Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Since you repeated exactly what you said a few posts earlier, I do the same:

    The 997 Turbo Tiptronic and the 997 Turbo Manual have a different software mapping, I don't understand where the problem is. The motronic "detects" the kind of gearbox from the programmed identification codes and switches to the correct mapping. There are also different software variants for different markets. Don't understand why this is a surprise for you?!

    OK?!



    You are trying to assign some special meaning to a normal phenomenon. That is all I am trying to explain.

    Change the 5spd to a 4spd, the motor will build even more boost in the lower gears. Conversely, put a 7spd in and it will build less boost. Add a torque converter with a higher stall and it will build more boost. Use a converter with less stall or a DSG with no converter and it will build less boost.

    If you do not understand these concepts then I would suggest educating yourself about it before chanting your same opine over and over again.



    Eclou,

    While it is true that an auto tranny's torque converter mechanics, including stall speed and gear numbers, influence boost, the PRIMARY determinant of boost pressure is the engine output and turbocharger impeller and compressor interactions which dictates how much exhaust gas pressure can transduce turbocharger compression and subsequent increased gas/fuel combustion (and peak engine output)-ALL of which is regulated by the engine ECU-which is controlled by the ECU's software (and easily manipulated in modern cars through the use of a computer)-the main reason 911 turbo's are so easily tuned-simply by re-programming the ECU to increase boost. This is readily accomplished in manual and Tip vehicles (so long as the boost is tolerated-mechanically and thermodynamically by the engine, turbo's, boost hoses, and headers).

    So both the 997TT manual and TipS can (and WILL) be tuned by tuners (and by PAG-they will call them the GT2 and TurboS-ever hear of those model variants?). And each will require DIFFERENT software programs, manual versus Tip, USA versus Europe (due to different emission regulations), even for lower versus higher octane uses-Evolution Motorsports in Arizona where I got my upgrade for my 996TSCab is working on different software programs for 91 vs. 93 vs. 100 octane 997TT upgrades for those with different fuel uses in different parts of the country.

    Now why can't you accept that the programming of a stock manual vs. a stock Tip 997TT is different (they have to be since the mapping will differ at each throttle/rev point for manual vs. Tip), and that max. boost can be adjusted differently between manual and Tip, with Tip relatively more boosted? In fact, when we all learned here on rennteam of Tip's "official" superior performance over manual in the 997TT earlier this year, I specifically suggested that this was achieved via Tip's being programmed with different boost vs. manual to achieve that superiority, and RC's post today seems to support my contention.

    Certainly, PAG marketing could want to do this to attract the Mercedes Benz auto. tranny demographic- even though many of us rennteamers (perhaps both you and me ) might not want this.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    As long as you don't understand this, there is no way you can argue with me.





    ROTFLMAO!!!!! I've gotta remember that one w/ the wife.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    thanks for the (as usual) very interesting insight/info RC!!
    moving little away from the "secret",how are you adapting to those "switches" for gearchanges(manual mode) and wouldn't you prefer some paddles in they're place?

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    IF the tiptronic engine has a different set of boost and fuel maps for the engine then it would DEFINITELY have a different dyno torque plot than the manual. Period. 1 psi boost is worth about 20ft/lbs of torque in my 2.5l 944 turbo. Don't you think that Porsche would advertise this mythical advantage?

    When you are comparing engine boost from 0-100 kph, the tip and the manual achieve that without the same number of engine revolutions due to the gearing. As such, you CANNOT compare boost readouts (how accurate is the dash gauge anyway?). The only way to truly compare that would be if each car was using the exact same gearing under the exact same load. Assuming each car has the same final drive, that could be compare using whatever gear is 1:1 or another identical ratio.

    I know that you desperately want to believe the tip has been created through some kind of divine intervention, but it simply is not so. "Networked" or not.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    IF the tiptronic engine has a different set of boost and fuel maps for the engine then it would DEFINITELY have a different dyno torque plot than the manual. Period. 1 psi boost is worth about 20ft/lbs of torque in my 2.5l 944 turbo. Don't you think that Porsche would advertise this mythical advantage?

