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    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    MKSGR:
    KresoF1:
    I have to say that I still am not a fan. BUT, this Panamera could be new Citroen DS of modern days... Porsche is indeed very, very brave with this design.
    You are absolutely right. The design is pretty "unique". One probably has to see it in person to reach a final conclusion Smiley
    +1!

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    xandi911:

    sorry.. but the car must be very very  big...   the wheels look like a 15'' in the car...

    i think maybe a bigger wheel , will let it SPORTIER....

    i heard that the turbo version uses 21'' wheels.... so imagine the SIZE of this beast....

    Smiley

    The Turbo of the pics uses 19"


    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    The ones on the Turbo almost look like 18s to me while the 4S is rocking 19 inch ones. Could be wrong though as the car dwarf any rims under 20 inches. 

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    I seriously doubt Porsche used a lot of input from US customers to design the Panamera. This car is targeting Emerging Markets (China which is Porsche's 3rd largest market, Russia, Middle East, India, ....) because right now only the Cayenne is selling in significant numbers there and dealers need a second model.

    This car can be "chauffeur" driven, hence the huge rear headroom, the adaptative cruise control, fully powered rear seats, 4 seats only, the Porsche badge on the tailgate, the huge gasoline tank (130 liter), ...

    Right now over 40% of all Cayenne are sold in Emerging Markets versus 25% for total Porsche sales.

    Assuming 25,000 units per year and around 50% sold in Emerging markets, you're left with only 12,500 in Europe and North America or more or less 6,000 units per region ....

    Bottom line, Panamera doesn't need to be a smashing success in Europe or the US to be a great overall success....

     

     


    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    EricAlain:

    I seriously doubt Porsche used a lot of input from US customers to design the Panamera. This car is targeting Emerging Markets (China which is Porsche's 3rd largest market, Russia, Middle East, India, ....) because right now only the Cayenne is selling in significant numbers there and dealers need a second model.

    This car can be "chauffeur" driven, hence the huge rear headroom, the adaptative cruise control, fully powered rear seats, 4 seats only, the Porsche badge on the tailgate, the huge gasoline tank (130 liter), ...

    Right now over 40% of all Cayenne are sold in Emerging Markets versus 25% for total Porsche sales.

    Assuming 25,000 units per year and around 50% sold in Emerging markets, you're left with only 12,500 in Europe and North America or more or less 6,000 units per region ....

    Bottom line, Panamera doesn't need to be a smashing success in Europe or the US to be a great overall success....

    +1

    --
    Happy Driving

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Emperor:
    The ones on the Turbo almost look like 18s to me while the 4S is rocking 19 inch ones. Could be wrong though as the car dwarf any rims under 20 inches. 

    The photographers Porsche use don't do justice to their cars generally. Often the angles and the lighting are very bad even for an amateur.

    It might be a marketing trick who knows? So that the real product exceeds the expectations generated by the pictures.  


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    EricAlain:

    Bottom line, Panamera doesn't need to be a smashing success in Europe or the US to be a great overall success....

     

    I can see the Panamera being a success in southern europe and also in eastern europe too.

    People in the traditional markets are more conservative in their tastes and don't like to deviate so much from the norm (e.g. the normal limousine) and experiment.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Ron (Houston):
    EricAlain:

    I seriously doubt Porsche used a lot of input from US customers to design the Panamera. This car is targeting Emerging Markets 

    +1

    --
    Happy Driving
    I doubt any american would have given porsche the thumbs up on this design unless nick was trying to get even.

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Ron (Houston):

    This car can be "chauffeur" driven, hence the huge rear headroom, the adaptative cruise control, fully powered rear seats, 4 seats only, the Porsche badge on the tailgate, the huge gasoline tank (130 liter), ...

    Valid points but I disagree. The Panamera is not a car that can be chauffeur driven. The characteristics of the 400hp V8 is very sporty with max torque available at 3500rpm meaning that the car is designed to be driven at high revs. Listen to the exhaust note as well, the car is too noisy to be a chauffeur driven car. The power delivery is much more comfort oriented in an S-class where high amounts of torque is available at very low revs.

    As for the adaptive seats and cruise control those features can be found in almost all new high end premium cars. Generous headroom in the rear is a no brainier as Porsche wants a car that functional and can sell day in and day out. No pointin making a vanity car that will have it's sales drop down rapidly after 1.5 years. Functionality wins in the long run. The Cayenne and Panamera will ensure that Porsche won't have to worry about cash flow in the future. Surviving on the 911 alone is incredibally difficult as sales for sports cars are unpredictable and fluxtuate dramatically.



    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    racerx:
    I doubt any american would have given porsche the thumbs up on this design unless nick was trying to get even.
    Smiley

    --

    track vid

    0-300kph

    chasing a 997GT2




    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    any idea wehn we would see the inside pics?


