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    How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    I just bought a tiptronic Carrera S...Although I would have loved a manual transmission..... unfortunately I have to commute in heavy traffic hence I chose a tip. I love the performance of the tip only wish I could launch her a bit harder from a stop light. I tried to brake boost but does not seem to work well. Can anyone suggest a certain technique for a quick launch?
    thanks.

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    sorry no experience with tip. I probably wouldn't do much launching with a brand new car anyway.
    By the way, are you really from India? Are there many roads to "open up" the engine? Just curious

    Enjoy the new ride...

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    You just need a 2500 rpm stall-speed torque converter, a common off-the-shelf performance product. If you had a Ford or a Chevy, no problem.... Oh.....you've got a Porsche.....you're screwed..... Actually, your torque converter can be recalibrated through the ECM, it's just a matter of finding a tuner who can do it. In India? Probably no chance.

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    Not much choices:
    switch tiptronic lever to manual;
    select manually gear 1;
    push the throttle hard,
    and off you go.

    In automatic mode the tiptronic might start in gear 2 depending on the previous driving behavior or it might decide to go back to gear 1 after it recognizes that you pushed the throttle hard. But this might cost some time. Therefore you might go into first gear while in manual mode. You could also manually switch back in first gear WHILE in automatic mode, but the tiptronic might change quickly to gear 2 after the start. For a quick sprint you probably want to stay in the lower gear as long as possible and revv it to the redline. Therefore, the manual setting is the better choice.

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    wOw... I guess thats one way to break in a new car.

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    Hey guys thanks for the replys! I have already put 3000 miles on my car! Bought it about 2 1/2 months ago.
    I have tried to launch on 1st gear manual mode auto mode with PSM switched off..brake boost etc..The only way seems to be with Sport button on and 1st gear manual mode launch.
    I wish it had a launch control system like on the new M5!

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    May I ask what you miss in a 997 tiptronic launch as you described in comparison to the BMW launch control?
    Are you comparing a SMG/DSG to the tip?

    Using a tip auto-tranny converter and starting in first gear with fast revving the engine up will give you almost everything that is possible with that technology. Disengaging the PSM might only yield to loosing traction. That means you are already at the edge what you can achieve without loosing grip of the tires. For physical reasons, I do not think that you can be much faster with the auto-converter. Of course in comparison with a perfect manual start, you loose some power by the auto-tranny and also by the PSM if your tires are about to loose grip.
    However, I doubt that "normal" people (like myself) can launch faster with a manual stick. I have a manual 996TT X50, however I doubt that I can launch faster as someone with a tip (the contrary is true I would probably loose against a boxster on the first meters).

    As Walter Röhrl already answered one time to the question on how to launch fast with a stick: "Revv the engine up to 4500 and fully release the clutch (immediately! not smoothly!)." However, with such starts your clutch will not survive very long. And chances are high that you look stupid by burning the clutch ...

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    hey yah.. are you saying that the auto tranny converter wont make the car's launch faster ? and what do you exactly mean by an auto tranny converter ?

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    The tiptronic is a normal auto tranny. That means it uses a torque converter instead of a clutch. The TC works hydraulically instead of heaving clutch discs on a manual. Just fluids swirling around. Here we loose the typical 5% of performance with the auto.

    However, this is usually negligble as "normal drivers" are usually slower in clutch management.
    Therefore, I just wanted to say that the "normal" tiptronic setup of a Porsche is usually faster at launch in first gear as in a stick car. But maybe this is just my impression and everyone else is true real race driver with better clutch management. At least I have to admit that I am personally not capable of unleashing the power at launch without putting the risk of damaging the clutch. I know that most people do not like to hear this, as many prefer the manual instead of a tip in a Porsche by arguing that they are faster with it. However, I doubt that this is true from standstill and in slower traffic.

    (However, the launch advantage of the tip is later outweighted by the stick after shifting to higher gears. At one point the power loss by the auto tranny gets you.)