    When you are comparing engine boost from 0-100 kph, the tip and the manual achieve that without the same number of engine revolutions due to the gearing. As such, you CANNOT compare boost readouts (how accurate is the dash gauge anyway?). The only way to truly compare that would be if each car was using the exact same gearing under the exact same load. Assuming each car has the same final drive, that could be compare using whatever gear is 1:1 or another identical ratio.

    I know that you desperately want to believe the tip has been created through some kind of divine intervention, but it simply is not so. "Networked" or not.



    Lou, he gets his info from inside Porsche. He isn't making things up. And why would Porsche advertise extra power? They can't, as most manual owners would feel cheated. Also, how would DOT or TüV react to different power levels?

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    And why would Porsche advertise extra power? They can't, as most manual owners would feel cheated. Also, how would DOT or TüV react to different power levels?



    Your very last statement is the major reason why the Tip cannot have more power nor torque than the manual. If this was the case the car would be illegal (at least in Germany). No way Porsche would run such risk

    BTW, I am still not convinced that the performance of Tip needs a special explanation:

    1. The only Tip magazine test available to date (based on my knowledge) resulted in 0-200 performance identical (or nearly identical) to various tests of the manual version; i.e. the first question is: is there a straight-line acceleration advantage for the Tip at all?
    2. Let's assume that 0-200 performance is identical for manual and Tip: why is Tip that fast? It is that fast as the gear changes happen much faster than in case of the 996 (due to gear-box fine tuning) plus some software tuning (pre-charging etc.); these improvements compensate for the less efficient gear-box technology (compared to the manual)
    3. When I tested the high-speed acceleration of a 997TT, 200-300 kph acceleration was nearly identical in 5th/6th gear and in 6th gear; i.e. use of the 5th gear does not improve high-speed acceleration above 200kph
    4. Given this last observation it is now logical that Tip is not slower above 200kph than manual as the only advantage of manual in that speed range is the additional 6th gear (which, as described above, does not improve acceleration)

    In summary, the relative Tip / manual performance is somehow logical

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    And why would Porsche advertise extra power? They can't, as most manual owners would feel cheated. Also, how would DOT or TüV react to different power levels?



    Your very last statement is the major reason why the Tip cannot have more power nor torque than the manual. If this was the case the car would be illegal (at least in Germany). No way Porsche would run such risk

    BTW, I am still not convinced that the performance of Tip needs a special explanation:

    1. The only Tip magazine test available to date (based on my knowledge) resulted in 0-200 performance identical (or nearly identical) to various tests of the manual version; i.e. the first question is: is there a straight-line acceleration advantage for the Tip at all?
    2. Let's assume that 0-200 performance is identical for manual and Tip: why is Tip that fast? It is that fast as the gear changes happen much faster than in case of the 996 (due to gear-box fine tuning) plus some software tuning (pre-charging etc.); these improvements compensate for the less efficient gear-box technology (compared to the manual)
    3. When I tested the high-speed acceleration of a 997TT, 200-300 kph acceleration was nearly identical in 5th/6th gear and in 6th gear; i.e. use of the 5th gear does not improve high-speed acceleration above 200kph
    4. Given this last observation it is now logical that Tip is not slower above 200kph than manual as the only advantage of manual in that speed range is the additional 6th gear (which, as described above, does not improve acceleration)

    In summary, the relative Tip / manual performance is somehow logical



    RC stated that the Tip only has more boost in CERTAIN rev ranges. Peak power and torque would probably remain the same, but the Tip would have SOME advantage. Unless that would also be deemed illegal by the TüV?
    I hear your logic, but what bothers me is, why does the 996TT Tip have so much less peformance, compared to the manual? The Tip and manual 997TT will run neck and neck, while the Tip 996TT will stay behind the 6-speed. Honestly, I'm not sure what to think .

