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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    TB993tt:
    RC:
    A R8 from Audi makes no sense in my opinion, the RS models would have been enough to improve the brand awareness.

     

    I was discussing this last night with a friend who works for BMW and bemoans the fact that they (BMW) do not have a halo car like the R8 to improve the image of the lowlier models.

    BMW is a different story...they are not part of a larger company conglomerate like Audi or Porsche. A super sports car would make sense for them, like another M1. I never understood the i8, this car is basically "dead" in Germany (apparently it has more success in the US) but if they would take the base idea of the i8 and combine it with the right engine choice, well...

    I was interested in a TV advert they are showing in the UK at the moment which features an orange R8 doing donuts and leaving the four Audi hoops in tyre marks, I was struck by how the orange R8 used is photographed so that the angles make it look like it could be any generic Audi, of course not completely but it seems they are attempting to reach out to other potential Audi owners with their halo model.

    I do not think that Audi owners identify themselves with the R8 in any way. I may be wrong though since I'm not the typical Audi owner (the R8 is my first Audi since that first A3 over 25 years or so ago...). For me, it is a huge advantage that the R8 is an Audi because acceptance in my social environment is much better. Not a fan of the slightly boring design though, I like the front of the Huracan much better and even the back of the Huracan is a bit more inspired than the R8 back side. Audi had to stay an Audi, so they compromised. I am glad they didn't compromise on the driving experience though.

    A friend of mine got an R8 V10 as a loaner when his Huracan was in for work and he really thought it boring and uninspiring, I am waiting with interest to see what RC thinks of his following the usual honeymoon period Smiley 

    Tell your friend that he has a brand problem. The Huracan and the R8 feel completely the same, if he would close his eyes, he wouldn't notice any difference. Drove both cars back to back. Oh wait...the Huracan I drove had more understeer than the Audi but the car was equipped with semi-slicks. Both cars share over 70%(!) of parts (another source even claimed over 80% parts), the engine, the chassis, the brake system, the gearbox, the cooling system, everything is identical. Also, Lamborghini did not set up the Huracan chassis in a different manner and the engine/exhaust sound isn't different either. Absolutely 100% the same, believe it or not. One reason I love the R8 so much. Yes, the Huracan is much lighter than the R8 because it uses less dampening material and more carbon parts under the "shell" but even that, you cannot feel when you drive both. I expected to be very disappointed with the R8 when I switched to the Huracan (my Audi dealer is also a Lamborghini dealer...) but... Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Whoopsy:
     

    Porsche knows their clients' demographic well, they treated US dealers like royalties, they will turn a blind eye to whatever they do. They will just be the bad apples among their faithful clients. For the other 91% of 918 owners who got an R, they also bought the RS, the GT4 and countless other Porsche cars, future and present,, it's a bet Porsche made and paid off well.

    True but they still make more money with their Cayenne and Macans. Smiley Why? Because they appeal to a "broader" customer base.

    "Normal' customers can bitch all they want, but they are not the ones that buy 4-6 Porsche's a year, they buy one every 4 years or something. I guess I could be counted as a typical high end Porache customer, after the 918 I bought the RS, I skipped the GT4 but I bought the GT4 ClubSport, I also have an R coming, a Cayenne Turbo S arriving in Sept, deposit down for the next GT3, the next Panamera Turbo S, and the Misson E. That's 6 cars right there after the 918.

    The truth hurts.

    No, I get that. However, I think that they would sell more cars without this strategy, believe it or not.

    In the past, many "ordinary" Porsche customers were owning a 911 as a fun car and a Cayenne as the family SUV. Maybe even a Boxster on top for the wife. This has changed a lot over the past couple of years. Many "ordinary" Porsche customers cannot afford anymore to own both, so they started to choose one Porsche. I do not want to know how many customers Porsche lost because their cars are less affordable now and maybe because they even lack certain products (like that 960 I mentioned, a 6 series/S class Coupe competitor or a just more affordable SUVs). 

    I understand your view of things but you are not the typical Porsche customer, you are a VIP customer. How many VIP customers are out there? Even if each of them would buy six cars each year, which I highly doubt, they do not come even close to what "ordinary" Porsche customers spend in total with the brand every year and you know that.

