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    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    JoeRockhead said:
    Quote:
    184692 said:
    Porsche would do the same.


    Porsche wouldn't have done something that stupid in the first place.



    Let's not jump to the conclusion just yet, may be Nissan didn't lie

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    franki68 said:
    Isn't it irrelevant ? The NIssan has beaten the 997tt on every track that every magazine has tested it on,I think Porsche are actually embarrassing themselves with this.Every road test has preferred the gtr to the 997tt,surely Porsche should be addressing this issue by improving the 997tt and not sulking about it.



    This is an inconvenient truth that some people prefer to ignore: The GTR laps faster than the Turbo in all independent tests.




    except the ones not done by magazines with agendas. Everyone forgets the C&D One Lap results. Tony Swan managed a blistering 2:35 pace at Texas World Speedway. TWS is a high speed 2.9 mile course that favors HP cars. Swan, a perennial One Lap veteran and semi-pro, was 40+ seconds per lap slower than my best time in a 997tt and 35+ seconds slower than my best time in a 944 turbo. That is real world testing by myself - no financial ties to Nissan or Porsche, and average hobbyist driving skills at best. That is what I would call an extremely inconvenient truth for the Nissan apologists.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    184692 said:
    Quote:
    JoeRockhead said:
    Quote:
    184692 said:
    Porsche would do the same.


    Porsche wouldn't have done something that stupid in the first place.



    Let's not jump to the conclusion just yet, may be Nissan didn't lie



    True, but people who aren't lying don't typically try to work out compromises:

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=480873&an=0&page=0#480873

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    franki68 said:
    Isn't it irrelevant ? The NIssan has beaten the 997tt on every track that every magazine has tested it on,I think Porsche are actually embarrassing themselves with this.Every road test has preferred the gtr to the 997tt,surely Porsche should be addressing this issue by improving the 997tt and not sulking about it.



    This is an inconvenient truth that some people prefer to ignore: The GTR laps faster than the Turbo in all independent tests.



    Lapping as fast as the turbo (for 1-2 laps before the GTR falls apart) just proves that Nissan is cheating with the claimed 7.29. The 997TT did the NBR in 7.52 (most recent Sportauto data), if the Nissan is 1, 2 or even 3 seconds faster, the Nissan claims are still BS. Nissan = Cheaters

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    For those still enamored and blinded by that shameful 7:29 claim: The ring is used so often by so many companies that, while impossible to pin point how a car will do, there is a range that one could guess based on power, type of car (street/race vs. pure race), weight (GTR= very heavy 3800-3900), etc., etc.

    Based on the Sport Auto drive on a partially wet track, and on the GTR's weight, and the fact that it does not have a pure race suspension/tire, 7:45 for the GT-R is reasonable if it's a good car sample, 7:38 is pushing it big time--even if assuming power is higher than 485, and 7:29 is a cheating fantasy. The lie is not that Nissan didn't do it, but that it did it with a car that has nothing in common with stock. It puzzles me so much, because claiming 7:45 would have been a huge victory for Nissan already (questions about gear box aside). Not many 80k car does 7:45. Nissan was too greedy and we all know greed = stupidity.

    Bottom line? Fast and technologically advanced? Yes. But heavy, ugly, and I predict many future problems with the transmission. By throwing power at weight (very poor engineering - the result of what happens when the engineers' only vision is the tail light of the Turbo), the car needs beefier components, but since it is built on a budget, that may not have been done properly. Anyone having doubt, please go to this site and watch the drama unfolding: http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=25361

    Every discussion of the GT-R should begin and end with its weight (besides the ugliness), with the fact that it's built "on a budget" in the middle of the discussion , because this car's stupendous weight is the source its problems/weaknesses.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    This 'budget component issue' is what scares me about the change to the pdk and new DI engine on our side too.
    Needless to say, glad I got my GT1 and G50 tranny!

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    I think I'll just keep my eyes on this post-->Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating
    It's interesting to read

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    If what we are hearing about GT-R's transmission is correct, then it is like telling a well endowed guy that if he does it then it would render him impotent. LOL

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Here's additional reading on the reliabilty side of the GTR as posted on North American GTR owners club. Seems all is not well in customer satisfaction.

    http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=25361&st=0

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time


    "NISSAN GT-R TEST PROCEDURES

    In light of comments made recently in the media concerning the testing of the Nissan GT-R, it is clear that there are some important facts that were not accurately represented.