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    A car with plentiful low-end torque will not benefit from gearing as much as a car with a higher end and narrow power band. One example is the 5spd Merc E55 accelerates as fast as the 7spd M5. Swap trannies, the Merc will not gain as much acceleration as the M5 will lose. That may explain why the 996tt had more penalty from the 5 spd.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    And why would Porsche advertise extra power? They can't, as most manual owners would feel cheated. Also, how would DOT or TüV react to different power levels?



    Your very last statement is the major reason why the Tip cannot have more power nor torque than the manual. If this was the case the car would be illegal (at least in Germany). No way Porsche would run such risk

    BTW, I am still not convinced that the performance of Tip needs a special explanation:

    1. The only Tip magazine test available to date (based on my knowledge) resulted in 0-200 performance identical (or nearly identical) to various tests of the manual version; i.e. the first question is: is there a straight-line acceleration advantage for the Tip at all?
    2. Let's assume that 0-200 performance is identical for manual and Tip: why is Tip that fast? It is that fast as the gear changes happen much faster than in case of the 996 (due to gear-box fine tuning) plus some software tuning (pre-charging etc.); these improvements compensate for the less efficient gear-box technology (compared to the manual)
    3. When I tested the high-speed acceleration of a 997TT, 200-300 kph acceleration was nearly identical in 5th/6th gear and in 6th gear; i.e. use of the 5th gear does not improve high-speed acceleration above 200kph
    4. Given this last observation it is now logical that Tip is not slower above 200kph than manual as the only advantage of manual in that speed range is the additional 6th gear (which, as described above, does not improve acceleration)

    In summary, the relative Tip / manual performance is somehow logical



    RC stated that the Tip only has more boost in CERTAIN rev ranges. Peak power and torque would probably remain the same, but the Tip would have SOME advantage. Unless that would also be deemed illegal by the TüV?
    I hear your logic, but what bothers me is, why does the 996TT Tip have so much less peformance, compared to the manual? The Tip and manual 997TT will run neck and neck, while the Tip 996TT will stay behind the 6-speed. Honestly, I'm not sure what to think .



    I have a few theories:

    1.) Old generation tiptronics have been replaced by far more advance, performance oriented trannies. The narrowing of the gap can be seen in many other cars (manual vs tip) other than simply Porsche.

    2.) Boost pressure integration with VTGs through the PTM network (starting to get a headache with all this P-jargon) has been optimized for the first time to benefit the pre-boosting elements of auto-trannies.

    3.) PPM- also known as Porsche Profit Management deemed shipping off antiquated tiptronic hardware before complete industry transferance to sequential gearboxes. Management made the order imperative to the engineers!

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Those tricky bastards.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    And why would Porsche advertise extra power? They can't, as most manual owners would feel cheated. Also, how would DOT or TüV react to different power levels?



    Your very last statement is the major reason why the Tip cannot have more power nor torque than the manual. If this was the case the car would be illegal (at least in Germany). No way Porsche would run such risk

    BTW, I am still not convinced that the performance of Tip needs a special explanation:

    1. The only Tip magazine test available to date (based on my knowledge) resulted in 0-200 performance identical (or nearly identical) to various tests of the manual version; i.e. the first question is: is there a straight-line acceleration advantage for the Tip at all?
    2. Let's assume that 0-200 performance is identical for manual and Tip: why is Tip that fast? It is that fast as the gear changes happen much faster than in case of the 996 (due to gear-box fine tuning) plus some software tuning (pre-charging etc.); these improvements compensate for the less efficient gear-box technology (compared to the manual)
    3. When I tested the high-speed acceleration of a 997TT, 200-300 kph acceleration was nearly identical in 5th/6th gear and in 6th gear; i.e. use of the 5th gear does not improve high-speed acceleration above 200kph
    4. Given this last observation it is now logical that Tip is not slower above 200kph than manual as the only advantage of manual in that speed range is the additional 6th gear (which, as described above, does not improve acceleration)

    In summary, the relative Tip / manual performance is somehow logical



    RC stated that the Tip only has more boost in CERTAIN rev ranges. Peak power and torque would probably remain the same, but the Tip would have SOME advantage. Unless that would also be deemed illegal by the TüV?
    I hear your logic, but what bothers me is, why does the 996TT Tip have so much less peformance, compared to the manual? The Tip and manual 997TT will run neck and neck, while the Tip 996TT will stay behind the 6-speed. Honestly, I'm not sure what to think .