    Just look in this forum: Many people who love Porsche buy other brands as well...or instead. I agree, Porsche knows their customers well but maybe not well enough. Once they are gone, they may not come back and this is a serious problem, one they may not see right now but it will come up later on. The competition isn't sleeping either.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Targa Tim:
    Whoopsy:

     I guess I could be counted as a typical high end Porache customer, after the 918 I bought the RS, I skipped the GT4 but I bought the GT4 ClubSport, I also have an R coming, a Cayenne Turbo S arriving in Sept, deposit down for the next GT3, the next Panamera Turbo S, and the Misson E. That's 6 cars right there after the 918.
    --

    Wow, that's quite a Porsche collection Nick!

    But I will still have more blue Porsches than you.indecision

    I am curious. What's your average annual miles per car? Let me guess 200 miles ;) but I am sure if you have a huge garage it looks ugly when empty.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    RC:
    Whoopsy:
     

    Porsche knows their clients' demographic well, they treated US dealers like royalties, they will turn a blind eye to whatever they do. They will just be the bad apples among their faithful clients. For the other 91% of 918 owners who got an R, they also bought the RS, the GT4 and countless other Porsche cars, future and present,, it's a bet Porsche made and paid off well.

    True but they still make more money with their Cayenne and Macans. Smiley Why? Because they appeal to a "broader" customer base.

    "Normal' customers can bitch all they want, but they are not the ones that buy 4-6 Porsche's a year, they buy one every 4 years or something. I guess I could be counted as a typical high end Porache customer, after the 918 I bought the RS, I skipped the GT4 but I bought the GT4 ClubSport, I also have an R coming, a Cayenne Turbo S arriving in Sept, deposit down for the next GT3, the next Panamera Turbo S, and the Misson E. That's 6 cars right there after the 918.

    The truth hurts.

    No, I get that. However, I think that they would sell more cars without this strategy, believe it or not.

    In the past, many "ordinary" Porsche customers were owning a 911 as a fun car and a Cayenne as the family SUV. Maybe even a Boxster on top for the wife. This has changed a lot over the past couple of years. Many "ordinary" Porsche customers cannot afford anymore to own both, so they started to choose one Porsche. I do not want to know how many customers Porsche lost because their cars are less affordable now and maybe because they even lack certain products (like that 960 I mentioned, a 6 series/S class Coupe competitor or a just more affordable SUVs). 

    I understand your view of things but you are not the typical Porsche customer, you are a VIP customer. How many VIP customers are out there? Even if each of them would buy six cars each year, which I highly doubt, they do not come even close to what "ordinary" Porsche customers spend in total with the brand every year and you know that.

    Just look in this forum: Many people who love Porsche buy other brands as well...or instead. I agree, Porsche knows their customers well but maybe not well enough. Once they are gone, they may not come back and this is a serious problem, one they may not see right now but it will come up later on. The competition isn't sleeping either.

    The car industry is getting more narrow. It is not enough anymore just to sell the myth and brand. Most cars are offering similar systems and assistants from same vendors. What happened:

    1. In the Sports Cars segment, firms like McLaren or Audi could start from scratch building a completely new sports car with enormous performance. Even Ferrari is overthinking each generation and starting on a new platform is necessary. Porsche is still sticking to the original layout like the last 50 years. On top of it, the car was getting as comfy as a luxury sedan. What it would need is a new layout as successor to the 911. A car based on the 918 concept with a higher production volume and lower price. 
    2. In the SUV/Sedan area - Porsche is light years behind. Many advanced assistants and technology you can find in its competitors you can't find at Porsche. Even the new Panamera still doesnt offer a head up display and the lane assistant is not an semi-autonomy assistant like we now it form the E-Class, S-Class, Volvo or Tesla, it is still the same system you find in a VW Golf. There are many other things where Porsche is just a generation behind. What it would need is to be trend setter and innovation leader. I can't see it. 

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Lars997:
    RC:
    Whoopsy:
     

    Porsche knows their clients' demographic well, they treated US dealers like royalties, they will turn a blind eye to whatever they do. They will just be the bad apples among their faithful clients. For the other 91% of 918 owners who got an R, they also bought the RS, the GT4 and countless other Porsche cars, future and present,, it's a bet Porsche made and paid off well.

    True but they still make more money with their Cayenne and Macans. Smiley Why? Because they appeal to a "broader" customer base.

