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    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    I am counting on the 991.2, but not very much. Given the progress in many areas from 997.1 to 997.2, there are good (not high) expectations.

    For sure the electric steering will be improved and probably get switchable modes, the car may get RWS as an option, and with the 3.0 L turbo engines it will be easy to reach 450 hp and the lower CO2 will ease the tax burden.

    I like the overall look of the 991 but it needs some injection of excitement/sportive look in the detailing, not just new DRLs.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    electric steering is very good for the current 991s.  for the 991.2TTS unfortunately we all know they are not going to put any new engine in it....  we could all wish, but its not gonna happen....  That's just Porsche, u either hate it or love it....  few modifications on the exterior, and porgram 20hp more... that's about the new 991.2TTS u are gonna get from Porsche.  They really don't mind if 650S is pushing 8.4second (0-200), because they just don't care.... 

    If TTS can be branded apart from 991S, then there will be a good marketing reason behind for them to jack the price even higher, since they can bump their level against 650s, 458, or Hurrcan, and yet have a bit settled and not soo flashy look, then that might work for TTS. 

    I was just at local Macan presentation few weeks ago, the guests are people who already ordered the car, and there are about 500 people in the room, all thinking they now own Porsche Brand... which is 1/4 of the cost of TTS....   The problem is that u can get a base 991 for 1/2 of cost of TTS. and they all call it all 911s.  Anybody not familiar with 911s would wonder why would u pay soo much more.... How would Porsche now having Macan for 1/4 of cost of TTS.   What would TTS owners feels??  To be honest, I was pretty upset at the presentation..... Glad that I sold the TTS now. 

    Brand value had been diluted many folds....  and just now they came out with a Macan 2.0T and price cheaper than Q5 2.0T.  SmileySmileySmileySmileySmiley

    They need a new model name for TTS!!!  can not labeled together with 911s!!! 


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    I think that one is buying a 911 Turbo (or any 911 for that matter) for the wrong reasons if exclusivity, rarity or a desire to show-off are major concerns.

    The fact that 911 Turbo is "just a 911" to most people is part of the appeal. It is not a car one should purchase in order to impress the average person. There are better tools for that job.

    On the other hand, what if you want to use your supercar daily? You want to do everything with it? No matter where you're going, what you're doing and regardless of climatic conditions?

    If that's what you want, I don't think there is a better tool for THAT job.


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    huangester:

    They really don't mind if 650S is pushing 8.4second (0-200), because they just don't care.... 

    Stop mentioning the 650S please in the same context as the TurboS. Turbo comparisons are being made with a car costing 50% more and someone has to go half way round the world to find a dealer or workshop. Different species.

    Besides, if all potential Turbo buyers decided to order a Mac, they wouldn't get one. It would take McLaren many many years to deliver given their production capabilities. Theoretical rivals for magazine tests.

    Currently the only car that could be compared to the 650S is the Speciale and because this car is not readily available for magazine tests, they all borrow a Turbo S to fill pages and websites. Journalistic make believe and otherwise intelligent people fall in this trap.

    If TTS can be branded apart from 991S, then there will be a good marketing reason behind for them to jack the price even higher, since they can bump their level against 650s, 458, or Hurrcan, and yet have a bit settled and not soo flashy look, then that might work for TTS. 

    IMO one of the reasons that successive generations of the Turbo sell, is that they are 911s.

    Severing this link would damage the Turbo. But even so, how would they disassociate the two models, when the rear engine and the iconic profile will stay?

    If Porsche wish for something more prestigious they should introduce the flat-8 mid-engined model.

    I was just at local Macan presentation few weeks ago, the guests are people who already ordered the car, and there are about 500 people in the room, all thinking they now own Porsche Brand... which is 1/4 of the cost of TTS....   The problem is that u can get a base 991 for 1/2 of cost of TTS. and they all call it all 911s.  Anybody not familiar with 911s would wonder why would u pay soo much more.... How would Porsche now having Macan for 1/4 of cost of TTS.   What would TTS owners feels??  To be honest, I was pretty upset at the presentation..... Glad that I sold the TTS now. 