    --
    Gee Tee Two, dangit she is fun Chevy Tahoe, dangit are you a big pig

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    EricAlain:

    I seriously doubt Porsche used a lot of input from US customers to design the Panamera. This car is targeting Emerging Markets (China which is Porsche's 3rd largest market, Russia, Middle East, India, ....) because right now only the Cayenne is selling in significant numbers there and dealers need a second model.

    Well, you are free to doubt what you want, I just know what I know. Smiley

    Emerging markets are indeed important and Porsche surely takes "note" of specific tastes and preferences but like it or not, the Panamera has the US as the main target market and maybe Europe as the second one. Most emerging markets are usually overtaking the taste of Europeans and Americans, simply because they have that "old fashioned" mentality that everything luxury coming from the "West" must be cool, good, whatever. Smiley

    Right now, there is no need for Porsche to care too much about emerging markets, simply because their products sell, even if it is mainly the Cayenne. The Panamera could be the second most important car in emerging markets but probably only the special version with a slightly higher chassis, 4WD and some enforcements.

    The main problem is the US where sales are braking away, simply because people are moving away from the SUV. This is where a limousine comes in very handy, nobody seriously criticizes a limousine, more questionable (from an idealistic environmental point of view) would be the sportscars from Porsche.


    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Emperor:

    Valid points but I disagree. The Panamera is not a car that can be chauffeur driven. The characteristics of the 400hp V8 is very sporty with max torque available at 3500rpm meaning that the car is designed to be driven at high revs. Listen to the exhaust note as well, the car is too noisy to be a chauffeur driven car. The power delivery is much more comfort oriented in an S-class where high amounts of torque is available at very low revs.

    As for the adaptive seats and cruise control those features can be found in almost all new high end premium cars. Generous headroom in the rear is a no brainier as Porsche wants a car that functional and can sell day in and day out. No pointin making a vanity car that will have it's sales drop down rapidly after 1.5 years. Functionality wins in the long run. The Cayenne and Panamera will ensure that Porsche won't have to worry about cash flow in the future. Surviving on the 911 alone is incredibally difficult as sales for sports cars are unpredictable and fluxtuate dramatically.


    I'm not the one who is saying the Panamera can be "driven by a chauffeur", It's Porsche when I saw the Panamera "in flesh".

    In countries like China (Porsche's # 3 market), if you're wealthy you have a chauffeur .... and it is also the case in other Emerging Markets.

    Regarding RC's comment on the Panamera being targeted for the US.

    - There is very little overlap between Luxury SUV buyers and Panamera buyers according to Porsche's market research. Overlap is in the tune of 10-15% max.

    - If this car was US oriented, I doubt they would have gone for a hatchback which is not popular at all in the US....

    - Most of Emerging Markets dealers do need something else than the Cayenne to sell ...

    - Dealership number is very rapidly increasing in Emerging Markets, hence the crucial need for a "second model" 

    FY 06/07

    Russia

    Cayenne: 1,699 (or 89% of Total)

    911: 133

    Boxster/Cayman: 68

    Middle-East:

    Cayenne: 3,467 (or 65% of total)

    911: 1,240

    Boxster/Cayman: 623

    Latin America

    Cayenne: 1,280 (or 64% of total)

    911: 440

    Boxster/Cayman: 290

    China:

    Cayenne: 2,510 (or 81% of total)

    911: 400

    Boxster/Cayman: 195

    East / South Europe
    Cayenne: 1,583 (or 53% of total)

    911: 998

    Boxster/Cayman: 421


    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    If Porsche have estimated that they can make a handsome profit with 20.000 units, I am sure this target will be very easily attainable.

    The total global market for this category of car is so big that 20.000 units are a drop in the ocean. Especially, now that there are huge markets "hungry" for automobiles beyond the traditional US and old european ones. But even in the present economic climate USA with 300+millions of population will definitely absorb at least 40-50% of output. For God's sake there is a recession but not everybody will lose his money and become poor. Let's not exaggerate!

    The big achievement of Porsche IMO is that they managed to make a new product line potentially profitable with just 20.000 units p.a.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    EricAlain:
    Emperor:

    Valid points but I disagree. The Panamera is not a car that can be chauffeur driven. The characteristics of the 400hp V8 is very sporty with max torque available at 3500rpm meaning that the car is designed to be driven at high revs. Listen to the exhaust note as well, the car is too noisy to be a chauffeur driven car. The power delivery is much more comfort oriented in an S-class where high amounts of torque is available at very low revs.

