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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:
    SciFrog:

    If the car was selling well you could not buy an almost new one for 50k less than MSRP... Economics 101...

    Not true. You can have very good sales but abundant supply. If there is plentiful supply and new cars can be ordered and delivered relatively quickly, used cars need significant discount to make them worth buying, especially if you live someplace with a snowy season.

    $200K+ cars depreciate a lot. It's just the nature of them.

    Huracan is a good example. Tons of demand, good reviews, great car, but every dealer had tons of them and there was never much difficulty in getting allocation with reasonable delivery time. Huracan was $50K under MSRP very quickly.

    Surprisingly, it goes faster to get a Ferrari 488 GTB than a Lamborghini Huracan in Germany. Coupes. Spiders are a different story, both are hard to get right now. Depreciation is also smaller on the Huracan and but delivery times are a bit shorter than for the R8 (if you order a custom car) over here. Discounts are also worse on the Huracan compared to the R8.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:
    Italo:
    RC:
    Italo:
    RC:
     

    In other countries, the R8 is even sold out if you want a new one. In the US and even the UK, the demand for the new R8 seems to be exceptionally high and the Spider has already a 12-16 months waiting period in the US.

    I do not know, maybe it is different in Switzerland. Smiley

    .

    Not totally correct, the R8 is struggling in the UK with sales really slowing down just because its got the 4 rings on the bonnet instead of the raging bull. Prices start from £112k for a 5 month old car with 2.000 miles on the clock.

    Those guys from the UK on R8talk.com seem to have a different opinion. Smiley

    Also, German prices include 19% VAT. The base price of the R8 V10 Plus in the UK is 156k EUR, the base price in Germany is 190k EUR, incl. 19% VAT. Not sure if the UK price is incl. VAT?

    I found the cheapest R8 V10 Plus in the UK for 119k GBP and with basically not many options, so I don't think the R8 is struggling in the UK. You are confusing numbers here... 

    this one has 5k miles for £112k

    http://www4.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201608206981382?search-target=usedcars&make=audi&model=r8&year-from=2...

     

    I never compare prices of private sellers because you never know why he wants/has to sell. Still, not seeing a bargain here, especially compared to the car I got myself. Smiley I "paid" 48k EUR under MSRP with 3300 km only and a fully optioned car with almost five years and 100000 km warranty. Still, if you want to order a new custom optioned R8 in Germany, it takes over a year to get the car. If the dealer has already an order at Audi and no customer, you could get one around winter time (January). Not exactly a car which doesn't sell. Smiley


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     

    Wrong a=gain RC, delivery is delayed just to help the current cars in circulation hold thier value a bit. Audi were producing way too many cars compared to the demand thinking they could compete with the Huracan in terms of depreciation.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:

    Surprisingly, it goes faster to get a Ferrari 488 GTB than a Lamborghini Huracan in Germany. Coupes. Spiders are a different story, both are hard to get right now. Depreciation is also smaller on the Huracan and but delivery times are a bit shorter than for the R8 (if you order a custom car) over here. Discounts are also worse on the Huracan compared to the R8.

    These things are market dependent as you and others have pointed out. I have to agree with @Italo though - the R8 is not flying out the door in the UK and good discounts can be had on virtually new cars. I think we can all also agree that McLaren has come a long way in a short space of time. The 570S is a triumph at its price point in my view, and over an above its performance its steering is astonishingly good. The other thing we can all agree on is that the Huracan is the best looking between the three by far. It's a shame the Huracan is so under appreciated by the general market. I for one am awaiting the Superleggera with relish.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:
    SciFrog:

    If the car was selling well you could not buy an almost new one for 50k less than MSRP... Economics 101...

    Wrong. Audi made the mistake to promote the new R8 a bit too enthusiastic in Germany (and other parts of Europe) and dealers ended up not only with ordered R8 (basically mandatory cars because otherwise they couldn't get higher quotas of very popular models like the new Q7 for example) but also with the dozens(!) of R8 used for the Audi Experience events. My dealer has or had (I think) over 10(!) cars, all of them slightly used (2000 km at max) and with OK options (many aren't fully optioned!). This is why there are so many used cars at lower prices available. Try to order a car and things look different.

