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    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Its Tiptronic super transmission is so efficient, that it's even faster than the manual and by quite a wide margin!



    I do not think that any longer

    P.S.: If future Tip tests result in better acceleration times I might change my view again. However, for the time being I do not think that Tip delivers better straight line acceleration



    Markus, re-read my post again and you'll see the tone with which the statement was made. Should've written: Its Tiptronic "super-duper" transmission is so efficient, that it's even faster than the manual and by quite a wide margin!

    This is the tone with which my post was meant to be read .

    The 0-200 time is a bit better for the Tip, but you wouldn't notice it at all. With all that extra torque it also better be faster.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Its Tiptronic super transmission is so efficient, that it's even faster than the manual and by quite a wide margin!



    I do not think that any longer

    P.S.: If future Tip tests result in better acceleration times I might change my view again. However, for the time being I do not think that Tip delivers better straight line acceleration



    Markus, re-read my post again and you'll see the tone with which the statement was made. Should've written: Its Tiptronic "super-duper" transmission is so efficient, that it's even faster than the manual and by quite a wide margin!

    This is the tone with which my post was meant to be read .

    The 0-200 time is a bit better for the Tip, but you wouldn't notice it at all. With all that extra torque it also better be faster.



    Uupppssss

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Here's the real secret Porsche doesn't want the "networked tiptronic" owners to know(otherwise, they shoot themselves):
    http://car-reviews.automobile.com/news/porsche-to-introduce-7-speed-dsg-gearbox/2008/

    Great quotes from the article:
    1) "But as good as their current cars are, Porsche has one weak point: its less-than-sporting automatic transmission."
    2) "Outselling the manual by quite a margin, this automatic gearbox was one of the first manual-shifted automatics on the market, and while it was heralded as excellent and ingenious in its day, the onset of newer, more advanced (and simply better) technology has left it in the proverbial dust."
    3) "Compared to the slow, jerky, and cumbersome Tiptronic gearbox, the DSG is light years ahead and miles better."
    4) "Expected to see duty in everything from the lowly (relatively) Cayman and Boxster models all the way up to the upcoming Carrera GT-based GT1 racecar, it turns out the development program is surprisingly far along, and Porsche apparently hoped to have had the gearbox completed for use in the new 911 Turbo."

    Seems to me like porsche might race with this new DSG transmission. That's a far-cry from the ancient "networked tiptronic" to say the least.

    Good luck to all those who bought into the "networked tiptronic" story porsche used as a marketing ploy to sell outdated transmissions in a world that has already gone light years ahead.

    F

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    So which one are you, a steer?


    Sure I'll be your steer, partner. I can guess which end of the horn you like to be on.





    LOL!! WOO WHOOO!!

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    Frank Tan said:
    Here's the real secret Porsche doesn't want the "networked tiptronic" owners to know(otherwise, they shoot themselves):
    http://car-reviews.automobile.com/news/porsche-to-introduce-7-speed-dsg-gearbox/2008/

    Great quotes from the article:
    1) "But as good as their current cars are, Porsche has one weak point: its less-than-sporting automatic transmission."
    2) "Outselling the manual by quite a margin, this automatic gearbox was one of the first manual-shifted automatics on the market, and while it was heralded as excellent and ingenious in its day, the onset of newer, more advanced (and simply better) technology has left it in the proverbial dust."
    3) "Compared to the slow, jerky, and cumbersome Tiptronic gearbox, the DSG is light years ahead and miles better."
    4) "Expected to see duty in everything from the lowly (relatively) Cayman and Boxster models all the way up to the upcoming Carrera GT-based GT1 racecar, it turns out the development program is surprisingly far along, and Porsche apparently hoped to have had the gearbox completed for use in the new 911 Turbo."

    Seems to me like porsche might race with this new DSG transmission. That's a far-cry from the ancient "networked tiptronic" to say the least.

    Good luck to all those who bought into the "networked tiptronic" story porsche used as a marketing ploy to sell outdated transmissions in a world that has already gone light years ahead.

    F


    Ok, there's really no doubt, the future DKSG (PDK) will be miles far away from the Tiptronic or the shifter. But it's reliably no contradiction to the FACT that two different mappings are available for manual and Tip!

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    Frank Tan said:
    Here's the real secret Porsche doesn't want the "networked tiptronic" owners to know(otherwise, they shoot themselves):
    http://car-reviews.automobile.com/news/porsche-to-introduce-7-speed-dsg-gearbox/2008/

    Great quotes from the article:
    1) "But as good as their current cars are, Porsche has one weak point: its less-than-sporting automatic transmission."
    2) "Outselling the manual by quite a margin, this automatic gearbox was one of the first manual-shifted automatics on the market, and while it was heralded as excellent and ingenious in its day, the onset of newer, more advanced (and simply better) technology has left it in the proverbial dust."
    3) "Compared to the slow, jerky, and cumbersome Tiptronic gearbox, the DSG is light years ahead and miles better."
    4) "Expected to see duty in everything from the lowly (relatively) Cayman and Boxster models all the way up to the upcoming Carrera GT-based GT1 racecar, it turns out the development program is surprisingly far along, and Porsche apparently hoped to have had the gearbox completed for use in the new 911 Turbo."

    Seems to me like porsche might race with this new DSG transmission. That's a far-cry from the ancient "networked tiptronic" to say the least.

    Good luck to all those who bought into the "networked tiptronic" story porsche used as a marketing ploy to sell outdated transmissions in a world that has already gone light years ahead.

