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    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Crash, most of the illegals are nicer than the people who they work for.

    So I suggest a swap!

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Jeff, if its govenment mandate they could provide the car manufacturers with immunity against these type of lawsuits. There is precedent for this.

    BTW, assuming there wasn't any immunity, if the DE could save one life wouldn't it be worth it? Any argument by a car manufacturer about cost would not be received well by a jury.

    hi nick,

    i see what you are saying and think any additional training offered would be a step in the right direction,
    i just don't see how it would be determined which cars needed additional training and which didnt, along with how much.
    also, as les had said it would take a lot more than one pde to teach someone how to drive the cgt well.
    so, in the end, it looks like this would be something oem's did just for liability reasons more than to
    actually teaching somebody to safely handle an automobile.

    best,
    jeff

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    MKW said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    @MKW Your premise has one error. You assume that hazardous drivers have drivers licenses!





    Here in California, LOTS of our drivers wouldn't be able to get a first driver's license anyway , as they entered our fair state " unofficially " from south of the border .



    I think its time to shut this thread since it is now political. Illegals only from south of the border? Who have you been listening too? KFI or KABC Talkradio? Half the illegals come through the airport and do not only speak Spanish or have brown skin. PLUS, YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW MANY CHILDREN OF ILLEGALS DRIVE PORSCHES. This is a sports car board and no room for political comments, period.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Jeff, if its govenment mandate they could provide the car manufacturers with immunity against these type of lawsuits. There is precedent for this.

    BTW, assuming there wasn't any immunity, if the DE could save one life wouldn't it be worth it? Any argument by a car manufacturer about cost would not be received well by a jury.



    If we could save 43,000 lives a year in the U.S. by eliminating driving altogether, wouldn't it be worth it?

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Jeff, if its govenment mandate they could provide the car manufacturers with immunity against these type of lawsuits. There is precedent for this.

    BTW, assuming there wasn't any immunity, if the DE could save one life wouldn't it be worth it? Any argument by a car manufacturer about cost would not be received well by a jury.



    If we could save 43,000 lives a year in the U.S. by eliminating driving altogether, wouldn't it be worth it?



    We could save another 1000 lives by eliminating electrical
    cords used in suicides, another 1000 from outlawing garden hoses used for the same reason and perhaps another 25 lives by eliminating Al Frankens radio show.

    You could also disassemble Nicks argument for required training by class and race. Analyze buyer demographics and
    it would be easy to denounce the scheme as benefiting a
    disproportionate number of rich and probably mostly white
    consumers.

    Or what about buyers who do not retain or cant adapt the knowledge provided? Or those that had a off day behind the wheel? Or those that bought the car used, loaned it to a friend or got it as a Studio perk?

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Crash, most of the illegals are nicer than the people who they work for.

    So I suggest a swap!



    No, I know that, but I'm talking solely on principle.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW, assuming there wasn't any immunity, if the DE could save one life wouldn't it be worth it? Any argument by a car manufacturer about cost would not be received well by a jury.



    This coming from someone who doesn't even flinch at the idea that in the year 2006, the maker of his his new $100k+ car w/ 500HP didn't feel like spending the R&D on side airbags (which are proven to save not one life but thousands), not even as an option... oh, the hipocresy...




    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    I never understood how a person who came into the US illegally could call Americans ungrateful for not caring about their contribution. That's like me washing your car without you asking me and then demanding payment.




    Uhh...I guess you haven't lived in big cities where " underpriviledged youth " walk up to your car at a stoplight or especially after a freeway off ramp , wipe your windshield w/o your permission a couple times with a muddy squeegie , then demand payment ( or your life ) for services rendered !


    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW, assuming there wasn't any immunity, if the DE could save one life wouldn't it be worth it? Any argument by a car manufacturer about cost would not be received well by a jury.



    This coming from someone who doesn't even flinch at the idea that in the year 2006, the maker of his his new $100k+ car w/ 500HP didn't feel like spending the R&D on side airbags (which are proven to save not one life but thousands), not even as an option... oh, the hipocresy...



