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    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    RC:

    For a "real" Autopilot to work, all cars would need to be networked with each other and the roads, stopping lights, etc. would need to have sensors to communicate with that "car network". It will take decades for such a system to be up and running in major traffic hotspots...

    And the only way this would work would be to ban manual driving. Because as soon as one car starts behaving outside the algorithm, the whole system will break down.


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    apias:
    RC:

    For a "real" Autopilot to work, all cars would need to be networked with each other and the roads, stopping lights, etc. would need to have sensors to communicate with that "car network". It will take decades for such a system to be up and running in major traffic hotspots...

    And the only way this would work would be to ban manual driving. Because as soon as one car starts behaving outside the algorithm, the whole system will break down.

    Not really. The "manual" cars would need to be connected to that network as well...this would suffice. Of course this probably couldn't prevent an accident from a "manual" car if the driver makes a driving error.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    That's what I mean. The auto-cars will behave predictably, algorithmically whereas the manually driven cars will sometimes do things that "break" the algorithm for the other cars, and the results will be unpredictable. (Obviously, 'algorithm' oversimplifies a bit, but I think the point is still valid.) This is out of what happens now and even humans can't always compensate for these unpredictable behaviors. AI is nowhere near ready for this. For it to really increase safety it would be necessary to ban manual driving. In other words, the whole self-driving car scheme is "evil".


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    apias:

    That's what I mean. The auto-cars will behave predictably, algorithmically whereas the manually driven cars will sometimes do things that "break" the algorithm for the other cars, and the results will be unpredictable. (Obviously, 'algorithm' oversimplifies a bit, but I think the point is still valid.) This is out of what happens now and even humans can't always compensate for these unpredictable behaviors. AI is nowhere near ready for this. For it to really increase safety it would be necessary to ban manual driving. In other words, the whole self-driving car scheme is "evil".

    Of course it would lower the death and injury numbers, especially in countries with very high ones, by a substantial amount if we "automatize" driving. I am also afraid that at some point in the future, this could happen, if we like it or not but we are still decades or even a century away from such an "evil" thing. Why? Cost. It would be way too expensive to network everything, we need simpler, better and less expensive technology for it to work. I wouldn't rule it out forever though, maybe starting with the next century, we could see even a ban of manually operated cars in bigger cities.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    Tesla Employees Raised Concerns About Autopilot Long Before Fatal Crash

    Could just be disgruntled employees practicing 20/20 hindsight, but, if this is accurate, it's not really a good sign:

    Those with inside knowledge of how Autopilot was developed and implemented describe a culture that eschewed safety precautions in the name of faster rollout of the new technology. One unnamed source told CNN that the team’s motto was “not to let the perfect be the enemy of the better,” with Musk insisting, “don’t let concerns slow progress.”


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    apias:

    Tesla Employees Raised Concerns About Autopilot Long Before Fatal Crash

    Could just be disgruntled employees practicing 20/20 hindsight, but, if this is accurate, it's not really a good sign:

    Those with inside knowledge of how Autopilot was developed and implemented describe a culture that eschewed safety precautions in the name of faster rollout of the new technology. One unnamed source told CNN that the team’s motto was “not to let the perfect be the enemy of the better,” with Musk insisting, “don’t let concerns slow progress.”

    But this is exactly how you need to lead software development, if you want a product that actually gets built.  Thing is, a slightly less perfect version of Angry Birds, will not kill anyone. 


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    I think the media is going crazy on this whole topic.. Tesla is looking into the brakes for the fatal accident. 

    Source:  http://www.autoblog.com/2016/07/31/tesla-autopilot-crash-auto-braking-report/

    Their two theories are basically that either the radar didn't detect or that they did but classified as a large structure, which are then ignored in order to avoid false braking.


    --

    1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

    Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

    
    

    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-china-crash-idUSKCN10L0P4

    Tesla needs to disable this system on end-user cars until it is really ready for the market. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    fritz:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-china-crash-idUSKCN10L0P4

    Tesla needs to disable this system on end-user cars until it is really ready for the market. 

    This wasn't even a very "difficult" or "tricky" situation for the system, it just completely failed. Smiley Unless of course it wasn't turned on at all... Smiley but I guess Tesla will have an investigation and we'll know soon what happened (or not).