    Anyway, my point regarding a launch control and improving the launch itself was: can you really get the performance faster to the street before loosing grip and spinning the tires. My impression was that 1st gear launch auto or stick can already bring you to the physical limit of the tire traction. After launch you might desire to be faster in a higher revv range to have more torque, but this all depends also on the engine characteristics and how it develops its power. Thus, I do not know whether you can get faster launches with the auto tranny and its hydrauliy torque converter by somekind of launch control. The DSG/SMG of BMW and Audi are different things as you there you have an actual clutch. Here, you are able of revving higher and synchronizing clutch release by electronics. Anyway, I am not sure whether this really makes you faster putting the power to the street.

    It is interesting that RC is raving about his wifes new Boxster S and also about the tiptronic in that car. If you manually select gears with the tip it is quite fun and quite fast.

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    911 and Porsche world did a test once. Turns out that most of the time they (testers) were faster with a tip. A tip acceleration is alwasy the same. With a manual there was up to 0.7 seconds between the fastest and the slowest time. They did not get to the Porsche claimed time.

    But still happy driving a manual

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    Quote:
    Zürich said:
    911 and Porsche world did a test once. Turns out that most of the time they (testers) were faster with a tip. A tip acceleration is alwasy the same. With a manual there was up to 0.7 seconds between the fastest and the slowest time. They did not get to the Porsche claimed time.

    But still happy driving a manual



    did they get higher or lower claims?

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    I think I could launch better with a manual but then again we would burn our clutch a lot faster!
    yah....your impression may be true as far as many people cant launch as well as a tip..but the fact remains that Porsche claims a 4.8sec 0-100km in a manual vs tip- 5.3 that tells you that you could take advantage of the phenomenal grip available due to having the engine at the rear...by launching a bit more harder.However tips shift gears faster than most people can esp in sport mode...
    Anyway I love my porsche...and it offers more than just 0-100km times!!

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    Quote:
    randy said:
    yah....your impression may be true as far as many people cant launch as well as a tip..but the fact remains that Porsche claims a 4.8sec 0-100km in a manual vs tip- 5.3 that tells you that you could take advantage of the phenomenal grip available due to having the engine at the rear...by launching a bit more harder.However tips shift gears faster than most people can esp in sport mode...




    I would assume that the 0-100 times do not only depend on the launch time from stand still. Here you have to switch gears and you may suffer from the minimal performance disadvantage of the tip at higher rpms.
    That means I would expect that you need a more powerful engine and not a launch control to be faster on 0-100 with a tip. A Turbo S with tip is just 4.5 s on 0-100. But that is AWD...

    Quote:
    randy said:
    Anyway I love my porsche...and it offers more than just 0-100km times!!



    Wise words

    It is sad that people always try to boil everything down to a single figure: 0-100, top speed, "the ring" time, the exclusivity etc. etc. It is always a combination of several things and a personal preference to a certain car.
    Maybe, we should just be happy with the cars we love. Even if people love different cars.

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    There's no way that a Tip is faster launching than a manual, period, unless the driver of the manual is overtly paranoid of doing a proper launch.

    We've spoken alot here about how you can POTENTIALLY achieve rocket-blast-force launches by revving high and pummelling your driveline. But don't over-react to those discussions, and think that all 1st gear launches in a manual shift car will be cataclysmic.

    You can still launch a manual car like the dickens, effectively, without killing your clutch. Of course, you don't want to do it over and over and over again 100 times in a row, but most drag races only require one launch anyhow. Do you refrain from taking one corner briskly, because you're worried about tire wear?