    "Normal' customers can bitch all they want, but they are not the ones that buy 4-6 Porsche's a year, they buy one every 4 years or something. I guess I could be counted as a typical high end Porache customer, after the 918 I bought the RS, I skipped the GT4 but I bought the GT4 ClubSport, I also have an R coming, a Cayenne Turbo S arriving in Sept, deposit down for the next GT3, the next Panamera Turbo S, and the Misson E. That's 6 cars right there after the 918.

    The truth hurts.

    No, I get that. However, I think that they would sell more cars without this strategy, believe it or not.

    In the past, many "ordinary" Porsche customers were owning a 911 as a fun car and a Cayenne as the family SUV. Maybe even a Boxster on top for the wife. This has changed a lot over the past couple of years. Many "ordinary" Porsche customers cannot afford anymore to own both, so they started to choose one Porsche. I do not want to know how many customers Porsche lost because their cars are less affordable now and maybe because they even lack certain products (like that 960 I mentioned, a 6 series/S class Coupe competitor or a just more affordable SUVs). 

    I understand your view of things but you are not the typical Porsche customer, you are a VIP customer. How many VIP customers are out there? Even if each of them would buy six cars each year, which I highly doubt, they do not come even close to what "ordinary" Porsche customers spend in total with the brand every year and you know that.

    Just look in this forum: Many people who love Porsche buy other brands as well...or instead. I agree, Porsche knows their customers well but maybe not well enough. Once they are gone, they may not come back and this is a serious problem, one they may not see right now but it will come up later on. The competition isn't sleeping either.

    The car industry is getting more narrow. It is not enough anymore just to sell the myth and brand. Most cars are offering similar systems and assistants from same vendors. What happened:

    1. In the Sports Cars segment, firms like McLaren or Audi could start from scratch building a completely new sports car with enormous performance. Even Ferrari is overthinking each generation and starting on a new platform is necessary. Porsche is still sticking to the original layout like the last 50 years. On top of it, the car was getting as comfy as a luxury sedan. What it would need is a new layout as successor to the 911. A car based on the 918 concept with a higher production volume and lower price. 
    2. In the SUV/Sedan area - Porsche is light years behind. Many advanced assistants and technology you can find in its competitors you can't find at Porsche. Even the new Panamera still doesnt offer a head up display and the lane assistant is not an semi-autonomy assistant like we now it form the E-Class, S-Class, Volvo or Tesla, it is still the same system you find in a VW Golf. There are many other things where Porsche is just a generation behind. What it would need is to be trend setter and innovation leader. I can't see it. 

     

    Very very well said! The problem is that Porsche is only interested in $$$$$, as long as there are thousands of "uneducated, brand oriented and undemanding" customers why bother investing heavy amounts in R&D and try to innovate. I would personally never ever buy a Cayenne, Panamera or Macan (even if I like the design). Value for money is just way behind competiton. Same goes for their dealerships...the number of Swiss customers that are not satisfied with the quality of work done at their dealership is increasing every single day. I personally know at least five 991 and Cayenne owners that have stopped going to the dealership...


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Whoopsy:

    "Normal' customers can bitch all they want, but they are not the ones that buy 4-6 Porsche's a year, they buy one every 4 years or something. I guess I could be counted as a typical high end Porache customer, after the 918 I bought the RS, I skipped the GT4 but I bought the GT4 ClubSport, I also have an R coming, a Cayenne Turbo S arriving in Sept, deposit down for the next GT3, the next Panamera Turbo S, and the Misson E. That's 6 cars right there after the 918.

    That's a spectacular lineup you'll haveSmiley. What about the GT2 RS?Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    DocMo:
    Targa Tim:
    Whoopsy:

     I guess I could be counted as a typical high end Porache customer, after the 918 I bought the RS, I skipped the GT4 but I bought the GT4 ClubSport, I also have an R coming, a Cayenne Turbo S arriving in Sept, deposit down for the next GT3, the next Panamera Turbo S, and the Misson E. That's 6 cars right there after the 918.
    --

    Wow, that's quite a Porsche collection Nick!

    But I will still have more blue Porsches than you.indecision

    I am curious. What's your average annual miles per car? Let me guess 200 miles ;) but I am sure if you have a huge garage it looks ugly when empty.

     

    I averaged around 20,000km a year, the bulk of which soaked up by the 2 Ferraris and the G wagon and not to mention the van. 