    Carlos my position is all manufacturers must comply including Ferrari.

    The issue deals with risk/benefit. Outlawing driving will far outweigh the envitable accidents/injuries.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    MKW said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    I never understood how a person who came into the US illegally could call Americans ungrateful for not caring about their contribution. That's like me washing your car without you asking me and then demanding payment.




    Uhh...I guess you haven't lived in big cities where " underpriviledged youth " walk up to your car at a stoplight or especially after a freeway off ramp , wipe your windshield w/o your permission a couple times with a muddy squeegie , then demand payment ( or your life ) for services rendered !





    I'm all for gun control and helping the underprivileged, but in this case, Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson would probably do the talking for me.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW, assuming there wasn't any immunity, if the DE could save one life wouldn't it be worth it? Any argument by a car manufacturer about cost would not be received well by a jury.



    This coming from someone who doesn't even flinch at the idea that in the year 2006, the maker of his his new $100k+ car w/ 500HP didn't feel like spending the R&D on side airbags (which are proven to save not one life but thousands), not even as an option... oh, the hipocresy...



    Carlos my position is all manufacturers must comply including Ferrari.

    The issue deals with risk/benefit. Outlawing driving will far outweigh the envitable accidents/injuries.



    Lets see, driver training for a exclusive group of people who drive a limited edition supercar or side airbags in most of the model range Ferrari offers at no cheap price either, which has a better risk/benefit ratio? and which is even easier to do (were do you draw the line on which car needs training, how about the rights of the drivers to drive a car if they have a valid drivers license like anyone else, what about thousands and thousands of sportbikes which are even harder and more dangerous to drive, what about the manufacturers and their sales losses, what about the imposibility of many owners to has access to the driver training due to were they live, etc, etc)? seems to me to be a hipocritical position, before you worry about a lesser issue on other people's driving, worry about a greater issue on your own car. Until you do, your altruistic stand towards safety seems quite thin.

    Further more, if you want makers to offer driving courses and your motivations are unbiased and true, start by the makers who offer close to none like again your own maker. Porsche offers more sportcar driver training than any other sportcar maker I can think of.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Plus.. 100s of CGTs were obtained by independent dealers who sat on these cars and sold them to the highest bidders... How and to who would Porsche require a training courses in those cases?

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    icon said:

    i guess the boss changed his mind?:)



    Jeff, as long as we don't discuss the lawsuit itself, this is OK to us. And we really shouldn't because it could "harm" one of the involved parties and I don't want that.

    But of course nobody can deny that the lawsuit stirred up some emotions and we need to say what we think about blaming manufacturers or generally the risk involved with driving high power sportscars.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW, assuming there wasn't any immunity, if the DE could save one life wouldn't it be worth it? Any argument by a car manufacturer about cost would not be received well by a jury.



    This coming from someone who doesn't even flinch at the idea that in the year 2006, the maker of his his new $100k+ car w/ 500HP didn't feel like spending the R&D on side airbags (which are proven to save not one life but thousands), not even as an option... oh, the hipocresy...



    You have a good point, but technology is always introduced at a certain pace and not on all cars in the lineup for any manufacturers...

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    I can't believe we are talking about this again.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    You have a good point, but technology is always introduced at a certain pace and not on all cars in the lineup for any manufacturers...



    You'll find side airbags on an italian $15k Fiat punto...

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    You have a good point, but technology is always introduced at a certain pace and not on all cars in the lineup for any manufacturers...



    You'll find side airbags on an italian $15k Fiat punto...



    I think there are some drivers who ARE a airbag.

    Sheeesh.. someone call the DNA police and start saving everyone from everything. Fate is fate.

    So after mandatory DE for sports car dilletantes proves to have no effect, whats next step - 100kph speed limiters?

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    This just proves my point, they needed to recertify the whole car everywhere in the world just for 06, they didn't bother cause they din't have to.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    This just proves my point, they needed to recertify the whole car everywhere in the world just for 06, they didn't bother cause they din't have to.