    I have a few theories:

    1.) Old generation tiptronics have been replaced by far more advance, performance oriented trannies. The narrowing of the gap can be seen in many other cars (manual vs tip) other than simply Porsche.

    2.) Boost pressure integration with VTGs through the PTM network (starting to get a headache with all this P-jargon) has been optimized for the first time to benefit the pre-boosting elements of auto-trannies.

    3.) PPM- also known as Porsche Profit Management deemed shipping off antiquated tiptronic hardware before complete industry transferance to sequential gearboxes. Management made the order imperative to the engineers!



    Prob is difficult to know what software changes mfrs do every few mths to Tip/F1/SpeedShift software....and impact on performance....obviously, mfrs often keep quiet re: some intra-MY refinements/enhancements to avoid irritating early buyers, who (except in case of F) are absorbing $50Kish one-yr deprec on a rapidly obsoleted car.....

    Most intriguing to me will be 60-150MPH accel of 997TT Tip vs SL65, esp in auto vs manual mode....same tranny w/different software and both high-tq biturbo motors w/turbo lag issues.....vs 599 w/NA high-tq motor and fast-shifting F1 tranny

    Doubt profit motive of keeping an ancient Tip makes much sense to P....in an era of just-in-time supply chains, lim inventory of parts is likely....and if PDK is indeed exceptional, P will be able to charge ?$10K for this option (rather than a mere <$4K for Tip), preserving or (likely) enhancing P profit margins vs archaic manual/Tip trannies......

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    Hurst said:

    I have a few theories:

    1.) Old generation tiptronics have been replaced by far more advance, performance oriented trannies. The narrowing of the gap can be seen in many other cars (manual vs tip) other than simply Porsche.

    2.) Boost pressure integration with VTGs through the PTM network (starting to get a headache with all this P-jargon) has been optimized for the first time to benefit the pre-boosting elements of auto-trannies.

    3.) PPM- also known as Porsche Profit Management deemed shipping off antiquated tiptronic hardware before complete industry transferance to sequential gearboxes. Management made the order imperative to the engineers!




    Points 1 and 2, I think, are 100% correct. Point 3 might be correct

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Most intriguing to me will be 60-150MPH accel of 997TT Tip vs SL65, esp in auto vs manual mode....



    I would expect the 997TT Tip to gain around 30m-50m (i.e. 1-2 seconds) on the SL65 in that speed range.

    In that speed range the TT will still benefit from its low weight. I would expect the SL65 to be competitive in the speed range above 150mph, however.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Hurst said:

    I have a few theories:

    1.) Old generation tiptronics have been replaced by far more advance, performance oriented trannies. The narrowing of the gap can be seen in many other cars (manual vs tip) other than simply Porsche.

    2.) Boost pressure integration with VTGs through the PTM network (starting to get a headache with all this P-jargon) has been optimized for the first time to benefit the pre-boosting elements of auto-trannies.

    3.) PPM- also known as Porsche Profit Management deemed shipping off antiquated tiptronic hardware before complete industry transferance to sequential gearboxes. Management made the order imperative to the engineers!




    Points 1 and 2, I think, are 100% correct. Point 3 might be correct



    Point 3 is a bit more eccentric, so to speak

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    A car with plentiful low-end torque will not benefit from gearing as much as a car with a higher end and narrow power band. One example is the 5spd Merc E55 accelerates as fast as the 7spd M5. Swap trannies, the Merc will not gain as much acceleration as the M5 will lose. That may explain why the 996tt had more penalty from the 5 spd.