    If you were sitting at a light, and a guy in a Tip 997S pulls next to you, revving your manual shift 997 to 2500-3500 and letting her go will not destroy your car, or boil the clutch, and you'll hole-shot the buhjeezus out of the Tiptronic car, which has to spool up practically from idle, as its torque converter will fight and limit the driver as to how far they can rev it with their foot on the brake. Not alot. The manual allows you to rev the car up into it's power range, hence when the clutch is engaged, you've got more power churning the rear wheels right from the get-go. The art of the launch is modulating clutch-slip and wheel-spin such that the launch is optimized, and you don't bog it back down to lower revs. If you bog, you're basically just simulating what a launch with a Tip is like every time. Why do you think Ferrari's "launch control" tapdances the clutch and the tires with the engine at 8500 rpm? To take full advantage of the power available, and to make the tires the limiting factor, that's why. With the Tip, you're forced to start at a low rpm, and the resulting low horsepower and torque at launch is your limiting factor. Your tires aren't even CLOSE to losing grip, which means you're leaving a ton of acceleration potential unused. With the manual, you can keep revs right in the meat of the power band, and the tires thusly become the limiting factor. MUCH FASTER. The huge disparity between the factory's 0-100 kmh times is not so much due to the lesser efficiency of the fluid-controlled auto, as it is the time wasted waiting for the car to get spooled up to an adequate rpm. The performance "sap" of an automatic increases exponentially, as the gear ratio decreases and speed increases. Yes, it contributes to the Tip's lesser performance, but not to the extent of a half second 0-100 kmh. 5% loss of rear wheel horsepower does not explain a 10% slower elapsed time. Purpose-built drag cars with automatic transmissions employ the use of specially-built torque converters that do not begin transferring power to the rear wheels until the engine has reached a specified RPM. Torque converters come in a wide range of "stall speeds" (the RPM speed at which the torque converter begins engagement), to match the torque and horsepower characteristics of the race motor. The higher up the rev range that a motor makes its power, the higher the stall-speed of the converter. They can also calibrate how "hard" the converter engages, which basically simulates the amount of "clutch slip" you would use in a manual shift car. If the car has a ton of traction with a good chassis, they'll calibrate the converter to hit HARD. If the car has a tendency to spin, due to bad traction or too much horsepower, they'll calibrate the converter to engage softer, like slipping a clutch, so that the rear tires are not shocked. To give you an idea of what it's all like, you put the transmission in Drive, and push the gas pedal. The car will not begin moving anywhere until the rpm's reach 3500 rpm, or 4000 rpm, or whereever the converter is set to kick in. Then it finally starts to roll. It allows drag racers to have the best of both worlds. An automatic tranny for consistancy, that launches out of the hole like a manual transmission would. The torque converter in the Porsche Tip is not calibrated in any such way, it basically engages right off of the 800 rpm idle. Since the 997 does not make good power down low on the rev range (it's no diesel, and it's no big-block American V-8), you are very slow from the moment you start rolling, until you finally get into the engine's good power curve. Sorry so long!!!!

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    ok i get da picture...but what if i fix a torque converter that will make the tip start from 2500 rpm will that make it fast as da manual ? and would that effect my 997s warranty? If it wont thats the first thing ill be doing to my 997s!

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    Quote:
    kickdown said:
    ok i get da picture...but what if i fix a torque converter that will make the tip start from 2500 rpm will that make it fast as da manual ? and would that effect my 997s warranty? If it wont thats the first thing ill be doing to my 997s!


    Then the car will only be good for racing.

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    well if its going to be good only for racing there is no point of doing it. But why would that be ? Anyone here fixed a torque converter on his porsche ??

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    if it was an older typre of auto tranny. you put the car in netural, rev the engine to the rev u wanna start, then shift into D.

    but i think nowadays u hv to press the brake as well to shift into D.
    just my experience.

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    Guess we dont have very many options....I wonder if tuning companies can offer a more aggressive launch program through re-tune of the ECU?

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    If you floor the throttle in neutral on a Tip car, the revs won't rise higher than 4K or so. That is an artificial rev limiter that Porsche put in as that is the limit the Tip box can take from a dead start, much like Walter Rohrl's advic on crack starting a manual.

    I would suggest, you hold the pedal to the floor in Neutral, (you'll get a max of 4K rpm or so), then pull the stick into Drive and see how well you launch. I imagine Porsche have tested and designed tip to take this sort of traetment, hence they wouldn't have put a RPM limiter which only acts when the car is in Neutral.

    Cheers,

    JZ

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    Quote:
    JZ said:
    I would suggest, you hold the pedal to the floor in Neutral, (you'll get a max of 4K rpm or so), then pull the stick into Drive and see how well you launch. I imagine Porsche have tested and designed tip to take this sort of traetment, hence they wouldn't have put a RPM limiter which only acts when the car is in Neutral. JZ


    I would recommend doing that right near the dealership so you'll be able to push the car to the service department right after that.

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    Quote:
    JZ said:
    I would suggest, you hold the pedal to the floor in Neutral, (you'll get a max of 4K rpm or so), then pull the stick into Drive and see how well you launch. I imagine Porsche have tested and designed tip to take this sort of traetment, hence they wouldn't have put a RPM limiter which only acts when the car is in Neutral. JZ


    I would recommend doing that right near the dealership so you'll be able to push the car to the service department right after that.