    They should've introduced the side airbags when the car came out. It came out in late 2003 if I'm not mistaken? A $20.000 VW Passat had side airbags as standard equipment in 1997. Ferrari have NO excuse.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    I live in Luxemburg and it happens like this:if you get your driving licence,they tell you it's not defenitif.After 18 months of real world driving you MUST do a driving training.It's not some sort of test you must pass but you must do the training,otherwise you won't have a driving licence anymore.
    They tell you how dangerous alcohol is,why speed limits are important,safety distances,shocking images,...that's the theory and then there's the practic:learn to brake as hard as you can if have ABS,learn how to brake without ABS,braking tests(at 30km/h you stop right before the "waal" of water,at 35km/h you hit the "wall" of water),learn how to counter steer,learn how to avoid obstacles,slaloms,cornering,comparo between used and new tires,...really the whole program and much more than I've listed.
    I think this training has being made mandatory 7-8 years ago.

    Here's a link,it's in french: http://www.cfc.lu/autoobli.htm

    Are there less (fatal)accidents in Luxemburg now? NO.

    Now,I'm very sure that a training will not teach people how to drive a sports car at 10/10.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    MKW said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    I never understood how a person who came into the US illegally could call Americans ungrateful for not caring about their contribution. That's like me washing your car without you asking me and then demanding payment.




    Uhh...I guess you haven't lived in big cities where " underpriviledged youth " walk up to your car at a stoplight or especially after a freeway off ramp , wipe your windshield w/o your permission a couple times with a muddy squeegie , then demand payment ( or your life ) for services rendered !





    I have lived in the second largest US city all my life and have driven in all types of neighborhoods at all hours of the day and night with both German and Japanese cars and have never had "underpriviledged youth" demand anything. But then maybe it was my attitude or maybe I was not driving a turbo.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    This just proves my point, they needed to recertify the whole car everywhere in the world just for 06, they didn't bother cause they din't have to.



    They should've introduced the side airbags when the car came out. It came out in late 2003 if I'm not mistaken? A $20.000 VW Passat had side airbags as standard equipment in 1997. Ferrari have NO excuse.



    Crash, you're being too hard on our Italian pals re: safety....it's part of the "passion" of a high-risk, high-reward sportscar to have a manly lack of overly technical safety systems, not all these prissy crumple zones/many advanced airbag systems/cautious fuel tank placement nonsense those "clinical" P's have

    Besides, how would F sell enough of those optional nifty, leather-bound fire extinguishers (and one can even specify the stitching color/thickness, too ) if its cars were overly clinical and GT-ish...and less flammable????

    Also, the FXX program is prob partly intended to allow more crash-testing data gathering as well, as part of F's relentless focus on safety of its valued customers....

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKW said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    @MKW Your premise has one error. You assume that hazardous drivers have drivers licenses!





    Here in California, LOTS of our drivers wouldn't be able to get a first driver's license anyway , as they entered our fair state " unofficially " from south of the border .



    Build a wall and throw them out. I never understood how a person who came into the US illegally could call Americans ungrateful for not caring about their contribution. That's like me washing your car without you asking me and then demanding payment.
    Oh, and once you throw them out, build a wall and post minutemen with .50 cals all over the southern border. Should make for some interesting news reports.



    Where are the moderators? Why are we allowing politcal BS to be on this board? Comments from both MKW and Crash are inappropiate. In fact, I find them highly offensive. If they want to talk about illegal immigration in the US, then take it to a political board. I thought this board was about sports cars? Why does this BS about illegal immigration and the talks of .50 caliber bullets?/guns? allow to remain on this board?

    I am sorry RC, Ron, Carlos, and any other moderator on this board, but this should not be on Rennteam at all.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Quote:
    MKW said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    I never understood how a person who came into the US illegally could call Americans ungrateful for not caring about their contribution. That's like me washing your car without you asking me and then demanding payment.




    Uhh...I guess you haven't lived in big cities where " underpriviledged youth " walk up to your car at a stoplight or especially after a freeway off ramp , wipe your windshield w/o your permission a couple times with a muddy squeegie , then demand payment ( or your life ) for services rendered !