    Background

    * On September 24, 2007 the Nissan GT-R recorded a lap time of the Nordschleife circuit at Germany's Nurburgring of seven minutes and 38 seconds. This lap time was completed in weather conditions that the Nissan test team knew would not show the full potential of the car.

    * On April 17, 2008 the Nissan test team was back at the Nurburgring and recorded a new lap time of seven minutes and 29 seconds, several times.

    * For all testing at the Nurburgring and other circuits such as Sendai Highlands in Japan, the GT-R development team used production specification vehicles with production specification tyres. These tests are part of the extensive performance and durability program undertaken before, during and after the commercial introduction of the GT-R.

    * The GT-R is a world-class supercar developed to be sold in multiple global markets. While specifications can differ across the various markets, the cars used to record both Nurburgring lap times were identical to the Japanese market production specification cars.

    * For the April 2008 test, the GT-R carried an additional 50kg of weight due to the Marelli data recorder and video camera equipment. In addition, the test was witnessed by 'Best Motoring' magazine from Japan who reported the test in their July 2008 issue, which included a DVD program of the session.

    * Nissan records the lap times around the Nurburgring using the same methodology and measuring locations as Sport Auto Magazine in Germany. Sport Auto Magazine provides the most consistent and objective measurement of lap times around the Nurburgring, allowing accurate comparisons between different vehicles.

    * In both timed lap sessions at the Nurburgring, chief test driver and professional racing driver, Toshio Suzuki was at the wheel. Suzuki has been the chief test driver on the GT-R program throughout the vehicle's development.

    Tyres

    The GT-R offers two different tyre choices for customers:
    * Bridgestone POTENZA RE070R
    * Dunlop SP SPORT 600 DSST CTT

    * For the tests conducted at the Nurburgring where the lap times of 7:38 and 7:29 were recorded, the Dunlop tyres were used. The tyres - which are designed for high performance driving in the dry and wet - used in the tests were identical to the production specification tires available to GT-R customers.

    * In June, 2008 Dunlop Japan issued a press release announcing that their tires had been used by Nissan to record the 7:29 lap time. The release can be accessed in Japanese and English at:
    NISSAN GT-R‚É'*'...‚3‚ê‚1/2Z_Z"ZZbZv‚Ì‚
    http://www3.srigroup.co.jp/CACHE/new...bj144_2008.cfm

    * For any media interested in seeing the actual tyres used at the test (7:29 lap time), they should contact the Public Relations Department at Sumitomo Rubber Industries, Ltd. in Japan. The contact email is t-hashimoto.by@srigroup.co.jp or +81 3 5546 0113

    Driving the GT-R

    * Consistent with industry benchmarking practices, we are aware that several auto makers have purchased the GT-R for their own testing and evaluation. Like all GT-R customers, we recommend that any auto maker buying a GT-R should follow the recommended run-in procedures, service schedules and maintenance to ensure the maximum performance from their car.

    * In addition, we offer performance driving courses for prospective and current GT-R owners to help them get the best performance from their car. We would welcome the opportunity to help any auto manufacturer with understanding the full capabilities of the GT-R.

    Remarks

    From Kazutoshi Mizuno, Chief Vehicle Engineer and Chief Product Specialist for GT-R:

    "We have used circuits like the Nurburgring and Sendai extensively during the development of the GT-R. The fastest lap-time was never the objective but a simple parameter for us to measure the GT-R in a consistent way against other world class supercars."

    "Testing a car with specialized parts such as unique tires or suspension has no meaning for us. The GT-R was designed from the start to be a supercar that could be driven anywhere, anytime and by anyone. For us, testing the car in standard production specification is far more relevant than creating a one-off vehicle that our customers cannot buy."


    Conclusion

    Due to the weather conditions at the Nurburgring, testing has now stopped and will resume around April 2009. Nissan will be back at the Nurburgring testing both the standard GT-R and upcoming additional models. We look forward to welcoming more members of the media to join us for these test sessions, consistent with our transparency at previous test sessions."