    To be honest: Whenever I watch those autonomous driving videos on YouTube, I have a very bad feeling. As someone who is paying attention to every detail while driving, I just wouldn't feel comfortable to let the system do it. This isn't necessarily a trust issue, this is some sort of survival instinct, as weird as this may sound. Smiley Sorry, this isn't for me and I wonder how drivers can lean back, relax and let the system do the driving. Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    FWIW, I suspect that even Tesla's flawed system might already be "statistically" safer than real humans.
    Its just that we always have made and always will have to make allowances for flawed humans, but shouldn't allow low standards for nascent automated systems with serious safety implications just so some early adopters can engage in marketing hype.


    --

    fritz


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    fritz:

    FWIW, I suspect that even Tesla's flawed system might already be "statistically" safer than real humans.
    Its just that we always have made and always will have to make allowances for flawed humans, but shouldn't allow low standards for nascent automated systems with serious safety implications just so some early adopters can engage in marketing hype.

    Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    Entirely agree. I would add that the novelty here is the combination of flawed humans and flawed "autopilot" systems which can create unpredictable outcomes. 


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    The weird part is: I love new tech. I adore new tech. I'm a sucker for new tech and sometimes, I buy crap just to try it, even if I suspect it will be...crap. When it comes to my personal safety though, no experiments for me, no way.

    I love what Tesla is doing with their new products and I admire Elon Musk but some of the innovations should stay in beta testing until they are not only clear for V 1.0 but at least 2.0 when it comes to safety. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)



    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    DJM48:

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/autonomous-cars-who-should-they-save-crash

     

    Very interesting study... Smiley

    New problems for a new(?) world. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    Perhaps a round 2 vs battery fires?

    http://www.autoblog.com/2016/08/15/tesla-model-s-fire-france-test-drive/


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    Maybe they accidentally activated the self-destruct sequence; it's only in beta, so...


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    apias:

    Maybe they accidentally activated the self-destruct sequence; it's only in beta, so...

    Self-destruct sequence?  Is that the one which is meant to be triggered if a battery set looks like it will otherwise fail within the manufacturer's warranty period?  Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    No, no, you're thinking of the Terms of Service. The self-destruct was accidentally included in some tech borrowed from SpaceX.


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    I think we've found the explanation for Tesla's "Autopilot" system having been released to the general public when it really wasn't ready for it:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/elon-musk-mars-announcement-today-mission-die-how-will-it-work-red...


    --

    fritz


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    Has he signed up to go?


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    Well what's the count of how many drivers lives have been saved by the auto pilot? That's right we don't know, but if it is 1 more than otherwise it's a win. 


    --

    1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

    Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

    
    


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    This is a very dynamic problem and it's why you should always been watching the road if using autonomous driving in area where there might be people. When I think about human decision making, it would most likely depend on speed and what exactly I might swerve into. I'd swerve into a parked car or stationary object at 20 mph to avoid someone. I wouldn't swerve into something at 50 mph, though I might side swipe something at 50 mph rather than head on collision. I wouldn't swerve at all if there was a cliff or sidewalk with other people.

    I'd say that for the time when autonomous driving will be most useful, bigger roads/highways and annoying city traffic, prioritizing the driver is OK. I can't imagine I'd really even want to use autonomous driving in a no-traffic, short-distance situation.


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    The German BASt (Bundesanstalt für Straßenwesen), the Federal Highway Research Institute which provides the German Federal Ministry of Transport and Digital Infrastructure (BMVI) with scientifically valid aids as decision support in technical and transport policy issues, has deemed the Tesla S Autopilot to be unsafe and they actually recommended to "remove" the Tesla S with Autopilot from German roads. They tested the Tesla S under various conditions and came to the conclusion that it is not safe, especially not as promised by Tesla. Unfortunately the German Ministry of Transport seems to keep this report under wraps, for whatever reasons. Maybe because many German manufacturers are working on similar (more effective?) systems and they don't want to scare potential future customers?