    I have lived in the second largest US city all my life and have driven in all types of neighborhoods at all hours of the day and night with both German and Japanese cars and have never had "underpriviledged youth" demand anything. But then maybe it was my attitude or maybe I was not driving a turbo.



    Perhaps MKW was having '80s flashbacks as he cited that example ....if I recall correctly, the squeegee phenom was more of a NYC issue in '80s, esp at bridge/tunnel entry/exits to Manhattan, where cars often stack up for 40 mins+ in crawl mode...(my elders tell me those same places had "tunnel bunnies" who would offer to service other needs during the wait as well )...

    If I recall, LA's affluent had more of a notable carjacking issue, even on Westside back in '80s.

    Would argue major US urban regions today (esp NYC, Chic, SF and LA) are incredibly safe/civilized, w/much quicker commutes for affluent, vs 15 yrs+ ago when they had darker times in the urban core.....

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKW said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    @MKW Your premise has one error. You assume that hazardous drivers have drivers licenses!





    Here in California, LOTS of our drivers wouldn't be able to get a first driver's license anyway , as they entered our fair state " unofficially " from south of the border .



    Build a wall and throw them out. I never understood how a person who came into the US illegally could call Americans ungrateful for not caring about their contribution. That's like me washing your car without you asking me and then demanding payment.
    Oh, and once you throw them out, build a wall and post minutemen with .50 cals all over the southern border. Should make for some interesting news reports.



    Where are the moderators? Why are we allowing politcal BS to be on this board? Comments from both MKW and Crash are inappropiate. In fact, I find them highly offensive. If they want to talk about illegal immigration in the US, then take it to a political board. I thought this board was about sports cars? Why does this BS about illegal immigration and the talks of .50 caliber bullets?/guns? allow to remain on this board?

    I am sorry RC, Ron, Carlos, and any other moderator on this board, but this should not be on Rennteam at all.



    Then go write a letter to your congressman, expressing your desire to keep all twelve million in the US, I don't care. I'm expressing my opinions as they were formed by talking to Americans who live there, so I didn't think I was stepping on anyone's toes, but of those who use those imigrants as cheap labor.

    Also, the .50 cal Minutemen comment was definitely meant as a joke, but as you didn't get it, I withdraw that comment - wasn't meant as it being used to actually shoot at immigrants, but as a reference to a funny thread in the Sports car section. If you did not detect sarcasm in my response, I apologize for hurting your feelings. I'll add a smiley next time.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    I am sorry RC, Ron, Carlos, and any other moderator on this board, but this should not be on Rennteam at all.



    So you're not a big fan of "Mind of Mencia" (Comedy Central) right? This is actually one of my favorite comedy shows in US TV.
    I don't think that politics can always been excluded from discussions but I actually don't see anything wrong with it. Well...maybe you're right...this is a car forum but sometimes you have to cut people a little bit of slack, especially when they discuss serious matters like the "aftermath" of Ben's tragic death.

    I think it is really time for an off-topic forum, one which can be accessed (writing and READING) by logged in members only. We're working on it, promised.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    I am sorry RC, Ron, Carlos, and any other moderator on this board, but this should not be on Rennteam at all.



    So you're not a big fan of "Mind of Mencia" (Comedy Central) right? This is actually one of my favorite comedy shows in US TV.
    I don't think that politics can always been excluded from discussions but I actually don't see anything wrong with it. Well...maybe you're right...this is a car forum but sometimes you have to cut people a little bit of slack, especially when they discuss serious matters like the "aftermath" of Ben's tragic death.

    I think it is really time for an off-topic forum, one which can be accessed (writing and READING) by logged in members only. We're working on it, promised.



    Which is exactly my point RC. What does the talk of illegal immigration or I should say illegal Mexican immigration have to do with a thread on the Carrera GT lawsuit?

    This is a very hot topic in Southern California where it is constantly being debated on the radio and it has gotten to be very ugly. And this has been a hot topic since the 1820s when illegal immigration caused Mexico to lose Texas.