    Fair enough, but thats what the BMW lauch control basically does. Hold the revs at the maximum permitted RPM for a start, then opens the clutch.

    I don't imagine Porsche have ignored the possibility of Customers doing this. Otherwise, why would they set an RPM limit on the throttle when the car is in Neutral??????

    You'll only know if you try (preferably with someone elses car)

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    Quote:
    JZ said:
    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    Quote:
    JZ said:
    I would suggest, you hold the pedal to the floor in Neutral, (you'll get a max of 4K rpm or so), then pull the stick into Drive and see how well you launch. I imagine Porsche have tested and designed tip to take this sort of traetment, hence they wouldn't have put a RPM limiter which only acts when the car is in Neutral. JZ


    I would recommend doing that right near the dealership so you'll be able to push the car to the service department right after that.


    Fair enough, but thats what the BMW lauch control basically does. Hold the revs at the maximum permitted RPM for a start, then opens the clutch.
    I don't imagine Porsche have ignored the possibility of Customers doing this. Otherwise, why would they set an RPM limit on the throttle when the car is in Neutral??????
    You'll only know if you try (preferably with someone elses car)


    I guess they have a rev limiter to keep you from overrevving the engine. There are a lot of things that you can do to destroy a car that the manufacturers haven't mechanically tried to prevent. Just because you can do something to your car, doesn't mean it's okay to do it. Ask the local Porsche service manager his opinion. Do it in person so you can see the look on his face.

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    LowPolarMoment said:

    I guess they have a rev limiter to keep you from overrevving the engine. There are a lot of things that you can do to destroy a car that the manufacturers haven't mechanically tried to prevent. Just because you can do something to your car, doesn't mean it's okay to do it. Ask the local Porsche service manager his opinion. Do it in person so you can see the look on his face.



    In fairness, I think thats completely wrong. If it was true, howcome the manual has no such restriction.

    I'm not saying this is a manouvre that I would support, but is probabely something you could get away with if a really quick start was important to you. I don't think the Tip would give up the ghost with one start in this manner (just like a manual clutch won't), but I guess that repeated starts in this manner will result in a trip to see your service manager.


    My point, is that the 997/987 tip could deal with a start in this manner a few times, just like a clutch could, before it becomes a smoking hole in the arse end of the car.

    The reason for my thoughts on this? Porsches 4k rpm limit on a tip car whilst in neutral.

    This STILL doesn't mean I wold do it to my car if I had a Tip. Just that, in theory, it could be done.

    Cheers,

    JZ

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    Quote:
    JZ said:
    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    Quote:
    JZ said:
    I would suggest, you hold the pedal to the floor in Neutral, (you'll get a max of 4K rpm or so), then pull the stick into Drive and see how well you launch. I imagine Porsche have tested and designed tip to take this sort of traetment, hence they wouldn't have put a RPM limiter which only acts when the car is in Neutral. JZ


    I would recommend doing that right near the dealership so you'll be able to push the car to the service department right after that.



    Ha...ha..ha I doubt anyone would take a chance on a transmission replacement...a clutch is a lot easier and cheaper to replace!

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    I have a solution, strap it to the Space Shuttle. Talk about a launch!!!

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    Quote:
    JZ said:
    LowPolarMoment said:

    I guess they have a rev limiter to keep you from overrevving the engine. There are a lot of things that you can do to destroy a car that the manufacturers haven't mechanically tried to prevent. Just because you can do something to your car, doesn't mean it's okay to do it. Ask the local Porsche service manager his opinion. Do it in person so you can see the look on his face.


    In fairness, I think thats completely wrong. If it was true, howcome the manual has no such restriction.JZ


    I just read my manual. I doesn't say I shouldn't drive the car into a lake or over a cliff either. That the manual doesn't forbid something is hardly the same as the manual approving it.

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    JZ, No offense intended, but your comments are misguided by an apparent lack of understanding in things mechanical.... at least transmissions.