    These used R8 from the Audi Experience don't sell too well as it seems, despite their low(er) prices because they are often not fully optioned and even run on 19'' wheels. If you pay over 160k EUR for a car, you want it to have all the goodies available, right?! Also, most of these cars are early production cars from 2015, even if they are MY 2016 cars in Germany.

    My dealer also made a huge mistake with his RS6 Performance (pre)orders. He thought he could sell many of them but demand was less than satisfactory, probably because many potential customers switched to the new SQ7 instead (I know but... Smiley). So now my dealer has a couple of RS6 Performance in stock, new and slightly used, he would like to get rid off... Smiley

    Audi tries now to re-organize the whole R8 strategy, two large German dealers (mine included) will serve as some sort of beta testing for the new strategy to take care of R8 customers and their cars. Similar to the VIP program at Porsche. Smiley Smiley

    This car has only 1200 km, pretty well optioned (dynamic steering, 20'' wheels, sport exhaust, magnetic ride, leather, laser light) and is offered at 165k EUR. It was registered in June 2016 but the car is actually from 2015 (first production) as far as I understood.

    Good offer though and I am pretty sure you could get it for 162k or so, incl. the wrapping if people like it...

    2016-08-23_17-44-19.jpg


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     

    But does it really matter how it happened? The damage is done, Audi flooded the market with almost new discounted cars. Good for the people like you who buys them, bad for the ones who paid close to MSRP before or after (if any). The R8 simply follows the depreciation pattern of modern high price sport cars except a very few somewhat limited cars...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    crayphile:
    RC:

    Surprisingly, it goes faster to get a Ferrari 488 GTB than a Lamborghini Huracan in Germany. Coupes. Spiders are a different story, both are hard to get right now. Depreciation is also smaller on the Huracan and but delivery times are a bit shorter than for the R8 (if you order a custom car) over here. Discounts are also worse on the Huracan compared to the R8.

    These things are market dependent as you and others have pointed out. I have to agree with @Italo though - the R8 is not flying out the door in the UK and good discounts can be had on virtually new cars. I think we can all also agree that McLaren has come a long way in a short space of time. The 570S is a triumph at its price point in my view, and over an above its performance its steering is astonishingly good. The other thing we can all agree on is that the Huracan is the best looking between the three by far. It's a shame the Huracan is so under appreciated by the general market. I for one am awaiting the Superleggera with relish.

    I don't think the Huracan is underappreciated. It's price a bit out of touch with the exotic competition and the R8 is identical performance (maybe better?) for $50-75K less. I also think the design of the Huracan left a bit to be desired design-wise after 10+ years of Gallardo. I expected revolutionary design with the Huracan and I just don't see it. I actually think the 580 front and rear-ends look better too.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Italo:
    Wrong a=gain RC, delivery is delayed just to help the current cars in circulation hold thier value a bit. Audi were producing way too many cars compared to the demand thinking they could compete with the Huracan in terms of depreciation.

    Not true but it is difficult to prove something without saying too much. Smiley

    Also, a car manufacturer delaying delivery intentionally? Seriously? Do you actually know how the car business works? Smiley 

    You sound like those conspiracy theory people who accuse Apple of artificially keeping iPhone production low to raise demand and this is actually a thing I know 100% it isn't true because I have a friend working for one of their major suppliers. On the contrary, Apple cannot get enough parts to make more phones (SE for example was a serious issue).

    The R8 was never intended as a competitor to the Huracan, on the contrary. The R8 is specifically made for those who want a reliable super sportscar from a major brand without the flashy looks and shady reputation of an exotic.

    Right now, Audi is kind of experimenting with R8 distribution and service. The car has been introduced last year but first cars in Germany actually made it to customers this year only, with a few exceptions. In the US, distribution just started a few months ago, one reason these are MY 2017 cars from the start.

    You need to give me the courtesy of accepting that I know quite a lot about Audi and the R8, I didn't choose this car by accident. A few other considerations I cannot really explain right now also fell into place, after I actually wanted to get a used first generation model as a weekend toy only. 

