with you here, since it will lead us nowhere. BTW, I find your wording quite offensive, this is not how we talk here at Rennteam. 

    Yes indeed, it will lead us nowhere is if you keep making claims with no basis what so ever and draw conclusions on those claims. My conclusion is based on actual weight provided by the manufacturer, your conclusion is based on illogical assumptions (i.e ferrari lies abouts it's cars weight, lambo does not, R&T magazine measurements are reliable, factory measurements are not) and/or made up numbers just to follow your already drawn conclusion.

    EDIT (since you added something to your post): I don't want you to trust anything and if you can read properly you will see, that I was saying IF THE FACTORY CLAIM OF THE AVENTADOR IS HONEST. Got it now? Smiley


    No, I don't get it. Because if you assume that the factory claim of the aventador is honest, you should assume that the factory claim of the enzo is honest too. 

     

     


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

     

     

    The weight of Enzo

    Many magazines confuse the weight figures of Enzo and rivals. Ferrari claims Enzo's dry weight is 1255kg while kerb weight (with driver, engine fluid and half tank of fuel) is 1365kg. In the past, Ferrari quoted only dry weight for F40 (1100kg) and F50 (1230kg). Many other Italian supercar specialists also prefer to quote dry weight, such as Pagani Zonda C12S (1250kg) and Lamborghini Murcielago (1650kg). 

     

    Unfortunately, some magazines (including Autocar and Evo) confused dry weight with kerb weight thus incorrectly reported that Enzo were 135kg heavier than F50 or 115kg heavier than Pagani Zonda etc. In fact, Enzo is just 25kg heavier than F50 and 5kg heavier than Zonda. 

    However, McLaren F1's 1138kg, according to McLaren, is kerb weight. Therefore it is 227kg lighter than Enzo.

    http://www.autozine.org/html/Ferrari/Enzo.html

    You see ? Even professional reviewers trust the official claims ! And if I were to believe R&T, then I should think that not only ferrari, but also mclaren lies about their car's weight, since R&T claims curb weight for the F1 is 1290 kg, wheras mclaren says it's 1138 ! 

     

     


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    McLaren, that honest bunch of people (of the Spygate and the Hamilton-Trully incident fame) lying? No... 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    LP700-4 order guide with pics:

    http://www.vonbraun.se/_Pages/290/Aventador_LP700-4_Product_Information.pdf


     
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