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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    EnglishManInNY:

    The 720 is def an impressive product. Def got me thinking about getting one in a year or so....

    I think the main problem of the 720 is that it is a McLaren. I'm not talking about brand itself here, but about McLaren's model strategy. Sure, right now the 720 seems to be a very tempting offer, but I guess within a few months there will not only be a Spyder (expected), but a 720LT, a 750, a 750LT, more Spyder versions and whatever special edition they will think of. All those will make the 720 look somehow dull. That's something that won't happen if you buy a 488. You can choose between the standard coupe, the Spider or a more track orientated version near the end of the life cycle, very predictable. Even Lamborghini with its special editions isn't as bad as McLaren in this respect. Smiley


    --

     

    We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:

    I do most of my street driving in the speed range 0 to 120 kph, so the 720S would clearly suck. angry

    For the track and for the Autobahn, things look different of course but let's be honest here: Especially in speed limited countries, the performance in the 0-100 mph speed range is most important plus the sound of the car.

    Maybe time for McLaren to offer AWD at least in one of their future models? A modern AWD system shouldn't add more than 40-50 kg of weight.

    Regarding the sound: Maybe the LT version will add some sound?!

    Huh? Last I heard, all you cared about was 300 kph on the autobahn. Now you just care about the low-end all of a sudden?


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Rossi:
    EnglishManInNY:

    The 720 is def an impressive product. Def got me thinking about getting one in a year or so....

    I think the main problem of the 720 is that it is a McLaren. I'm not talking about brand itself here, but about McLaren's model strategy. Sure, right now the 720 seems to be a very tempting offer, but I guess within a few months there will not only be a Spyder (expected), but a 720LT, a 750, a 750LT, more Spyder versions and whatever special edition they will think of. All those will make the 720 look somehow dull. That's something that won't happen if you buy a 488. You can choose between the standard coupe, the Spider or a more track orientated version near the end of the life cycle, very predictable. Even Lamborghini with its special editions isn't as bad as McLaren in this respect. Smiley

    We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

     

    Not sure where you're getting that from. The 570S came out nearly 2 years ago and there is still no Spider. There won't be a 720S Spider for 2 years. LT Probably in 4-5. 

    The McLaren strategy is no different than Ferrari. In fact, the 488 Spider came out only a year after the 488, thus Ferrari is rushing models even quicker than McLaren at this point.

    650S was a one time thing. I t has never happened since. Yes, they probably will offer a few special edition trims and such, so does Lamborghini and Porsche. Ferrari does too if you live in China, for example.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    EnglishManInNY:

    The 720 is def an impressive product. Def got me thinking about getting one in a year or so....

    Go talk to Brian, he will sort you out...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Rossi:
    EnglishManInNY:

    The 720 is def an impressive product. Def got me thinking about getting one in a year or so....

    I think the main problem of the 720 is that it is a McLaren. I'm not talking about brand itself here, but about McLaren's model strategy. Sure, right now the 720 seems to be a very tempting offer, but I guess within a few months there will not only be a Spyder (expected), but a 720LT, a 750, a 750LT, more Spyder versions and whatever special edition they will think of. All those will make the 720 look somehow dull. That's something that won't happen if you buy a 488. You can choose between the standard coupe, the Spider or a more track orientated version near the end of the life cycle, very predictable. Even Lamborghini with its special editions isn't as bad as McLaren in this respect. Smiley


    --

     

    We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

     

    Thats only an issue for the ones who want the lastest and greatest. So what if they come out with a better car every 2 years and call it something different?


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Crazy performance. Check out the review numbers. Standing 1/4 is 143.5 mph @ 10.3. That's a ridiculously fast trap speed. And yeah, you could in fact give a 488 a 3s head start and the 720S would beat it to 170mph. The car is practically hypercar performance. It falls slightly behind the P1 by 130mph, but then more or less maintains the gap of .7-.8s all the way to 190 mph. Only .3s behind a 918 at 130 and ultimately .5s behind at 180mph.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/dedethecollector/34830764956/in/album-72157681118492714/


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    The 720S is pretty much a P1 sans hybrid. Actually it is what a P1 supposed to be until McLaren decided to add hybrid to it after seeing what Porsche is doing with the 918.

    But that also means the hybrid system in the P1 adds very little to it's overall performance, as the P1 is heavier by about 400 lbs. 