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Thanks AUM, very informative!

    Do you represent Nissan in Germany?

    or you are just a defender of the truth?

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    >>>>>>>>>
    http://www.rennteam.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=480904&page=0&vc=1
    Firstly we found that a japanese spec GT-R was quite noticeably quicker than a US-spec GT-R, also from within a batch of 12 US spec GT-Rs when lapped around Silverstone's GP circuit they were not all equal.
    >>>>>>>>>

    There simply is no more credibility or usefulness out of various power curve discussions of this car. It's pointless because the Nissan is the first car that comes with CVPD (CONTINOUSLY VARIABLE POWER DELIVERY).

    Imagine that, buying this car is like getting into a lottery. To me, it's lies, excuses, explanations, and more lies. I think that unlike the Corvette and the Turbo, which have more or less evolutionary changes over the years and have been carefully studied, the Nissan GT-R is a totally different car from its previous versions. So much heavier and so different, and the engineering team under so much pressure to be cheap ("on a budget") and fast that they did not do their homework with longevity and reliability, and most importantly, engines not meeting specs are simply stuffed into the cars and sold as is.

    I could sum up all the ink wasted on this car with one line: fast, but heavy and cheap, and unreliable. It's the gullible consumers who could not see past the word "faster" who are paying the price here.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    All people here post about good AND bad aspects of the Porche Turbo. It's not a perfect car by any stretch of imaginatioin.

    AUM has an interesting pattern of posting ONLY the bad news. I have been wondering for a while what his hidden agenda is.

    Quote:
    reginos said:
    Thanks AUM, very informative!

    Do you represent Nissan in Germany?

    or you are just a defender of the truth?


    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    All people here post about good AND bad aspects of the Porche Turbo. It's not a perfect car by any stretch of imaginatioin.

    AUM has an interesting pattern of posting ONLY the bad news. I have been wondering for a while what his hidden agenda is.

    Quote:
    reginos said:
    Thanks AUM, very informative!

    Do you represent Nissan in Germany?

    or you are just a defender of the truth?





    I am not a GTR fan although I do appreciate its performance. I am a Turbo owner who is interested in the truth. Some comments in this and other GTR threads make Porsche owners and fans sound immature and insecure.

    The GTR laps faster than the Turbo. Get over it and ask more of Porsche.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    cannga said:
    All people here post about good AND bad aspects of the Porche Turbo. It's not a perfect car by any stretch of imaginatioin.

    AUM has an interesting pattern of posting ONLY the bad news. I have been wondering for a while what his hidden agenda is.

    Quote:
    reginos said:
    Thanks AUM, very informative!

    Do you represent Nissan in Germany?

    or you are just a defender of the truth?





    I am not a GTR fan although I do appreciate its performance. I am a Turbo owner who is interested in the truth. Some comments in this and other GTR threads make Porsche owners and fans sound immature and insecure.

    The GTR laps faster than the Turbo. Get over it and ask more of Porsche.



    Thanks for the clarification!

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    The GTR laps faster than the Turbo. Get over it and ask more of Porsche.


    Why ask Porsche for more when you know what the answer will be?

    Porsche marketing dept want to keep the Turbo as a GT car. And the Porsche finance dept want to keep cutting corners and make as much money as possible on each car that they can get away with (eg. bottom of the range Bilstein dampeners on the Turbo unlike the top of the range Bilstein's fitted to the GT-R or AM DBS)

    If you want 'more' then you either have to pay for it by buying a different model such as a GT2 or go the after-market route and void your (again over-priced) Porsche warranty.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Please calm down. I believe in your search for the truth. However I don't think you've answered my questions:

    1. The purpose of a forum is to share information. It's not for someone to go and dump only one dimensional posts. Why are your posts only (emphasis on "only") about how bad the 997 Turbo is faring?

    2. You are a little vague about which Turbo you own. Which one please? Don't you own a 996 Turbo? If so, why go to a forum about a car you don't own, 997 Turbo, and post only one dimensional posts about how bad it is? The point is, it's ok to share "good news" and "bad news." Why are you being a one dimensional "bad news bear"?