    For the past year, however, the GT3RS got a lot of attention, coming up 6000km, the 918 actually got neglected and only put on perhaps 700km only. 

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    RC:
    Whoopsy:
     

    Porsche knows their clients' demographic well, they treated US dealers like royalties, they will turn a blind eye to whatever they do. They will just be the bad apples among their faithful clients. For the other 91% of 918 owners who got an R, they also bought the RS, the GT4 and countless other Porsche cars, future and present,, it's a bet Porsche made and paid off well.

    True but they still make more money with their Cayenne and Macans. Smiley Why? Because they appeal to a "broader" customer base.

    "Normal' customers can bitch all they want, but they are not the ones that buy 4-6 Porsche's a year, they buy one every 4 years or something. I guess I could be counted as a typical high end Porache customer, after the 918 I bought the RS, I skipped the GT4 but I bought the GT4 ClubSport, I also have an R coming, a Cayenne Turbo S arriving in Sept, deposit down for the next GT3, the next Panamera Turbo S, and the Misson E. That's 6 cars right there after the 918.

    The truth hurts.

    No, I get that. However, I think that they would sell more cars without this strategy, believe it or not.

    In the past, many "ordinary" Porsche customers were owning a 911 as a fun car and a Cayenne as the family SUV. Maybe even a Boxster on top for the wife. This has changed a lot over the past couple of years. Many "ordinary" Porsche customers cannot afford anymore to own both, so they started to choose one Porsche. I do not want to know how many customers Porsche lost because their cars are less affordable now and maybe because they even lack certain products (like that 960 I mentioned, a 6 series/S class Coupe competitor or a just more affordable SUVs). 

    I understand your view of things but you are not the typical Porsche customer, you are a VIP customer. How many VIP customers are out there? Even if each of them would buy six cars each year, which I highly doubt, they do not come even close to what "ordinary" Porsche customers spend in total with the brand every year and you know that.

    Just look in this forum: Many people who love Porsche buy other brands as well...or instead. I agree, Porsche knows their customers well but maybe not well enough. Once they are gone, they may not come back and this is a serious problem, one they may not see right now but it will come up later on. The competition isn't sleeping either.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     

    Christian, 

    I know what you would like to have. But Porsche loves at first step money. And when you look at this numbers, you have to admit they are doing right. Regardless if someone can only afford one Porsche, they are so many other which can. 

    Finanzen

           

    Umsatz

    Millionen Euro

    21.533

    17.205

    14.326

    Bilanzsumme

    Millionen Euro

    29.143

    26.060

    24.560

    Eigenkapital

    Millionen Euro

    10.700

    9.599

    9.039

    Anlagevermögen

    Millionen Euro

    11.009

    9.691

    8.539

    Investitionen 2)

    Millionen Euro

    2.427

    2.114

    2.236

    Materialaufwand

    Millionen Euro

    12.095

    10.405

    8.282

    Abschreibungen

    Millionen Euro

    2.124

    1.878

    1.415

    Cashflow aus laufender Geschäftstätigkeit

    Millionen Euro

    3.843

    3.179

    2.917

    Operatives Ergebnis (EBIT)

    Millionen Euro

    3.404

    2.719

    2.579

    Ergebnis vor Steuern

    Millionen Euro

    3.382

    3.060

    2.784

    Ergebnis nach Steuern

    Millionen Euro

    2.335

    2.201

    1.939

     

    They have earned 3.382.000.000 Euros. And have give to our country about 1.000.000.000 Euros. 


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    AM


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    RS 991:
    Whoopsy:

    "Normal' customers can bitch all they want, but they are not the ones that buy 4-6 Porsche's a year, they buy one every 4 years or something. I guess I could be counted as a typical high end Porache customer, after the 918 I bought the RS, I skipped the GT4 but I bought the GT4 ClubSport, I also have an R coming, a Cayenne Turbo S arriving in Sept, deposit down for the next GT3, the next Panamera Turbo S, and the Misson E. That's 6 cars right there after the 918.

    That's a spectacular lineup you'll haveSmiley. What about the GT2 RS?Smiley

     

    Honestly I am not sure about that one. It will be a nice 'investment', but I think it will be a handful to drive and there is no where here to put to use all that performance except on my track, but then again on the track I will likely have more fun in the track car. 