     


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    EnglishManInNY:

    I have my tesla P100D for the 0 to 120kph daily range smiley

    The 720 would be a great weekend car for me after my GT3 fix indecision

    I would put you way behind me in my Mini JCW...oh hell, in my wife's Cayenne S Diesel on a curvy country road. You missed my point. I wasn't talking about red light runs. Smiley My favorite public roads are curvy country roads, incl. some very nice mountain roads in the Alps. Beautiful driving possible and you don't have to break the speed limit to enjoy it. I surely wouldn't enjoy it in a Tesla, sorry to say that. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Very few curvy roads where I live unfortunately. My American car for American roads makes for a great daily driver. 

    https://youtu.be/scyYfbL5P9w
    --

     

    Tesla Model S P100D & Model X P90D & 2016 BMW i8 & 2014 991 TTS Cab - Sept 991.2 GT3 ordered. 2017 Porsche Mission E on order

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    EnglishManInNY:

    Very few curvy roads where I live unfortunately. My American car for American roads makes for a great daily driver. 

    This is very unfortunate...

    https://youtu.be/scyYfbL5P9w
     

    Repeat that drag race 2-3x and the result will be different. Smiley The 911 Turbo can do that 20x in a row. How about the Tesla? Smiley

    I really like the Tesla S for the novelty (gadget fun) factor but I would never get one, not even as a daily driver.

    For your mobility purpose however, I get the Tesla, I really do. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Teslas are taking over. By now it is the already most common luxury brand at my country office and every month a car/SUV from another brand is replaced by a Tesla. It might not be perfect for Germany but everywhere else it is THE car to own. It is cool, fresh, full of technology and eco friendly.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Whoopsy:

    The 720S is pretty much a P1 sans hybrid. Actually it is what a P1 supposed to be until McLaren decided to add hybrid to it after seeing what Porsche is doing with the 918.

    But that also means the hybrid system in the P1 adds very little to it's overall performance, as the P1 is heavier by about 400 lbs. 

     

    Ferrari and McLaren made a mistake by trying to make a hybrid halo car. In some way Porsche did too except that they managed to strike a better balance between extra weight and marginal performance. Still, if I was in the market for a hypercar, I would not want a hybrid one. It is a technology flawed at the core and it is just a stopgap until something better comes up.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:

    Teslas are taking over. By now it is the already most common luxury brand at my country office and every month a car/SUV from another brand is replaced by a Tesla. It might not be perfect for Germany but everywhere else it is THE car to own. It is cool, fresh, full of technology and eco friendly.

    I couldn't care less about Tesla (for now). Smiley Maybe a mentality thing?! Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Teslas are not for you. You drive fast, push cars hard, go long distances and drift your cars (safely) on public roads. For everyone else, Teslas are taking over...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Teslas are not for me neither... also there is life outside the US...


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Tesla's are not taking over. They still barely sell any cars and the ones they do sell are mainly to very wealthy people. Until you start seeing as many Teslas on the road as you do Fords and Hondas, they are not taking over. I still see more new Porsches than I do Teslas, so they're not taking over any more than Porsche is.

    There is no indication yet that Tesla's pre-orders are sustainable year after year. It's entirely possible the 400K per-orders exhausts almost all demand and Tesla tanks.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:

    Teslas are not for you. You drive fast, push cars hard, go long distances and drift your cars (safely) on public roads. For everyone else, Teslas are taking over...

    Smiley This is not about pushing hard or safely Smiley drifting (actually I hate drifting because it costs money...tires) but about driving fun. I can see myself in a Tesla from time to time as a novelty factor but driving a Tesla as a daily driver? This would be pure horror for me.

    Teslas are taking over (at least in the US...maybe...saw only two in Florida during my whole last trip of two weeks) because people think it is something chic and modern and because they think they provide a green image. Also, it may be cheaper than a fuel operated car as long as Tesla pays the charging bill.

    The "self driving" feature is something I couldn't care less about (on any car). I don't need it, I don't want it. Even if it would work flawlessly and 100% autonomous.

    What would my favorite daily driver be? Probably a Lamborghini Urus with a bi-turbo charged V10 and 800 hp. Smiley

    Just kidding...I would have so many cars on my list and I would switch them on a daily basis. Smiley 

     

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Tesla's are not taking over. They still barely sell any cars and the ones they do sell are mainly to very wealthy people. Until you start seeing as many Teslas on the road as you do Fords and Hondas, they are not taking over. I still see more new Porsches than I do Teslas, so they're not taking over any more than Porsche is.