    But the 997 Turbo Tip is also a 5 speed.
    They might be different gearboxes but they're both automatic (996 and 997).
    So why is the 996 Turb tip much slower than the manual and not the 997?

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    A car with plentiful low-end torque will not benefit from gearing as much as a car with a higher end and narrow power band. One example is the 5spd Merc E55 accelerates as fast as the 7spd M5. Swap trannies, the Merc will not gain as much acceleration as the M5 will lose. That may explain why the 996tt had more penalty from the 5 spd.



    But the 997 Turbo Tip is also a 5 speed.
    They might be different gearboxes but they're both automatic (996 and 997).
    So why is the 996 Turb tip much slower than the manual and not the 997?



    Yeah, I'm still not completely satisfied. The 997TT Tip transmission is only a slightly improved version of the 996TT transmission. Furthermore, VTG shouldn't even come into play at 4000-5000 rpm, where these cars will shift into a higher gear. Still, the best way to verify this would be to engine dyno two cars side-by-side and look for any deviances.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    A car with plentiful low-end torque will not benefit from gearing as much as a car with a higher end and narrow power band. One example is the 5spd Merc E55 accelerates as fast as the 7spd M5. Swap trannies, the Merc will not gain as much acceleration as the M5 will lose. That may explain why the 996tt had more penalty from the 5 spd.



    But the 997 Turbo Tip is also a 5 speed.
    They might be different gearboxes but they're both automatic (996 and 997).
    So why is the 996 Turb tip much slower than the manual and not the 997?



    In contrast to the 996TTS the 997TT does *not* benefit (significantly) from the 6th gear at high speeds. Acceleration times in my 996TTS are improved by shifting from 5th to 6th gear (vs. staying in 6th all the time) when accelerating above 200kph. In the 997TT you can employ the 6th all the time without reducing acceleration...

    The 997TT simply has more torque (in particular with SC active) and a different (i.e. broader) torque curve.

    That is the reason why the 997TT Tip is so much faster than the 996TT Tip above 200kph.

    Below 200kph the 997TT benefits from pre-charging and those new software features (networking...). Also, the speed of auto tranny gear changes has improved a lot recently. Just look at the 335i or recent AMG models. Their auto tranny shifts much quicker than in older models. Naturally, the benefit of shorter gear change times is quite visible below 200kph given the number of required gear changes relative to the total time that elapses until you reach 200kph.

    No magic involved, I think.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    A car with plentiful low-end torque will not benefit from gearing as much as a car with a higher end and narrow power band. One example is the 5spd Merc E55 accelerates as fast as the 7spd M5. Swap trannies, the Merc will not gain as much acceleration as the M5 will lose. That may explain why the 996tt had more penalty from the 5 spd.



    But the 997 Turbo Tip is also a 5 speed.
    They might be different gearboxes but they're both automatic (996 and 997).
    So why is the 996 Turb tip much slower than the manual and not the 997?



    In contrast to the 996TTS the 997TT does *not* benefit (significantly) from the 6th gear at high speeds. Acceleration times in my 996TTS are improved by shifting from 5th to 6th gear (vs. staying in 6th all the time) when accelerating above 200kph. In the 997TT you can employ the 6th all the time without reducing acceleration...

    The 997TT simply has more torque (in particular with SC active) and a different (i.e. broader) torque curve.

    That is the reason why the 997TT Tip is so much faster than the 996TT Tip above 200kph.

    Below 200kph the 997TT benefits from pre-charging and those new software features (networking...). Also, the speed of auto tranny gear changes has improved a lot recently. Just look at the 335i or recent AMG models. Their auto tranny shifts much quicker than in older models. Naturally, the benefit of shorter gear change times is quite visible below 200kph given the number of required gear changes relative to the total time that elapses until you reach 200kph.