    As to the pros/cons of the Macan and the effect on the brand, all has been already said and discussed. We'll have to wait and see how things evolve.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    Well said Reginos.

    Branding the Turbo apart from other 911 models is the most stupid idea I've ever heard.... A 911 is a 911, no matter if it is a base Carrera or a GT2RS... The basics are the same.


    --

    Suzy

    2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
    2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
     


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    I thought people who bought 911 because of the badge died out in the 90s (with red braces and the filofax). I guess I was wrong?


    --

    991 (what a car!) XC90 - 120 Cab - 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    I just had a test drive in the 650S this morning . Weather was very bad. 10 degrees and poring with rain . The car had Trofeo on so I was not able to drive it properly + a salesperson next to me + a tour that was mostly highway and city driving .

    Otherwise the welcome from Mclaren was very good. Food and drinks were offered and all salesperson were kind, open, friendly . No arrogance what's so ever .

    I like the car a lot . Better sound then the 12C , but very disappointed when they told me the sound in the cabin comes from a speaker !!!!!!! mail

    The car also feel more 'alive' then the 12C and steering is more direct . With the 12C you could do what ever you wanted ( even lots of mistakes ) and the car just corrected everything without you noticing anything . 650S is different , the driver is more ' involved ' . This is much better now .

    Price in Switzerland is very good , as it is only EURO : 5'600.- more then a TTS ..... and dealers are within 100km range .   When I asked about their pricing they told me that they did not increase the price for Switzerland , just did the exchange rate . This is very rare for a car manufacturer as Porsche , or BMW or MB or any other always adds about 30 % on the price for our market because....... they just think they can milk us !

    Well done McLaren for that kiss I am actually very pi..ed off at Porsche for not correcting their pricing after the big increase of the exchange rates compared to Euros in 2008-2009 .  I work in the retail business, and we all adapted by lowering the Swiss prices. Why don't they ? crying

    Here a few pics . There was one more car, in orange , but was out on a drive when I took this photo .

    photo 6.JPG

    photo 7.JPG

    photo 8.JPG


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    Gnil:

    Price in Switzerland is very good , as it is only EURO : 5'600.- more then a TTS

    With that small a price difference, I would take no time at all choosing the 650S.  In the USA, the premium for the 650S is quite large (over $82k, the price of a Carrera).


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    I must say that I do miss the heavy planted back of the 911 each time I drive a well balanced mid engined car .....

    but now that the 991 has lost that characteristic it might not be a choice anymore surprise


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    Eric,

    Your overall verdict?

    Did you find the doors on 650S practical enough for daily usage, as well as entrance in to the cabine?

    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    Considering how much Porsche is charging for the TTS in Switzerland you are getting a lot more for your money with the Mac, makes the TTS look like a rip off.

    If you don't mind the lack of rear seats and the flashier looks (I for example could not drive a Mac or Mca like car because I don't like the attention I would get, but more power to those that don't care about that), the choice is a no brainer! ... 650S all the way wink

    And having a McLaren dealer reasonably close like you is another obstacle that McLaren has that is not an issue for you, and McLaren customer service is probably at a different level and with different priorities than a mass production maker like Porsche who caters more to Cayenne and Macan diesel type customers.

    What is a huge let down is the need to push fake engine sound through the speakers on such a car mail hopefully that can be turned off by the shop through the diagnostic CPU.


    --


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    Gnil:

     Better sound then the 12C , but very disappointed when they told me the sound in the cabin comes from a speaker !!!!!!! mail

    What?! Did McLaren start with this rubbish too now? Sad.