    As for the adaptive seats and cruise control those features can be found in almost all new high end premium cars. Generous headroom in the rear is a no brainier as Porsche wants a car that functional and can sell day in and day out. No pointin making a vanity car that will have it's sales drop down rapidly after 1.5 years. Functionality wins in the long run. The Cayenne and Panamera will ensure that Porsche won't have to worry about cash flow in the future. Surviving on the 911 alone is incredibally difficult as sales for sports cars are unpredictable and fluxtuate dramatically.

    - If this car was US oriented, I doubt they would have gone for a hatchback which is not popular at all in the US....

    The Panamera is not a hatchback and doesn't look anything like a Golf or an Audi A6 avant. It's a fastback. Similar cars of the same style have been created in the past. Heck the 928 had the same rear-end shape as the Panamera and nobody referred to it as a hatch back.

    In the US the Panamera will undoubtedly be a hot item as it looks exsiting while having enough room to swallow four large sized Americans. Many people there are tall and will certainly appreciate the generous room, like basket ball players who can't get inside the rear seats of a CLS.


    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    That is very interesting data you posted. I was not aware of how important the Cayenne has been in penetrating the emerging markets Smiley

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    MKSGR:
    That is very interesting data you posted. I was not aware of how important the Cayenne has been in penetrating the emerging markets Smiley

    The Cayenne is probably the only Porsche not falling apart completely after driving on some outside urban area roads in "emerging markets". Smiley

    I just with some emerging market buyer would get my Cayenne Turbo S. Smiley


    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    My local market is interesting case. Porsche sale overall is bigger every year just this year Cayenne sale is droping in 997.2 favour. Panamera will be hit here since for example CLS is very popular...  Regarding powerfull SUVs-new X6 is the king here, specially in white...

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    KresoF1:
    My local market is interesting case. Porsche sale overall is bigger every year just this year Cayenne sale is droping in 997.2 favour. Panamera will be hit here since for example CLS is very popular...  Regarding powerfull SUVs-new X6 is the king here, specially in white...

    The X6 is another proof that in some markets people want something different and unique and striking. And the Panamera is also unique and impressive amongst cars in the limousine class. Good for Porsche that the BMW Concept CS has been cancelled for the time being at least.

    As I mentioned earlier this trend is more pronounced outside the traditional european markets especially southern and eastern europe.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs



    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    EricAlain:

    FY 06/07

    Russia

    Cayenne: 1,699 (or 89% of Total)

    911: 133

    Boxster/Cayman: 68

    Middle-East:

    Cayenne: 3,467 (or 65% of total)

    911: 1,240

    Boxster/Cayman: 623

    Latin America

    Cayenne: 1,280 (or 64% of total)

    911: 440

    Boxster/Cayman: 290

    China:

    Cayenne: 2,510 (or 81% of total)

    911: 400

    Boxster/Cayman: 195

    East / South Europe
    Cayenne: 1,583 (or 53% of total)

    911: 998

    Boxster/Cayman: 421

    great info Eric as I had no idea of the proportion of sales of Cayenne vs 997/987 in the emerging markets, that is not good for 911 lovers as its taking a back seat in terms of priorities for the company, and now with the Panamera even worse...

    --

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Carlos from Spain:

    great info Eric as I had no idea of the proportion of sales of Cayenne vs 997/987 in the emerging markets, that is not good for 911 lovers as its taking a back seat in terms of priorities for the company, and now with the Panamera even worse...

     

     

     

    The success of additional, newer. model lines does not necessarily have to be a bad thing.

    For instance:

    -   Developing a Boxster which shared some parts, technology and production facilities with the 911 will surely have helped Porsche to produce a better 996 in the late 1990s than would otherwise have been the case. The 996 was, after all, conceived at a time when the company was a financial basket case.

    -  The fact that the Cayenne factory in Leipzig was available to Porsche will surely have made it easier to go ahead with the production of the Carrera GT. Who knows, if this new facility had not been available, that car might never have got past the prototype stage.   Smiley  

    -  Having a couple of other, less sporting models in the product range might allow Porsche to feel more daring about the spec of future generations of the 911 and Boxster/Cayman models. The sports cars would no longer HAVE to appeal to such a broad range of buyers as to guarantee a "critical mass" size for the company if the mood of the market were to turn against sports cars. (This was, after all, a criticism made about the 996 when it was first introduced, which has since been muted by the introduction of various GT versions and the 997 generations).

    -  When you think about it, Porsche has built more track-oriented street versions of the 911 AND more racing cars based on the 911 in recent years than at any time in its history, in spite of "distractions" like the 986/987, Carrera GT, Cayenne,  Panamera.