    I cannot say much about the success of the R8 in the UK though but looking at the comments of UK owners on R8talk.com, I think it is safe to say they are very happy with their cars. In the US, the R8 distribution basically just started a few months ago, so it is way to early to say something about the success.

    The many R8 Audi Experience cars, initially produced in 2015 to offer potential customers a way to test-drive the new R8 in a "controlled" environment offered by Audi, were a huge mistake in my opinion (I am not alone with this opinion). They "dilute" the used car market right now. This will find an end next year though, since these cars will all be sold at some point.

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    we should rename all threads related to cars to RC's R8 discussions....heart


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:
    But does it really matter how it happened? The damage is done, Audi flooded the market with almost new discounted cars. Good for the people like you who buys them, bad for the ones who paid close to MSRP before or after (if any). The R8 simply follows the depreciation pattern of modern high price sport cars except a very few somewhat limited cars...

     

    Frankly speaking, I think Audi doesn't really care. They seem to have the liberty to experiment with their R8 distribution/service model over here in Germany and I didn't get the feeling that dealers get huge incentives to move those R8, unlike other cars like the RS6 or less expensive models.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    BjoernB:

    we should rename all threads related to cars to RC's R8 discussions....heart

    Sorry...but it started with a McLaren depreciation discussion. Smiley 


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:
    Italo:
    Wrong a=gain RC, delivery is delayed just to help the current cars in circulation hold thier value a bit. Audi were producing way too many cars compared to the demand thinking they could compete with the Huracan in terms of depreciation.

    Not true but it is difficult to prove something without saying too much. Smiley

    Also, a car manufacturer delaying delivery intentionally? Seriously? Do you actually know how the car business works? Smiley 

    Are you serious! what is the Ferrari module based on ? Do you think Ferrari can't produce more cars if they want to?

    Now what happened to the 997, over supply killed the 2nd hand value. Now Porsche has tried to rectify this with the 991 by reducing the amount of cars produced.

    You sound like those conspiracy theory people who accuse Apple of artificially keeping iPhone production low to raise demand and this is actually a thing I know 100% it isn't true because I have a friend working for one of their major suppliers. On the contrary, Apple cannot get enough parts to make more phones (SE for example was a serious issue).

    T

    Tell me, are you now saying Audi don't have the capacity to produce more cars or they have now realised that the car is not selling as expected due to the silly philosophy of using the some of the parts of a basic A3 i.e. Sat Nav. German manufacturers can produce gazillion cars of various models if the demand is there, just look at Mercedes and see how many different variants they have right now.

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    BjoernB:

    we should rename all threads related to cars to RC's R8 discussions....heart

    I feel threatened. RC's compulsive obsession with the R8's superiority is even overshadowing the mighty GT4 now yessmiley


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    u both should compete in which car you can plug more expensive Camera equipment indecision


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    BjoernB:

    u both should compete in which car you can plug more expensive Camera equipment indecision

    wink


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    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I have lost nearly 4 hours searching on the web for a McLaren R8. I have no clue what about RC is talking about. Has anyone here a picture of this "über" McLaren called R8 or am I in the wrong forum??


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    AM

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    bluelines:
    BjoernB:

    we should rename all threads related to cars to RC's R8 discussions....heart

    I feel threatened. RC's compulsive obsession with the R8's superiority is even overshadowing the mighty GT4 now yessmiley

    As long these two do not challenge the widely accepted Volvo supremacy, the world will be fine.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    ALDO:

    I have lost nearly 4 hours searching on the web for a McLaren R8. I have no clue what about RC is talking about. Has anyone here a picture of this "über" McLaren called R8 or am I in the wrong forum??

    Well, I hope you never stand next to me at a red light...you will be disappointed Smiley 

    Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Italo:
    RC:
    Italo:
    Wrong a=gain RC, delivery is delayed just to help the current cars in circulation hold thier value a bit. Audi were producing way too many cars compared to the demand thinking they could compete with the Huracan in terms of depreciation.

    Not true but it is difficult to prove something without saying too much. Smiley

    Also, a car manufacturer delaying delivery intentionally? Seriously? Do you actually know how the car business works? Smiley 

    Are you serious! what is the Ferrari module based on ? Do you think Ferrari can't produce more cars if they want to?