    No magic involved, I think.



    Makes sense. But what's up with RC's information that they do actually use two different maps then?

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    A car with plentiful low-end torque will not benefit from gearing as much as a car with a higher end and narrow power band. One example is the 5spd Merc E55 accelerates as fast as the 7spd M5. Swap trannies, the Merc will not gain as much acceleration as the M5 will lose. That may explain why the 996tt had more penalty from the 5 spd.



    But the 997 Turbo Tip is also a 5 speed.
    They might be different gearboxes but they're both automatic (996 and 997).
    So why is the 996 Turb tip much slower than the manual and not the 997?



    In contrast to the 996TTS the 997TT does *not* benefit (significantly) from the 6th gear at high speeds. Acceleration times in my 996TTS are improved by shifting from 5th to 6th gear (vs. staying in 6th all the time) when accelerating above 200kph. In the 997TT you can employ the 6th all the time without reducing acceleration...




    My question was regarding the tiptronic versions of the 996 and 997.

    Both are 5 speeds auto trannys.

    Tranny aside, yes your explanation makes sense.
    But not the one from username Aclou.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Guys, of course the Tiptronic S used in the 997 Turbo is a newer and improved generation compared to the 996 Turbo Tiptronic, we discussed that before. This doesn't however explain why the 5-speed Tip is practically as fast as the 6-speed manual in the upper speed range above 200 kph (125 mph). The "more boost" claim btw. isn't just a guess of mine, it is a fact and yes, I "know something others don't know". Otherwise we wouldn't run this site, right?!

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Guys, of course the Tiptronic S used in the 997 Turbo is a newer and improved generation compared to the 996 Turbo Tiptronic, we discussed that before. This doesn't however explain why the 5-speed Tip is practically as fast as the 6-speed manual in the upper speed range above 200 kph (125 mph). The "more boost" claim btw. isn't just a guess of mine, it is a fact and yes, I "know something others don't know". Otherwise we wouldn't run this site, right?!



    I feel so... "vindicated" .

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    A car with plentiful low-end torque will not benefit from gearing as much as a car with a higher end and narrow power band. One example is the 5spd Merc E55 accelerates as fast as the 7spd M5. Swap trannies, the Merc will not gain as much acceleration as the M5 will lose. That may explain why the 996tt had more penalty from the 5 spd.



    But the 997 Turbo Tip is also a 5 speed.
    They might be different gearboxes but they're both automatic (996 and 997).
    So why is the 996 Turb tip much slower than the manual and not the 997?



    In contrast to the 996TTS the 997TT does *not* benefit (significantly) from the 6th gear at high speeds. Acceleration times in my 996TTS are improved by shifting from 5th to 6th gear (vs. staying in 6th all the time) when accelerating above 200kph. In the 997TT you can employ the 6th all the time without reducing acceleration...

    The 997TT simply has more torque (in particular with SC active) and a different (i.e. broader) torque curve.

    That is the reason why the 997TT Tip is so much faster than the 996TT Tip above 200kph.

    Below 200kph the 997TT benefits from pre-charging and those new software features (networking...). Also, the speed of auto tranny gear changes has improved a lot recently. Just look at the 335i or recent AMG models. Their auto tranny shifts much quicker than in older models. Naturally, the benefit of shorter gear change times is quite visible below 200kph given the number of required gear changes relative to the total time that elapses until you reach 200kph.

    No magic involved, I think.



    Makes sense. But what's up with RC's information that they do actually use two different maps then?



    That's why I inquired whether RC made the observations in a test or whether the info is from an insider

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Guys, of course the Tiptronic S used in the 997 Turbo is a newer and improved generation compared to the 996 Turbo Tiptronic, we discussed that before. This doesn't however explain why the 5-speed Tip is practically as fast as the 6-speed manual in the upper speed range above 200 kph (125 mph). The "more boost" claim btw. isn't just a guess of mine, it is a fact and yes, I "know something others don't know". Otherwise we wouldn't run this site, right?!