    There is no indication yet that Tesla's pre-orders are sustainable year after year. It's entirely possible the 400K per-orders exhausts almost all demand and Tesla tanks.

    Tesla is taking over in the luxury market as it was clearly indicated. Of course they are not taking over the entire market yet. Duh. Numbers speak for themselves. They are the number one seller in the A8/S/7 series segment.

    I have seen plenty of Teslas in Miami, but then again we don't really go in Miami Beach or north of it...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:
    noone1:

    Tesla's are not taking over. They still barely sell any cars and the ones they do sell are mainly to very wealthy people. Until you start seeing as many Teslas on the road as you do Fords and Hondas, they are not taking over. I still see more new Porsches than I do Teslas, so they're not taking over any more than Porsche is.

    There is no indication yet that Tesla's pre-orders are sustainable year after year. It's entirely possible the 400K per-orders exhausts almost all demand and Tesla tanks.

    Tesla is taking over in the luxury market as it was clearly indicated. Of course they are not taking over the entire market yet. Duh. Numbers speak for themselves. They are the number one seller in the A8/S/7 series segment.

    I have seen plenty of Teslas in Miami, but then again we don't really go in Miami Beach or north of it...

    Tesla is also the only EV luxury car on the market, so that's not really indicative of anything. Many Tesla buyers only want an EV, and if there is no other EV, then Tesla is the only option.

    The true measure will be when you can get a BMW or Mercedes luxury EV for the same price.  As of right now, Tesla is simply the only manufacturer in a modestly sized niche, thus it looks like they're taking over.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I agree. Once the classic luxury car manufacturers enter the ELV game, it could be game over for Tesla.

    Unless of course Elon Musk has some secret sauce and some new stuff up his sleeve, stuff he kept hidden for the right time. I doubt it though, most manufacturers, incl. Tesla, cook with water only but Elon Musk had the guts to be the first. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    One thing that Tesla HAS NOT figured out is pretty important............How to make a profit selling cars.  Until Tesla figures out how to make money, its hard to say that have "taken over" anything.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Totally agree too. Mercedes is building a big battery factory no?

    But then you have the issue of having no supercharger network, having to deal with horrible dealers and service and their sleazy sales tactics (Porsche dealer told me to change brakes and rotors a year ago, waited and still no warning light) and be behind in infotainment and technology.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:

    Totally agree too. Mercedes is building a big battery factory no?

    But then you have the issue of having no supercharger network, having to deal with horrible dealers and service and their sleazy sales tactics (Porsche dealer told me to change brakes and rotors a year ago, waited and still no warning light) and be behind in infotainment and technology.

    Right now, a lot of things can and probably will change in the car industry. 

    The charging issue is a very serious one. Most people live in condos and not in houses, also it would require a new kind of supercharger and battery tech with much faster charging times. ELVs will have a breakthrough eventually but especially in Europe, it will take at least another decade, maybe longer. We discussed this before.

    Once there is a technological breakthrough (charging and battery capacity), ELVs could prevail indeed.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    GT-Boy:

    One thing that Tesla HAS NOT figured out is pretty important............How to make a profit selling cars.  Until Tesla figures out how to make money, its hard to say that have "taken over" anything.

    Read up please. They are making money on S and X models, margins are around 20% (not sure if EV credits still come into play or not).

    The reason why Tesla is loosing money as a company is because they are investing billions to create and produce the model 3 from scratch and in very large numbers. A few years back the automobile dinosaurs told Musk he could not do any of it. Now we are two months away from the start of production and he still has a few billions in the bank.

    On another note I just love his style of managent. He just said publically he was an idiot for trying to pack the X with so much tech advances. On the other hand you have VW execs not even admitting they were part of the largest fraud and cover up the car industry has ever encountered.

    On yet another note, I despise the traditional luxury makers as a whole for holding back technological advances for decades and their collusion to maximize profits at the expense of the customers and to hide their will to innovate. If it wasn't for Tesla, autonomous driving and EVS would be a decade behind where they are now. I also despise Porsche Mercedes and BMW for the constant gouging of upper specced models. And don't even get me started on the stubbornness of not offering tech retrofits on already sold models... They are as bad as Microsoft used to be.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:
    GT-Boy:

    One thing that Tesla HAS NOT figured out is pretty important............How to make a profit selling cars.  Until Tesla figures out how to make money, its hard to say that have "taken over" anything.