    1. First off, derder is misinformed, it has NEVER been advisable or appropriate to free-rev an automatic transmission, and then drop it into gear. Not in old cars, not in new cars. It IS a common practice among high-schoolers with little more than mush between their ears, and will grenade an automatic transmission in short order. They do it because they have zero idea or concept how mechanical things work or break, until they break them and go "oops".

    2. I've never pondered why manufactures today limit the free-rev of the motor whilst in neutral, but it's likely an attempt to at least LIMIT the amount of potential abuse aforementioned mush-twixt-the-ears teenagers can unleash dropping their dad's Porsche into drive with their foot flooring the gas pedal. I would guess that at redline, such a move would be catastrophic. At 4,000 rpm, Porsche probably determined that the tranny might "survive". BUT, I assure you, not for long, not repeatedly. Also, during sporting or track driving, there's the possibility that the driver might "overshoot" drive while shifting the auto manually, or that a passenger may inadvertently bump the shift lever into neutral. In any event, the natural reaction would be to panic and cram the car back into drive, without thinking to lift-off the gas pedal. That 4,000 rpm neutral limit is simply a safety-net for all sorts of potential disasters relating to the fragility inherant in automatic trannies.

    3. Comparing dropping an automatic transmission into drive.... with dropping the clutch on a manual transmission (be it a true manual, or an F1 with launch control where a computer operates the throwout bearing) is just wrong. An automatic operates completely different than a manual, and there is NO CLUTCH. So don't point at an F1 controlled-clutch launch, and think it's no different than dropping an auto tranny into drive. You're talking about two totally different mouse-trap designs and methods of operation.

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    Quote:
    JZ said:
    LowPolarMoment said:

    I guess they have a rev limiter to keep you from overrevving the engine. There are a lot of things that you can do to destroy a car that the manufacturers haven't mechanically tried to prevent. Just because you can do something to your car, doesn't mean it's okay to do it. Ask the local Porsche service manager his opinion. Do it in person so you can see the look on his face.


    In fairness, I think thats completely wrong. If it was true, howcome the manual has no such restriction.JZ


    I just read my manual. I doesn't say I shouldn't drive the car into a lake or over a cliff either. That the manual doesn't forbid something is hardly the same as the manual approving it.



    D'oh. Our language is getting mixed up here. When I say manual, I mean manual transmission, not the handbook.

    Clearly I wouldn't drive off a cliff because the handbook doesn't say not to. I, unlike some of the folk who feature in the annual American Darwin awards, have some common sense.

    Re: How to launch a 997 S Tiptronic hard?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    I've never pondered why manufactures today limit the free-rev of the motor whilst in neutral, but it's likely an attempt to at least LIMIT the amount of potential abuse aforementioned mush-twixt-the-ears teenagers can unleash dropping their dad's Porsche into drive with their foot flooring the gas pedal. I would guess that at redline, such a move would be catastrophic. At 4,000 rpm, Porsche probably determined that the tranny might "survive". BUT, I assure you, not for long, not repeatedly.



    Thats what I said, I believe.

    My post stated, that it wouldn't be something you could do repeatedly, more likely it is something that Tip could probably take once or twice.

    At the end of the day, if the bloke who started this post wants a quicker start. He should have bought a manual car.

    As an addition, I believe BMW state that their SMG lauch control is not something that should be done very often, similar to having the SMG shift set to its most vicious setting. They place some disclaimer somewhere that says these modes are for occasional use.

    and

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:Also, during sporting or track driving, there's the possibility that the driver might "overshoot" drive while shifting the auto manually, or that a passenger may inadvertently bump the shift lever into neutral. In any event, the natural reaction would be to panic and cram the car back into drive, without thinking to lift-off the gas pedal. That 4,000 rpm neutral limit is simply a safety-net for all sorts of potential disasters relating to the fragility inherant in automatic trannies.



    With respect, I don't think the tip 4K rev limit is going to save anything in that particular instance. But, then again, the shift won't move withou pressing the button, and all manual shifting these days is via the steering wheel.


    The Tiptronic box in a Porsche is more of a cruisey style box, not the rapid fire DSG/SMG style semi auto alot of people are hankering for. So sporty performance from it is never really going to set your hair on fire. This is a gearbox that makes the 987S slower than the manual (NOT HANDBOOK) 987 2.7.

    Cheers,

    JZ

     
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