    After the 918 I stopped chasing the HP, the F12 is borderline crazy, 700+ going to rear wheels only. It's a lovely car to drive daily but needs to be sensible on the right foot. The 500HP GT3RS on the other hand is VERY usable, but the interior is not. I don't live in Germany with unrestricted roads, the top end is useless to me.

    If my guess is correct, the GT2RS will be just like the GT3RS interior-wise, but with perhaps the power level of the F12, maybe a little less, and also without the linear power delivery of the F12. 

    I am slowly warming up to the R, I think 500HP is the sweet spot for 2wd sports cars that gets driving on the street, especially outside of Germany. The .2 GT3 will also be at that power level so I think Porsche is on to something.

     

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Adnan, I didn't say Porsche isn't doing well but I think their strategy could use an overhaul, especially in the sports car segment. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Whoopsy:
    absent:
    Lars997:
    absent:
    RC:
     

    1. Instead of making 911 fans happy and make a 911 R available to everyone who wants one, they make it limited edition. I would have gladly paid more to have the 911 R tech in my 991.1 GTS.

    Instead they decided to aggravate enthusiasts by showing that car off and promoting exposure in major magazines and making it available only to a small group of "priviledged" 918 guys (in US at least).

    The bulk of Porsche fans who would love to get the 911R and enjoy it, would not have been able to afford the 918 to begin with, just to be allowed to purchase more affordable cars.

    YEP - Realize it guys! The biggest mistake we made is that we didn't order a 918. I remember very well that it took ages for Porsche to sell those cars. In the beginning they been sitting  like old bread! Today, you could have earned a nice amount and on top of it you would have been able to buy an GT3RS, GT4, Boxster Spyder, 991R. On each you could have made nice money again and again and also enjoying some serious fun!

    Here is the problem, like a vast majority of Porsche enthusiasts, I simply could not afford to buy the 918, no matter how badly I wanted that car.

    I can easily afford a 911R though  but am not allowed to buy it since I did not spent close to a $million on the 918.

    I don't think it's fair and turns me off regarding any future purchases from this manufacturer.

    And that's why the next GT3 will have manual as an option!

    90% of the people that don't have the R but wanted the R want it for the wrong reason, they smell the appreciating price potential.

    For 90% of the owners of the 918 who got an R, they don't give a shit about the potentially higher selling price on the secondary market, their other investment will make that sum in a month or a day. Of that 10% left, 90% of that 10% will be US dealers who flips them. Which also gives 918 owners a bad name from that 9%.

    Porsche knows their clients' demographic well, they treated US dealers like royalties, they will turn a blind eye to whatever they do. They will just be the bad apples among their faithful clients. For the other 91% of 918 owners who got an R, they also bought the RS, the GT4 and countless other Porsche cars, future and present,, it's a bet Porsche made and paid off well.

    "Normal' customers can bitch all they want, but they are not the ones that buy 4-6 Porsche's a year, they buy one every 4 years or something. I guess I could be counted as a typical high end Porache customer, after the 918 I bought the RS, I skipped the GT4 but I bought the GT4 ClubSport, I also have an R coming, a Cayenne Turbo S arriving in Sept, deposit down for the next GT3, the next Panamera Turbo S, and the Misson E. That's 6 cars right there after the 918.

    The truth hurts.


    --No idea where you get that 90% number, was there a poll made?

    I'm only looking at what is happening in my neck of woods and here, ALL 3 918 owners (elderly gentlemen), do not own their 918s anymore, they sold their allocations for GT3RS and R back to dealer before even taking delivery.

    Granted, I did not buy as many Porsches as you did but 15 911s (incl 4Turbos) since 1999 should count for something?

     

     

     

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    RC:

    Adnan, I didn't say Porsche isn't doing well but I think their strategy could use an overhaul, especially in the sports car segment. Smiley

    And doing good doesn't meen that you can do even better! Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Porsche knows their market, but sometimes they cannot react to it. Their hands are tied one way or another.

    The Motorsport NA engine is not fuel efficient, they needed the regular turbo-ed cars to bring down the average fuel economy. If they make more of the NA cars then the average will skewed up. It doesn't help that their SUV is their best sellers which already skew the average up. And a manual Motorsport NA car is also worse on the fuel economy cycle than a PDK.

    That engine also cost more, how high can they price a car? Their current lineup is already up there and the public is not reacting too well.