    Especially for German Autobahns, where cars often drive over 200 kph, the Tesla S Autopilot is not capable of "dealing" with traffic situations according to them. For example: The Tesla S Autopilot wanted to move to the left lane to pass another car while another car was coming from behind at a very high speed. The driver of the Tesla had huge difficulties to move back to the right lane to avoid a crash.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    RC:

    The German BASt (Bundesanstalt für Straßenwesen), the Federal Highway Research Institute which provides the German Federal Ministry of Transport and Digital Infrastructure (BMVI) with scientifically valid aids as decision support in technical and transport policy issues, has deemed the Tesla S Autopilot to be unsafe and they actually recommended to "remove" the Tesla S with Autopilot from German roads. They tested the Tesla S under various conditions and came to the conclusion that it is not safe, especially not as promised by Tesla. Unfortunately the German Ministry of Transport seems to keep this report under wraps, for whatever reasons. Maybe because many German manufacturers are working on similar (more effective?) systems and they don't want to scare potential future customers?

    Especially for German Autobahns, where cars often drive over 200 kph, the Tesla S Autopilot is not capable of "dealing" with traffic situations according to them. For example: The Tesla S Autopilot wanted to move to the left lane to pass another car while another car was coming from behind at a very high speed. The driver of the Tesla had huge difficulties to move back to the right lane to avoid a crash.

    A sign that German Autobahn conditions had not been taken into consideration when developing the software and/or hardware (sensor types and positions?). 


    --

    fritz


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    fritz:
    RC:

    The German BASt (Bundesanstalt für Straßenwesen), the Federal Highway Research Institute which provides the German Federal Ministry of Transport and Digital Infrastructure (BMVI) with scientifically valid aids as decision support in technical and transport policy issues, has deemed the Tesla S Autopilot to be unsafe and they actually recommended to "remove" the Tesla S with Autopilot from German roads. They tested the Tesla S under various conditions and came to the conclusion that it is not safe, especially not as promised by Tesla. Unfortunately the German Ministry of Transport seems to keep this report under wraps, for whatever reasons. Maybe because many German manufacturers are working on similar (more effective?) systems and they don't want to scare potential future customers?

    Especially for German Autobahns, where cars often drive over 200 kph, the Tesla S Autopilot is not capable of "dealing" with traffic situations according to them. For example: The Tesla S Autopilot wanted to move to the left lane to pass another car while another car was coming from behind at a very high speed. The driver of the Tesla had huge difficulties to move back to the right lane to avoid a crash.

    A sign that German Autobahn conditions had not been taken into consideration when developing the software and/or hardware (sensor types and positions?). 

    Tesla officially sells the Tesla S in Germany, so this should be something they had taken in consideration. Look at the range or that Ludicrous mode of theirs: If you drive the Tesla S P90D on the Autobahn at maximum possible speeds, range is under 200 km (from a claimed 600 km range). If you use the Ludicrous mode more than twice or three times, the system overheats and it reduces power, also battery consumption is ludicrous as well. Smiley 

    Driving the Tesla S with my driving style in Germany, range is more around 160 km than 600 km. Smiley I'm not kidding. Ridiculous. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    RC:

    Especially for German Autobahns, where cars often drive over 200 kph, the Tesla S Autopilot is not capable of "dealing" with traffic situations according to them. For example: The Tesla S Autopilot wanted to move to the left lane to pass another car while another car was coming from behind at a very high speed. The driver of the Tesla had huge difficulties to move back to the right lane to avoid a crash.

    That's not Autopilot, that's any car with yellow Dutch plates Smiley Smiley

    All joking aside, that report should be published and considered as the public surely has the right to know about the scientific findings. 


    --

    1986 BMW 325i Cabrio Alpine Weiss/Black Leather - German Spec 
    2006 Mercedes-Benz CLS 500 Black/Black Leather 

    Ex: ''91 BMW 535i, '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

     


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    RC:

    Tesla officially sells the Tesla S in Germany, so this should be something they had taken in consideration. Look at the range or that Ludicrous mode of theirs: If you drive the Tesla S P90D on the Autobahn at maximum possible speeds, range is under 200 km (from a claimed 600 km range). If you use the Ludicrous mode more than twice or three times, the system overheats and it reduces power, also battery consumption is ludicrous as well. Smiley 

    Driving the Tesla S with my driving style in Germany, range is more around 160 km than 600 km. Smiley I'm not kidding. Ridiculous. 

    You mean "Ludicrous", don't you?    Smiley


    --

    fritz


     
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