    It's a free world, you could do what pleases you, and I am just another lowly poster, not a mod. But... I am "concerned" about your behavior. It's unhealthy. This will be my last post on this subject as it is so off topic. Please do think about what you are doing.

    Now back to your search for the truth. How could I disagree with what Nissan's own chief engineer is saying? Please keep in mind, this variable power delivery issue may be more true than your "truth." In your "excitement" for finding *only* info that shows how bad the 997 Turbo is, maybe you've chosen to ignore some hard facts?

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071017/FREE/71017001
    Earlier, Mizuno-san had offered some lap times from the Nordschliefe for various cars driven by the German magazine SportAuto. Those times are driver-dependent, track-knowledge-dependent, weather-, traffic- and bunny-crossing-the-track dependent. But Mizuno suggested the GT-R could get anywhere from 7:44 on up, with most laps coming in between 7:55 and 7:58. So he suggested the GT-R's strong suit was that it offered "the best cost per lap time." For whatever that's worth.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    cannga said:
    All people here post about good AND bad aspects of the Porche Turbo. It's not a perfect car by any stretch of imaginatioin.

    AUM has an interesting pattern of posting ONLY the bad news. I have been wondering for a while what his hidden agenda is.

    Quote:
    reginos said:
    Thanks AUM, very informative!

    Do you represent Nissan in Germany?

    or you are just a defender of the truth?





    I am not a GTR fan although I do appreciate its performance. I am a Turbo owner who is interested in the truth. Some comments in this and other GTR threads make Porsche owners and fans sound immature and insecure.

    The GTR laps faster than the Turbo. Get over it and ask more of Porsche.


    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    The GTR laps faster than the Turbo. Get over it and ask more of Porsche.



    Not just claimed faster than Porsche... but Zondas, Koenigseggs, Rufs, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, etc... See the problem most people have is not just Nissan versus Porsche but versus reality. Porsche is just the manufacturer calling bull sh!t!.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    I tend to ignore manufacturer claims and place more value on independent tests.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    The following article may shed some light on this issue...

    http://www.speedsportlife.com/2008/10/01/avoidable-contact-17-cheating-nissan-bitter-porsche/

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    I tend to ignore manufacturer claims and place more value on independent tests.



    But you accept Nissan's Ring time claim? Thats the time in dispute here. Their claimed ring time beats Sport Auto times for the manufacturers I mentioned. Hence everyone being skeptical.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    I tend to ignore manufacturer claims and place more value on independent tests.



    But you accept Nissan's Ring time claim? Thats the time in dispute here. Their claimed ring time beats Sport Auto times for the manufacturers I mentioned. Hence everyone being skeptical.



    No I do not believe (or disbelieve) Nissan's claim until we have more evidence. I prefer independent tests which all indicate that the GTR laps faster than the Turbo. This is the key fact that some Porsche owners are upset about, not the exact Ring time of the GTR.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    I tend to ignore manufacturer claims and place more value on independent tests.



    But you accept Nissan's Ring time claim? Thats the time in dispute here. Their claimed ring time beats Sport Auto times for the manufacturers I mentioned. Hence everyone being skeptical.



    No I do not believe (or disbelieve) Nissan's claim until we have more evidence. I prefer independent tests which all indicate that the GTR laps faster than the Turbo. This is the key fact that some Porsche owners are upset about, not the exact Ring time of the GTR.



    You seem to be the only one bringing that out over and over for some reason, yet everybody else is talking about Nissan lying on their claimed NRing lap time, and Porsche just being the one to call them out for it, not about GT-R vs 997TT lap times in other tracks and which is faster compared to the other.

    Even worse, if you pay closer attention, nobody is even denying that the GT-R can lap the ring faster than the 997TT, thats still to be known until the Supertest, only that a 7:29 lap time is an insult to everybody's intelligence.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    * On April 17, 2008 the Nissan test team was back at the Nurburgring and recorded a new lap time of seven minutes and 29 seconds, several times.



    see, this is were we know they are lying since you can't change the transmission and the brakes that quick between laps

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    I tend to ignore manufacturer claims and place more value on independent tests.