    Of course they know a whole bunch of their customers loved a manual in a GT car, could they have made more R? Of course, but not much more. They are confined to factory build slots, Stuttgart factory is pretty much maxed out on production, and parts availability, a lot of those parts like the engine and the roof is being soaked up by the demand on the GT3RS. Other parts are restrained by their suppliers, the single plate clutch for example, a lot of the orders got that option deleted and even wit hey late build in Oct it is still not a confirmed option. The lithium battery option is another, they actually took that off the option list and on car orders. The car will also only be done in 2016, it will need to be re-certified again if it span more than one model year. 

    Porsche knows there is a hot demand for a "R" type of car after the R fiasco. So perhaps they will do one in the .2 series as a regular non-limited car, a GT3 sans wing. But it will likely be production limited also. There just isn't enough production slots available in the Stuttgart factory. If they make more of these 'gas guzzling' sports car, it means they make less of the more fuel economy ones, skewing their fuel economy average again. Didn't help that they bring back all the Cayman/Boxster production back to Stuttgart.

    One solution might be to get a 3rd factory going, or buy up more land around Stuttgart to expand, but with the diesel gate, there aren't a lot of 'free' money to go around. 


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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    As I agree to most what you say I want to add - all those boundaries not necessarily stops you to innovate and think around the corner. Doing things different, this is what made the company successful mid 90s. It is time to think outside the box again!


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    absent:

    --No idea where you get that 90% number, was there a poll made?

    I'm only looking at what is happening in my neck of woods and here, ALL 3 918 owners (elderly gentlemen), do not own their 918s anymore, they sold their allocations for GT3RS and R back to dealer before even taking delivery.

    Granted, I did not buy as many Porsches as you did but 15 911s (incl 4Turbos) since 1999 should count for something?

     

    Believe it or not, through my Porsche connections and the 918 owners group and the 918 Spyder Circle, I had a pretty good gauge on the owners.

    For those that can afford a 918 in the first place, most of them will be considered a serial car buyer, they keep buy cars and keep selling them after a while, some will collect, but not the norm. 

    The US VIP program already kicked out a bunch of guys for abuse of the program, some lost their privilege after selling their 918s, their VIP list is down to about 240, or even less now. When it first started it was around 270-280. But quite a few of those remaining are dealer principals, so they are untouchable, Porsche wouldn't dare to go against their dealers. 

    With your purchase history, you should have been a VIP at your dealer, they should have been the one taking care of you, if they didn't then they are just a bad dealer. Remember, the real customer of Porsche is their dealers, the dealers buy cars from Porsche first then sell it to you, a customer like us is actually a customer of their dealers, not Porsche directly. PCNA will have power over their dealers and you should report their bad behaviours to PCNA.

     


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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Whoopsy:
    I think 500HP is the sweet spot for 2wd sports cars that gets driving on the street, especially outside of Germany. The .2 GT3 will also be at that power level so I think Porsche is on to something. 

    I can't disagree, but the problem with 500hp NA motor is that it becomes 400hp or less as soon as it arrives in Colorado Smiley 

    So, I need to buy a GT3 to have GT4 power up here...

    But, I'd still rather have the sharp throttle response of an NA motor even if it means sacrificing so much power compared to a turbo (but it will be humbling for many to have the base 991.2 Carreras and 718's passing everyone).  I guess once everything becomes electrified, the altitude will no longer be an issue.


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    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Grant:

    I can't disagree, but the problem with 500hp NA motor is that it becomes 400hp or less as soon as it arrives in Colorado Smiley 

    Why?

       Gasoline?

       Air?

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Altitude. i.e. air indecision


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    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Grant better move...


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Kobalt:
    Grant:

    I can't disagree, but the problem with 500hp NA motor is that it becomes 400hp or less as soon as it arrives in Colorado Smiley 

    Why?

       Gasoline?

       Air?

    Yeah, it's the thin air at altitude.  In Denver, it's not quite so bad (around 15-17% power loss).  But if you drive into the mountains near here (we have a paved road that starts 45 minutes away that goes to 14,400 feet or 4,389 meters - highest in all of North America, including Canada and Alaska) then you lose WAY more.  Fortunately the closest track is just over 5,000 ft elevation, but the track in Aspen is almost 8,000 ft.

    In very rough terms, you lose at least 3% of power and torque for every 1,000 ft of altitude (best case with proper tuning of NA motor).