    As long as there is money to be made from the 911, I would not worry too much about it not being given enough priority. Smiley

     

     


    --
    fritz

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Those are very good points Fritz, though I'm not too convinced, I specially hope this one bellow is true, then I wouldn't even care if Porsche sold minivans in colaboration with Citroen Smiley

    -  Having a couple of other, less sporting models in the product range might allow Porsche to feel more daring about the spec of future generations of the 911 and Boxster/Cayman models. The sports cars would no longer HAVE to appeal to such a broad range of buyers as to guarantee a "critical mass" size for the company if the mood of the market were to turn against sports cars. (This was, after all, a criticism made about the 996 when it was first introduced, which has since been muted by the introduction of various GT versions and the 997 generations).



    --

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Carlos from Spain:
    EricAlain:

    FY 06/07

    Russia

    Cayenne: 1,699 (or 89% of Total)

    911: 133

    Boxster/Cayman: 68

    Middle-East:

    Cayenne: 3,467 (or 65% of total)

    911: 1,240

    Boxster/Cayman: 623

    Latin America

    Cayenne: 1,280 (or 64% of total)

    911: 440

    Boxster/Cayman: 290

    China:

    Cayenne: 2,510 (or 81% of total)

    911: 400

    Boxster/Cayman: 195

    East / South Europe
    Cayenne: 1,583 (or 53% of total)

    911: 998

    Boxster/Cayman: 421

    great info Eric as I had no idea of the proportion of sales of Cayenne vs 997/987 in the emerging markets, that is not good for 911 lovers as its taking a back seat in terms of priorities for the company, and now with the Panamera even worse...

    --

    I can't see what the amazement is. People in emerging markets are less prosperous than us in the western world, hence more practical prestige cars are favoured over strict two seater cars like the 911. Secondly the roads in Russia and the middle east aren't very renowned, hence the versatility of an SUV come in hand. Even in Africa and places less well of SUVs have long been popular amongst the rich and successful. Sports cars will and have always been outsold by traditional four door cars.

    The 911 has not taken the backseat. In fact the profit drawn in by the Cayenne is what has allowed Porsche to develop the CGT, fund the Panamera project as well as offering capita for future 911 models. Think of Porsche as music producer funding the construction of his own studio by working as a stand up comedian on the side.


    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Carlos from Spain:

    Those are very good points Fritz, though I'm not too convinced, I specially hope this one bellow is true, then I wouldn't even care if Porsche sold minivans in colaboration with Citroen Smiley



    --

     

    I didn't say anything about minivans, Carlos. Smiley

    You've got to draw the line somewhere!  Smiley



    --
    fritz

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Emperor:
    The ones on the Turbo almost look like 18s to me while the 4S is rocking 19 inch ones. Could be wrong though as the car dwarf any rims under 20 inches. 

    The turbo is pictured with 19's (for some strange reason) but will come with 20's as standard and 21's as an option. 19's will be standard for the NA V8 and maybe 18's for the V6 but I think just a different 19.
    --
    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Mithras:
    Emperor:
    The ones on the Turbo almost look like 18s to me while the 4S is rocking 19 inch ones. Could be wrong though as the car dwarf any rims under 20 inches. 

    The turbo is pictured with 19's (for some strange reason) but will come with 20's as standard and 21's as an option. 19's will be standard for the NA V8 and maybe 18's for the V6 but I think just a different 19.
    --
    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region
    Thanks. The roads in the US can be quite rough which makes 19 inch rims reasonable for comfortable journeys. Entry level S-class and 7-series also come with tiny "tiny" rims.

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    I like it. The bum is big but ... OK in my view (remember the Queen song?).

    More than anything like the Quattroporte but at the same time not at all like it which is as it should be.

    The aero is maybe a bit more "fashion accessory" than we are used to at Porsche - but not overly obtrusive. Wonder how reliable the intricate rear spoiler will be, though. 

    I'm surprised to be honest - the prototypes were really gross.

    Like many on this board I too don't think Porsche need to write "Porsche" on their cars...

    Otherwise thumbs up.

    How much?

    SoS.








    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    I like it. I think some pics have a bad angle which in real life won't be that bad. Same as Cayenne when it came out. Honestly what I would like to know is performance compared to 997/Cayenne/S8/RS6. For this car to shine, it better be good, which is not that easy with the announced weight. Unless they can work some magic like the Nissan GT-R. That blue shade is really nice, but two fonts in the back make it messy.

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Emperor:

    In fact the profit drawn in by the Cayenne is what has allowed Porsche to develop the CGT, fund the Panamera project as well as offering capita for future 911 models.

    I don't think that this is true for the Carrera GT. They were developped mostly in parallel as the marekt-introduction for both was around end of 2002/beginning of 2003. However, it is certainly one of main fund raiser for the Panamera developpment (besides Porsche's investment adivsors).

    --

    Matt C
    2005 997 C2S / 1988 911 3.2 Conv.


     
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