    Hi Master ( )!

    Do you think that Tip still has some inefficiencies at speeds above 200kph compared to the manual? Unfortunately, I do not know anything about gear box technology. However, I was under the impression that modern auto trannies are still not as efficient as manuals at lower speeds ("Wandlerschlupf", power slippage might be the right translation). However, at higher speeds, I thought, power slippage can be reduced to zero. That would imply that manual and Tip should offer identical performance IF they have the same gearing And gearing does not seem to matter in case of the 997TT given its torque curve...

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    Hurst said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Hurst said:

    I have a few theories:

    1.) Old generation tiptronics have been replaced by far more advance, performance oriented trannies. The narrowing of the gap can be seen in many other cars (manual vs tip) other than simply Porsche.

    2.) Boost pressure integration with VTGs through the PTM network (starting to get a headache with all this P-jargon) has been optimized for the first time to benefit the pre-boosting elements of auto-trannies.

    3.) PPM- also known as Porsche Profit Management deemed shipping off antiquated tiptronic hardware before complete industry transferance to sequential gearboxes. Management made the order imperative to the engineers!




    Points 1 and 2, I think, are 100% correct. Point 3 might be correct



    Point 3 is a bit more eccentric, so to speak



    I regard point 3 as cynically naive.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Faunch - MKSGR only reiterated what I had posted - that the broader torque band of the 997tt allows it to accelerate similarly whether using 5 or 6 gears.

    RC - unless a Porsche engineer will disclose this info I think your contention is B.S. on the programmed boost differential between the 2 models. If the tip model had more low end torque from enhanced boost, Porsche would be stupid not to brag about it, and there would be an entirely different dyno plot to show off as well. These cars were developed to reach certain performance envelopes. Would Porsche hold back the 6 spd using a less aggressive program intentionally? Especially with the performance envelope of the Z06 and F430 already looming high above? Unlikely

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    RC - unless a Porsche engineer will disclose this info I think your contention is B.S. on the programmed boost differential between the 2 models.



    Yeah...sure...I ask my source to post this with his full name and job title. Oh boy...

    Please explain this: why are there different software variants for different markets? So why do you denounce the existence of two differet mappings for manual and Tip?!

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    RC - unless a Porsche engineer will disclose this info I think your contention is B.S. on the programmed boost differential between the 2 models.



    Yeah...sure...I ask my source to post this with his full name and job title. Oh boy...

    Please explain this: why are there different software variants for different markets? So why do you denounce the existence of two differet mappings for manual and Tip?!



    RC, it's no use. There are more and more people coming here, thinking this is funcarsonline.com nowadays. Just let it go. It's hard for somebody, living 6000 miles away to comprehend that you actually might know something or somebody they don't.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Faunch - MKSGR only reiterated what I had posted - that the broader torque band of the 997tt allows it to accelerate similarly whether using 5 or 6 gears.

    RC - unless a Porsche engineer will disclose this info I think your contention is B.S. on the programmed boost differential between the 2 models.



    eclou! You make a lot of bold statements for someone who only signed up to Rennteam two months ago. The moderators and editors on this forum are pretty good about posting only factual information. That's what attract many users to our community. Maybe you should spend some time looking at older posts. I think you will find our information is accurate.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    I think I figured out why I'm going stick instead of tip although a few months ago I was leaning towards the tip. - After owning a 996 and now a 997 I'm finally getting pretty decent at shifting. For a while I didn't really have confidence or conviction shifting especially when downshifting sometimes hitting 5th when I wanted 3rd etc. At moderate speed's it's not an issue but when driving really aggressively my mechanics weren't solid. Even shifts from 6th to 4th or 5th to 3rd. But finally it's like,,,,,, I get it and man is it fun. It wasn't like I wasn't hitting the shifts before it's just now I can throw them with much more speed and hitting them into better/more efficient rpm ranges and I'm sure I'll only get better and better at it. Anyway, that's the most important reason for me in staying w/ the 6 speed, it's getting to be more and more fun.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    What kind of "fact" is RC's "deep throat" at Porsche? The fact that 0.1 bar boost levels differentials observed on 2 different gauges on 2 different cars with different gearing lead to the postulation that Porsche maps these cars differently is a non-sequitor. I doubt it and I have explained why. There is nothing bold about physics and engineering. The only thing that can be construed as bold is unsubstantiated heresay.