    According to what I know from talks to Ferrari employees, they are very limited by their distribution model, dealers, parts and other issues. Yes, they would make more cars if they would make more money with them but raising production would also raise cost and so far, the current cost/gain analysis seems to work just fine for them. The production is not artificially limited, it is limited by their business and distribution model.

    Now what happened to the 997, over supply killed the 2nd hand value. Now Porsche has tried to rectify this with the 991 by reducing the amount of cars produced.

    I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Smiley

    You sound like those conspiracy theory people who accuse Apple of artificially keeping iPhone production low to raise demand and this is actually a thing I know 100% it isn't true because I have a friend working for one of their major suppliers. On the contrary, Apple cannot get enough parts to make more phones (SE for example was a serious issue).

    T

    Tell me, are you now saying Audi don't have the capacity to produce more cars or they have now realised that the car is not selling as expected due to the silly philosophy of using the some of the parts of a basic A3 i.e. Sat Nav. German manufacturers can produce gazillion cars of various models if the demand is there, just look at Mercedes and see how many different variants they have right now.

     

    Are you actually aware that the R8 is hand(!) manufactured at Quattro GmbH (not at Audi) and R8 production capacity is not only limited but very limited, especially since the frame/body structure of the Huracan is made over there as well and the Huracan sells amazingly well? 
    Seriously, you are barking the wrong tree here, I am more "involved" with the car industry than you may actually realize.

    See what just found it's way into my R8 garage... (let's see if you realize what this is, sorry can't do a close-up). I am not part of this forum because I love fantasizing about things, you should know that by now, I am here for over a decade now. Many of my friends are working in the car industry and I get a lot of stuff first hand, some of which I cannot write about because it would get people in trouble or fired. I thought you realized that by now.

    IMG_3410.JPG


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:
    ALDO:

    I have lost nearly 4 hours searching on the web for a McLaren R8. I have no clue what about RC is talking about. Has anyone here a picture of this "über" McLaren called R8 or am I in the wrong forum??

    Well, I hope you never stand next to me at a red light...you will be disappointed Smiley 

    Smiley

    I will never do  Smiley 


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    AM


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Back to topic: Has someone actually driven the 540C? A customer of mine is interested but I don't know what to tell him. He drives a SL500 angry right now and we were talking about the 911 and other sports cars and he wants something exotic and new but not too expensive. Is there any magazine review with numbers of the 540C anywhere? 
    I just realized that the 540C has no carbon brakes, are they available as an option?


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SA got 540C for a review. It will be published in November issue.

    Since I am personally interested in 540C as well I did my homework.

    Ceramic brakes are not needed since standard ones are better for low speed modulation and are as strong as standard brakes in 991.2 Turbo.

    If someone choose the options carefully 540C can end at price below base(Germany) of 991.2 Turbo. 

    http://www.auto-news.de/test/einzeltest/anzeige_Test-McLaren-540C-mit-technischen-Daten,-Preis,-0-100-km-h-Zeit-und-Marktstart_i...

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I am interesting in the performance of this car. 0-200 and 0-300 kph times specifically (review test figures, not factory claims). Also, do you know what tires the 540C comes with as a standard option? My "guy" doesn't want semi-slicks on his car, it will be used just for fun, no track racing or similar stuff.  The 540C seems to be an interesting offer indeed.

    Funny: My customer already drove the R8 V10 Plus but it is too loud/noisy for him. yes Is the 540C available with a standard exhaust and a sport exhaust? Do you know? Thanks.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    On both 540C/570S standard exhaust is the same as is optional sport exhaust. Sport exhaust is louder in complete rev range but, basic tone is the same. It is more sporty and agressive tone then in 991.2 Turbo for example.

    Standard tires are P Zero MC1 which are in lastes version similar to P Zero N1 for Porsche.

    Official 0-200km/h is 10.5s for 540C. I can alread tell you that press example that SA got is faster. 540C is as fast in real world in 0-200km/h as 991.2 Turbo and faster in 0-250km/h and 0-300km/h. Since 570S got 27.3s for 0-300km/h in SA you can expect 28.5s-29.0s for 540C. Fast enough IMO, especially for 160K € base price in Germany.