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    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yee8rvQhMhw

     
     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Sport Auto test.

    Hockenheim 1:09,1min


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    0-100 kph in 4.0 seconds

    0-200 kph in 11.9 seconds

    Tires were Cup 2s.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    RC:

    0-100 kph in 4.0 seconds

    0-200 kph in 11.9 seconds

    Tires were Cup 2s.

    Thanks for adding accelaration times.

    I just compared Hockenheim chart from last issue of SA where 991 GT3 was retested(1:09,3min) to the one from current issue. You can clearly see the difference between PDK-S/manual and 3.8/4.0 engine. I am very much looking forward to 991.2 GT3 with PDK-S.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    KresoF1:
    You can clearly see the difference between PDK-S/manual and 3.8/4.0 engine. I am very much looking forward to 991.2 GT3 with PDK-S.

    Yeah, looks like 1 second in the 0-200kph is due to PDK and maybe even more than a second from 0-100 kph - pretty big difference...

    The track performance doesn't seem to be affected nearly as much as drag-strip performance with PDK - especially if not for the gearing disadvantage (6 gears in manual vs. 7 in PDK).


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    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    You have this shift light on your 991 Rs? Very interested on track for the rs. Software update?


    --

     

    997 GT3 RS 3.6 - 964 RS - 991 GT3 RS

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    LP997:

    You have this shift light on your 991 Rs? Very interested on track for the rs. Software update?

     

    It comes with the Sport Chrono option or if you have a nice dealer they can activate the option for you without Sport Chrono with the PWIS device (have to code it as a Sport Chrono car but then clear the resulting errors).  Not strictly allowed by Porsche but some dealers have done it...

    Personally I find the light a bit of a gimmick and the large analog center tach seems to work fine for me...


    --

     

     

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Thanks Grant :) Nice information ­čśë


    --

    997 GT3 RS 3.6 - 964 RS - 991 GT3 RS


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    Whoopsy:

    Porsche knows their market, but sometimes they cannot react to it. Their hands are tied one way or another.

    The Motorsport NA engine is not fuel efficient, they needed the regular turbo-ed cars to bring down the average fuel economy. If they make more of the NA cars then the average will skewed up. It doesn't help that their SUV is their best sellers which already skew the average up. And a manual Motorsport NA car is also worse on the fuel economy cycle than a PDK.

    That engine also cost more, how high can they price a car? Their current lineup is already up there and the public is not reacting too well.

    Of course they know a whole bunch of their customers loved a manual in a GT car, could they have made more R? Of course, but not much more. They are confined to factory build slots, Stuttgart factory is pretty much maxed out on production, and parts availability, a lot of those parts like the engine and the roof is being soaked up by the demand on the GT3RS. Other parts are restrained by their suppliers, the single plate clutch for example, a lot of the orders got that option deleted and even wit hey late build in Oct it is still not a confirmed option. The lithium battery option is another, they actually took that off the option list and on car orders. The car will also only be done in 2016, it will need to be re-certified again if it span more than one model year. 

    Porsche knows there is a hot demand for a "R" type of car after the R fiasco. So perhaps they will do one in the .2 series as a regular non-limited car, a GT3 sans wing. But it will likely be production limited also. There just isn't enough production slots available in the Stuttgart factory. If they make more of these 'gas guzzling' sports car, it means they make less of the more fuel economy ones, skewing their fuel economy average again. Didn't help that they bring back all the Cayman/Boxster production back to Stuttgart.

    One solution might be to get a 3rd factory going, or buy up more land around Stuttgart to expand, but with the diesel gate, there aren't a lot of 'free' money to go around. 

    I get your point about the capacity.

    At the same time though, I see a lot of Porsche dealers swamped with huge inventories of regular bread and butter 991s, maybe the solution would be to modify production schedule?

    More GT3 type cars at the expense of regular 991s?


    Re: OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016)

    absent:
    I get your point about the capacity.

    At the same time though, I see a lot of Porsche dealers swamped with huge inventories of regular bread and butter 991s, maybe the solution would be to modify production schedule?

    More GT3 type cars at the expense of regular 991s?

     

    The reason why those dealers are swamped because they were greedy, they didn't want to give up their allocations even when they cannot sell that many, so they just spec some stock cars instead of customer orders. While some American dealers have excess of cars, other dealers in other parts of the world don't have enough allocations for even normal 911s.

     


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