    F




    I continue to read a lot of BS, stereotyping, and ego-macho-posturing in all of this. The cold fact is that the 997TT tip measures better than the manual. Even though a future DSG will be better from a transmission perspective, it may not be optimal for a turbo. The maligned torque converter can be used to advantage, taming the turbo lag of powerful turbos.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    ADias said:


    I continue to read a lot of BS, stereotyping, and ego-macho-posturing in all of this. The cold fact is that the 997TT tip measures better than the manual. Even though a future DSG will be better from a transmission perspective, it may not be optimal for a turbo. The maligned torque converter can be used to advantage, taming the turbo lag of powerful turbos.



    ..this is an very interesting point of view.
    As soon as the DSG is available, we will see the comparisons. I think however, most distribution will then contain DSG.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    Conny997 said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:


    I continue to read a lot of BS, stereotyping, and ego-macho-posturing in all of this. The cold fact is that the 997TT tip measures better than the manual. Even though a future DSG will be better from a transmission perspective, it may not be optimal for a turbo. The maligned torque converter can be used to advantage, taming the turbo lag of powerful turbos.



    ..this is an very interesting point of view.
    As soon as the DSG is available, we will see the comparisons. I think however, most distribution will then contain DSG.



    The pre-boosting of the Tip/torque converter could be applied to a double-clutch tranny, as well (with the ecu programmed to maintain rev's during gear change so the turbo's spool faster), so the turbo lag should be subsequently similarly decreased.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Pre-boosting of a motor can also be applied to a manual transmission car. There are alot of applications of this using a wasted-spark ignition system which allows near instantaneous boost off throttle.

    Unless I have missed something, there still has been no proof of differing boost and fuel maps for the tip.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    The pre-boosting of the Tip/torque converter could be applied to a double-clutch tranny, as well (with the ecu programmed to maintain rev's during gear change so the turbo's spool faster), so the turbo lag should be subsequently similarly decreased.



    I understand that, but wouldn't that require heavy clutch slipping with significant wear and tear? The tip's torque converter slips without wear.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    Conny997 said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:


    I continue to read a lot of BS, stereotyping, and ego-macho-posturing in all of this. The cold fact is that the 997TT tip measures better than the manual. Even though a future DSG will be better from a transmission perspective, it may not be optimal for a turbo. The maligned torque converter can be used to advantage, taming the turbo lag of powerful turbos.



    ..this is an very interesting point of view.
    As soon as the DSG is available, we will see the comparisons. I think however, most distribution will then contain DSG.



    I agree with you that once the DSG is out, it will be the tranny of choice, current turbo tip advantages notwithstanding.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    The pre-boosting of the Tip/torque converter could be applied to a double-clutch tranny, as well (with the ecu programmed to maintain rev's during gear change so the turbo's spool faster), so the turbo lag should be subsequently similarly decreased.



    I understand that, but wouldn't that require heavy clutch slipping with significant wear and tear? The tip's torque converter slips without wear.



    Yes, I agree, but the DSG would mitigate it.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Pre-boosting of a motor can also be applied to a manual transmission car. There are alot of applications of this using a wasted-spark ignition system which allows near instantaneous boost off throttle.

    Unless I have missed something, there still has been no proof of differing boost and fuel maps for the tip.



    I myself wondered "aloud" earlier this year why Porsche didn't pre-boost the 6-speed manual.

    And I'm sure with all the well-informed rennteamers here, SOMEBODY at some point will scan and post the ecu mapping for the TipS and manual on the 997TT.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    I think I trust the hard figures from Porsche more than the very subjective Automobile Magazine which only hires part-time writers to fill its magazine without proper testing equipment.

    My dealer tells me Porsche has under-estimated the demand for tiptronic 997TT and the tip model, at least in the North America, is definitely harder to get.

    Newer is not necessarily better, I for one would pick the MB 5-speed transmission in the SL55/SL65 over the new jerky SMG in the M5.

    I'll be picking up my 997TT tip within days and can give a comprehensive comparison to.. sorry only a 2004 E55 I owned.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    Crap, I'm losing my nerve - or becoming suddenly more patient. I'm inches away from a final decision to wait for PDK afterall.....

    I have an Audi A3 with DSG. It is my snowboard/trash hauler and rainy day errand car.

    More and more I'm reconizing PDK is what I want on my next Porsche. I'm old (46), and perhaps tired of shifting, tho it's fun on my 3 Porsches. My modified 993 turbo, with it's lag, then frantic acceleration to redline, requires more of me than my tracked-out, old brain wants to offer.

    If PDK is as good as DSG....gosh, I'm finding it very, very hard to resist, given my experience with my A3.

    Do you think there will be a "manual vs PDK" debate on these boards 3 years from now? Or, will the manual merely persist as an anachronism for the nostalgic?

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    On these boards? Yes.

    On Porsche orderbook however, manual will be relegated to marginal (ie <10%).

    I am in the same boat, I will not resist getting the PDK TT when it comes out. So I am holding off.

    Re: The "secret" about Manual vs. Tip performance?

    If Porsche really has mapped the Tip differently so as to make it faster, then they're full of crap. They say they are built upon a hertiage of racing and motorsports, but then they offer an automatic tranny equipped car (their flagship car no less) that is "faster" (that's their hype anyways) than the manually equipped car, and its all due to cleverly concealed digital code (ie. smoke and mirrors), all the while, screwing over the true enthusiast, since a true enthisuast would be more likely to be interested in a manual. Profit alone can be the only explanation. Another example (albeit a small one) of how PAG is full of it.

    I'm starting to lose some respect for PAG, and while this has been building for a few months, the GT3 sunroof issue has really cemented it in the last few days. I can't forgive them for not offering the sport suspension and LSD on the North American Carrera or Cayman either. This is one more straw on the camel's back.

     
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