    I have pointing out the ubiquitous phenomenon of boost as it pertains to gearing and automatic transmissions. If any of you might recall the last generation Toyota Supra turbo was also faster as an automatic despite a non-networked mating of engine and transmission. Shocking? Confusing? Not really. Its just science - something that this board lacks.

    If you continue to believe that the tip has better low end, the only valid proof would be to dyno 2 cars back to back. The absolute numbers would be immaterial, it would the the shape of the curves that should show a higher tq peak or curve on the tip.

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 9/23/18 10:42 PM
    GaussM
    380036 4941
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA 9/24/18 10:53 AM
    RCA
    314254 1932
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 7/21/18 6:45 AM
    bluelines
     
     
     
     
     
    207109 1067
    Porsche Sticky 992 (Next 911 generation 2019/2020) 9/24/18 5:28 PM
    Enmanuel
    194802 2259
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 9/24/18 10:42 AM
    DaveGordon
    170636 2594
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 9/24/18 7:34 PM
    GaussM
    102021 2169
    AMG Sticky Mercedes E63 S AMG (2018) - Short Review (updated on a regular basis) 9/23/18 11:11 PM
    RCA
    28375 312
    Porsche Sticky Paint protection film 9/24/18 4:26 PM
    throt
    12238 110
    Porsche Sticky Child seats in a 991 6/18/18 8:51 PM
    Monkey
    12091 31
    Porsche 918 latest news Thread Closed 11/6/17 10:43 AM
    RCA
    608602 5574
    Porsche 991 GT3 RS 1/9/18 1:43 PM
    Kimi
    509641 5816
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S 4/3/18 9:15 AM
    KresoF1
    481261 4254
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 9/13/18 10:12 AM
    RCA
    272006 2589
    Porsche Cayman GT4 9/20/18 4:20 AM
    Grant
    253561 2542
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S 1/23/18 12:27 AM
    RCA
    189867 1074
    Ferrari 488 GTB/GTS 9/23/18 3:27 AM
    koko
    181795 1614
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 9/22/18 2:11 PM
    WhoopsyM
    171752 3144
    Porsche Boxster Spyder (981) 8/31/18 10:25 AM
    WAY
    141535 757
    Others Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016 model) - Review (updated Feb 13th 2017) 9/22/18 6:52 AM
    the-missile
    134231 2186
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 1/6/18 10:41 PM
    Wonderbar
    126229 1284
    Ferrari Ferrari F12 Berlinetta / 599 GTO Successor 5/22/18 9:16 PM
    RCA
    110736 789
    Others VW caught cheating emissions tests 5/3/18 7:52 PM
    CGX car nut
    105734 871
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 718 Boxster (2016) 10/20/17 11:17 AM
    DaveGordon
    98602 732
    Porsche Porsche Mission E - the future of Porsche? 9/10/18 2:35 PM
    SciFrog
    72982 923
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/29/18 8:40 PM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    64527 660
    Porsche UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne 2/6/18 2:13 PM
    RCA
    56508 423
    Lambo Huracán Performante in "6.52 something" at the Ring? 11/7/17 12:30 AM
    kingjr9000
    49640 852
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Carrera GTS models 11/29/17 12:27 PM
    DJM48
    45293 471
    Others Tesla Model X Thread Closed 2/23/18 3:41 PM
    RCA
    42440 1122
    AMG AMG GT R 1/26/18 7:19 AM
    GoHardGT3RS
    40654 597
    306 items found, displaying 1 to 30.