    RC, you said in previous posts that we are an international community of Porsche devotees which include Mexican nationals and Americans of Mexican descent. The comments are not appropriate for this forum and especially on a thread on Ben's death and the resulting lawsuit.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    I am sorry RC, Ron, Carlos, and any other moderator on this board, but this should not be on Rennteam at all.



    So you're not a big fan of "Mind of Mencia" (Comedy Central) right? This is actually one of my favorite comedy shows in US TV.
    I don't think that politics can always been excluded from discussions but I actually don't see anything wrong with it. Well...maybe you're right...this is a car forum but sometimes you have to cut people a little bit of slack, especially when they discuss serious matters like the "aftermath" of Ben's tragic death.

    I think it is really time for an off-topic forum, one which can be accessed (writing and READING) by logged in members only. We're working on it, promised.



    Which is exactly my point RC. What does the talk of illegal immigration or I should say illegal Mexican immigration have to do with a thread on the Carrera GT lawsuit?

    This is a very hot topic in Southern California where it is constantly being debated on the radio and it has gotten to be very ugly. And this has been a hot topic since the 1820s when illegal immigration caused Mexico to lose Texas.

    RC, you said in previous posts that we are an international community of Porsche devotees which include Mexican nationals and Americans of Mexican descent. The comments are not appropriate for this forum and especially on a thread on Ben's death and the resulting lawsuit.



    Since this is a "hot topic", should we not talk about it?

    I don't care if one is here illegally here from Mexico or Canada or where-ever. If laws are broken, prosecute, and serve time or pay fines. Whatever the law allows. But don't hide the discussion because it's a little too sensitive for you. About 90% of my friends and colleagues are pretty upset about the current situation. Some of these are from other countries who are now citizens, or are in the process of obtaining citizenship the legal way. They are extremely upset about how a large group of illegal immigrants are trying to get around the legal system to obtain citizenship.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Its obvious the US economy needs the Mexican workers and that they need the jobs.

    So why not just issue them work permits at the border, let them use Mexican or get local drivers licenses and bring them into the mainstream.

    As for granting citizenship, that should be handled seperately.

    Let them stay, work, send their money home and do whatever. Its not as if they arrive in the US and dont work. They are very hard working, have a nice family oriented culture and they are also very friendly.

    Re: Carrera GT Lawsuit Against Ben - This is Wrong !!

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:


    Since this is a "hot topic", should we not talk about it?

    I don't care if one is here illegally here from Mexico or Canada or where-ever. If laws are broken, prosecute, and serve time or pay fines. Whatever the law allows. But don't hide the discussion because it's a little too sensitive for you. About 90% of my friends and colleagues are pretty upset about the current situation. Some of these are from other countries who are now citizens, or are in the process of obtaining citizenship the legal way. They are extremely upset about how a large group of illegal immigrants are trying to get around the legal system to obtain citizenship.


    Not sensitive but since this will not go away...
    1) Why is there no employer enforcement and sanctions? Last year there was how many employer sanctions? Was the number zero? Big business is a big supporter of the illegals. Get rid of the jobs and presto, no more problem.
    2) Half of the illegals come through the airport. Every other country in this world knows which aliens are in their country but not the US.
    3) If this is all concerning US security, why are the Minuteman not at the Canadian border also? The Canadian border has had verified threats where the Mexican border has not.
    4) With a country so close to us and part of our history, why cannot their citizens legally immigrate here? At least with other countries, you can get on the list and wait your turn to immigrate here. Why not the same with our closest neighbor?
    5) And this business that they do not assimilate is hogwash. Every generation that has come here has had issues. Did you know their were at least five different states that had more than one official language? We all know or should know that California was officially an English/Spanish state when it was admitted to the Union. Its official business was in English and Spanish for the first thirty years. Texas and a mid-western state included several different European languages as their official languages because they had large concentration of immigrants for those countries.
    6) We are the largest superpower in the world, yet we can not stop a family with children from just walking across the border?

    And ask your friends that immigrated here how many of them took short cuts to get here? How many are on a H1B visas or started with student visas?

    And again my original question: Why this discussion on a thread about a Carrera GT crash?

     
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