    Read up please. They are making money on S and X models, margins are around 20% (not sure if EV credits still come into play or not).

    The reason why Tesla is loosing money as a company is because they are investing billions to create and produce the model 3 from scratch and in very large numbers. A few years back the automobile dinosaurs told Musk he could not do any of it. Now we are two months away from the start of production and he still has a few billions in the bank.

    On another note I just love his style of managent. He just said publically he was an idiot for trying to pack the X with so much tech advances. On the other hand you have VW execs not even admitting they were part of the largest fraud and cover up the car industry has ever encountered.

    On yet another note, I despise the traditional luxury makers as a whole for holding back technological advances for decades and their collusion to maximize profits at the expense of the customers and to hide their will to innovate. If it wasn't for Tesla, autonomous driving and EVS would be a decade behind where they are now. I also despise Porsche Mercedes and BMW for the constant gouging of upper specced models. And don't even get me started on the stubbornness of not offering tech retrofits on already sold models... They are as bad as Microsoft used to be.

    Well...my R8 is the latest generation R8. My car has been manufactured April 2016. Starting with July 2016, the next model year started. Suddenly, the fantastic B&O system got headrest speakers, sounding even more impressive at lower volumes and optional Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. Retrofittable? No chance. Smiley  Ridiculous. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:
     

    Tesla is taking over in the luxury market as it was clearly indicated. Of course they are not taking over the entire market yet. Duh. Numbers speak for themselves. They are the number one seller in the A8/S/7 series segment.

    I have seen plenty of Teslas in Miami, but then again we don't really go in Miami Beach or north of it...

     

    Hmm, Model S is E-Class/A6/5 Series class size wise and price wise. No?

     


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Size you might be right but price it is in the upper segment.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:

    Size you might be right but price it is in the upper segment.

    A fully optioned E 63 S AMG is not far away, price-wise, from a Tesla S P100D over here in Germany.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:
    noone1:

    Tesla's are not taking over. They still barely sell any cars and the ones they do sell are mainly to very wealthy people. Until you start seeing as many Teslas on the road as you do Fords and Hondas, they are not taking over. I still see more new Porsches than I do Teslas, so they're not taking over any more than Porsche is.

    There is no indication yet that Tesla's pre-orders are sustainable year after year. It's entirely possible the 400K per-orders exhausts almost all demand and Tesla tanks.

    Tesla is taking over in the luxury market as it was clearly indicated. Of course they are not taking over the entire market yet. Duh. Numbers speak for themselves. They are the number one seller in the A8/S/7 series segment.

    I have seen plenty of Teslas in Miami, but then again we don't really go in Miami Beach or north of it...

    They mostly sell to people who know nothing or very little about cars but think a Tesla might be trending... Also, every car sold comes with a loss for the seller. This company will blow up sooner or later Smiley 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:
    GT-Boy:

    One thing that Tesla HAS NOT figured out is pretty important............How to make a profit selling cars.  Until Tesla figures out how to make money, its hard to say that have "taken over" anything.

    Read up please. They are making money on S and X models, margins are around 20% (not sure if EV credits still come into play or not).

    The reason why Tesla is loosing money as a company is because they are investing billions to create and produce the model 3 from scratch and in very large numbers. A few years back the automobile dinosaurs told Musk he could not do any of it. Now we are two months away from the start of production and he still has a few billions in the bank.

    On another note I just love his style of managent. He just said publically he was an idiot for trying to pack the X with so much tech advances. On the other hand you have VW execs not even admitting they were part of the largest fraud and cover up the car industry has ever encountered.

    On yet another note, I despise the traditional luxury makers as a whole for holding back technological advances for decades and their collusion to maximize profits at the expense of the customers and to hide their will to innovate. If it wasn't for Tesla, autonomous driving and EVS would be a decade behind where they are now. I also despise Porsche Mercedes and BMW for the constant gouging of upper specced models. And don't even get me started on the stubbornness of not offering tech retrofits on already sold models... They are as bad as Microsoft used to be.

    To be fair, they need to be vastly more profitable than just enough to cover capex/R&D because capex/R&D will never stop. It's constant.

    So until we see significant profit beyond capex, they aren't in fact profitable. As Warren Buffet said, capex is just another word for recurring expense. It makes no sense to back-out capex when looking at profit.

    The verdict is still out on whether they will ever reach a significant profitability beyond covering these expenses.


     
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