    But you accept Nissan's Ring time claim? Thats the time in dispute here. Their claimed ring time beats Sport Auto times for the manufacturers I mentioned. Hence everyone being skeptical.



    No I do not believe (or disbelieve) Nissan's claim until we have more evidence. I prefer independent tests which all indicate that the GTR laps faster than the Turbo. This is the key fact that some Porsche owners are upset about, not the exact Ring time of the GTR.



    C'mon, man,

    50+ posts and you are still defending the indefensible.

    That 7:29 time is a joke, a farce.

    480 HP and 3,800 pounds and 7:29.

    Only a complete dupe believes (or refuses to disbelieve) this.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Carlos,

    I guess I am not the only one seeing the "problem" here. I do believe that AUM's puzzling fixation on Porsche's and 997 Turbo's "bad news" has adversely affected his logic. Chanting the "GT-R faster" mantra over and over is a sign. Making assumption about what's "upsetting" others is another.

    The interesting part, assuming things turn out "perfect" in AUM's world , that the GT-R is in fact faster than the Turbo, is that the response will be a big "so what?". Corvette Z06 already did it; the 997 Turbo is a 2 year old design ready for a facelift (Nick's favorite argument LOL), without PDK, designed mainly for the streets; what's the cause for celebration?

    There are many suspicious aspects of the GT-R -- variable power delivery, questions over the tranny's reliability, its weight, the VDK (void warranty if you use this to get the advertised mid 3 sec 0-60 time), etc., etc., that a person chose to focus on "GT-R faster" shows just how "unfortunate" the "fixation" is.

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    No I do not believe (or disbelieve) Nissan's claim until we have more evidence. I prefer independent tests which all indicate that the GTR laps faster than the Turbo. This is the key fact that some Porsche owners are upset about, not the exact Ring time of the GTR.



    You seem to be the only one bringing that out over and over for some reason, yet everybody else is talking about Nissan lying on their claimed NRing lap time, and Porsche just being the one to call them out for it, not about GT-R vs 997TT lap times in other tracks and which is faster compared to the other.

    Even worse, if you pay closer attention, nobody is even denying that the GT-R can lap the ring faster than the 997TT, thats still to be known until the Supertest, only that a 7:29 lap time is an insult to everybody's intelligence.


    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    I almost bought a 997 Turbo and I want the Turbo to beat the GTR. Hopefully the FL Turbo will do so convincingly.

    I am not defending Nissan claims just introducing a little balance and a few facts into the somewhat hysterical Nissan witch hunt.

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Trans Am(LS1) vs GTR

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRjk57xRSic

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    I almost bought a 997 Turbo and I want the Turbo to beat the GTR. Hopefully the FL Turbo will do so convincingly.

    I am not defending Nissan claims just introducing a little balance and a few facts into the somewhat hysterical Nissan witch hunt.



    In your effort to have a balanced view you go and play devil's advocate IMO and you end up in the opposite direction. That of GT-R worship.

    In your posts you disregard the numerous question marks hanging over the GT-R. Things that have been well documented here and elsewhere on the net, like:
    1. the feasibility of the 7.29 time and the conditions it might have been achieved under
    2. the variarion in performance between examples of this model
    3. the clouds gathering over the reliability/fragility of some of its systems.

    It would have been more balanced if you included the above elements in your assessment.
    As it comes across, maybe unknowingly to you, it is a full attack on Porsche and a cult-fixation with the Nissan.

    Anyway, I hope the upcoming FL Turbo satisfies you more and you end up with one!

    Re: Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating N-Ring time

    The Nissan 7.29 claim cannot be proved or disproved so let's stick to what we know from independent tests. The GTR laps very close to the GT2 in most tests. http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php?page_id=compare&car1=4717b80e35715&car2=46a06c22ab41a

    Given this evidence it seems possible that the GTR and GT2 are also close at the Ring. We know the GT2 Ring time. Why not come to terms with the fact that the GTR is a very fast car (with styling, image and maybe reliability problems). And wait for the Sport Auto test for the final verdict.

    Witch hunts lower the standing of Porsche owners.

     
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