    Here is nice example in Storm Grey with optional Stealth finish forged wheels.

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    This looks nice - I would suggest such a color combination, then you don´t need the expensive CF stuff.

    Take the meridian sound upgrade, electrical seats, parking sensor (or rear camera), nose lift, just stealth finish wheels (no super light) and Alcantara.

    You get so much for the money. With this car and not to much extras you will not have any significant depreciation.


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    AM


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    agree 100% except for the depreciation - 540 will be what the non-S for carrera's are....


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:
    Italo:
    RC:
    Italo:
    Wrong a=gain RC, delivery is delayed just to help the current cars in circulation hold thier value a bit. Audi were producing way too many cars compared to the demand thinking they could compete with the Huracan in terms of depreciation.

    Not true but it is difficult to prove something without saying too much. Smiley

    Also, a car manufacturer delaying delivery intentionally? Seriously? Do you actually know how the car business works? Smiley 

    Are you serious! what is the Ferrari module based on ? Do you think Ferrari can't produce more cars if they want to?

    According to what I know from talks to Ferrari employees, they are very limited by their distribution model, dealers, parts and other issues. Yes, they would make more cars if they would make more money with them but raising production would also raise cost and so far, the current cost/gain analysis seems to work just fine for them. The production is not artificially limited, it is limited by their business and distribution model.

    Now what happened to the 997, over supply killed the 2nd hand value. Now Porsche has tried to rectify this with the 991 by reducing the amount of cars produced.

    I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Smiley

    997 prices depreciated badly due to over supply Smiley

    You sound like those conspiracy theory people who accuse Apple of artificially keeping iPhone production low to raise demand and this is actually a thing I know 100% it isn't true because I

    See what just found it's way into my R8 garage... (let's see if you realize what this is, sorry can't do a close-up).

    Are we now playing Blues Clues here ? Cant see anything apart from the hood of an R8, be more specific or don't post such questions Smiley

    IMG_3410.JPG

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    BjoernB:

    agree 100% except for the depreciation - 540 will be what the non-S for carrera's are....

    you mean a higher depreciation as 570s? I am sure that a 160.000€ 540c will be after 4 years and 40.000 km more then 80.000 € in value.

     


    --

    AM


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Just click on the photo and look around...if you don't see it, I'm fine with it. 

    997 prices didn't depreciate due to oversupply but because the 991 is such a success and tons of (used) cars are available on the market as well.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    ALDO:
    BjoernB:

    agree 100% except for the depreciation - 540 will be what the non-S for carrera's are....

    you mean a higher depreciation as 570s? I am sure that a 160.000€ 540c will be after 4 years and 40.000 km more then 80.000 € in value.

     

    I agree, I doubt that a 540C would fall much under 100k after four years. Unless this car gets a bad reputation somehow.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    KresoF1:

    On both 540C/570S standard exhaust is the same as is optional sport exhaust. Sport exhaust is louder in complete rev range but, basic tone is the same. It is more sporty and agressive tone then in 991.2 Turbo for example.

    Standard tires are P Zero MC1 which are in lastes version similar to P Zero N1 for Porsche.

    Official 0-200km/h is 10.5s for 540C. I can alread tell you that press example that SA got is faster. 540C is as fast in real world in 0-200km/h as 991.2 Turbo and faster in 0-250km/h and 0-300km/h. Since 570S got 27.3s for 0-300km/h in SA you can expect 28.5s-29.0s for 540C. Fast enough IMO, especially for 160K € base price in Germany.

    Here is nice example in Storm Grey with optional Stealth finish forged wheels.

     

    Kreso, thank you so much, excellent color example...my customer wanted to get a silver/grey one because he doesn't want it to be too flashy (coming from a SL500...), so this will be perfect to show him. Smiley


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:

    Just click on the photo and look around...if you don't see it, I'm fine with it. 

    997 prices didn't depreciate due to oversupply but because the 991 is such a success and tons of (used) cars are available on the market as well.

    you mean the "Erlkönig" under the cover far left in your garage? What is it?

    But this is OFF-TOPIC


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    AM


     
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