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    Gnil:

    I must say that I do miss the heavy planted back of the 911 each time I drive a well balanced mid engined car .....

    but now that the 991 has lost that characteristic it might not be a choice anymore surprise

    You have to try it on Hockenheimring. I think Porsche nailed the balance with the 991. It feels more like mid-engine, but you still have the grip from the well planted rear Smiley One time booty, all time booty Smiley

    Then again, if you really want a challenge with rear engined feel, get a 964 RS. It is the answer to everyone's moaning about PDK, PTV, PTS, PASM, DFI, etc. The ultimate track car and you won't loose a Rappen in depreciation. Quite the opposite. It probably pays your track days in the long run Smiley


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    bluelines:
    Gnil:

    I must say that I do miss the heavy planted back of the 911 each time I drive a well balanced mid engined car .....

    but now that the 991 has lost that characteristic it might not be a choice anymore surprise

    You have to try it on Hockenheimring. I think Porsche nailed the balance with the 991. It feels more like mid-engine, but you still have the grip from the well planted rear Smiley One time booty, all time booty Smiley

    Then again, if you really want a challenge with rear engined feel, get a 964 RS. It is the answer to everyone's moaning about PDK, PTV, PTS, PASM, DFI, etc. The ultimate track car and you won't loose a Rappen in depreciation. Quite the opposite. It probably pays your track days in the long run Smiley

    +1955!! Smiley (991+964) Smiley


    --

    Suzy

    2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
    2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
     


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    SuzyF:
    bluelines:
    Gnil:

    I must say that I do miss the heavy planted back of the 911 each time I drive a well balanced mid engined car .....

    but now that the 991 has lost that characteristic it might not be a choice anymore surprise

    You have to try it on Hockenheimring. I think Porsche nailed the balance with the 991. It feels more like mid-engine, but you still have the grip from the well planted rear Smiley One time booty, all time booty Smiley

    Then again, if you really want a challenge with rear engined feel, get a 964 RS. It is the answer to everyone's moaning about PDK, PTV, PTS, PASM, DFI, etc. The ultimate track car and you won't loose a Rappen in depreciation. Quite the opposite. It probably pays your track days in the long run Smiley

    +1955!! Smiley (991+964) Smiley

    Oh, this is getting too advanced for a Friday evening Smiley

    How about +981 Smiley You want to tag along to Hockenheim with the Boxster?


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    bluelines:
    SuzyF:

    +1955!! Smiley (991+964) Smiley

    Oh, this is getting too advanced for a Friday evening Smiley

    How about +981 Smiley You want to tag along to Hockenheim with the Boxster?

    Maybe... It depends on when it is and if I still have the car then. I'm playing with the thoughts of buying something completely different. A classic Alfa Romeo, but I'm not 100% sure about it yet. It's something I always wanted, but I'm kinda afraid to take that step, since I can't do any maintenance myself.


    --

    Suzy

    2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
    2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
     


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

     I am a fan of classic Alfas. What do you fancy?

    if by classic you mean 60s-70s, I like most models but mostly the Junior Z (Zagato) and the Montreal Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    reginos:

     I am a fan of classic Alfas. What do you fancy?

    if by classic you mean 60s-70s, I like most models but mostly the Junior Z (Zagato) and the Montreal Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"

    The Montreal is the car that made me realise I have gasoline in my vains.Smiley My uncle's restored 1972 Montreal gave me goosebumps all over when i was 6 or 7 years old. I still get goosebumps when  i hear a Montreal! He still has the car and someday it will be mine, so that's for later Smiley For now I have fallen in love with a 1961 Alfa 2000 Touring Spider. It was actually a car that my grandparents in Sardinia had at the time my mother was a child. I've seen it on old pictures numerous times, so there's a kind of emotional bond with that car too. (i'll admit that I would prefer a Ferrari 275 GTS Spider, but that's slightly above my budget Smiley)

    sorry for going off-topic... Smiley


    --

    Suzy

    2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
    2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
     


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    Suzy, my compliments. I don't often meet, even electronically, very young persons like you, who know about and appreciate older and classic cars. wink


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    reginos:

    Suzy, my compliments. I don't often meet, even electronically, very young persons like you, who know about and appreciate polder and classic cars. wink


    --

    "Form follows function"

     Thanks Smiley I always liked beautiful classic cars. It's just that it's a bit worrying to take that step if you can't do some basic maintenance on cars like that. OTOH...I can learn it and I'm convinced that there are good specialist mechanics for these cars. One just has to find them.

    Smiley

    Back to 991 and 650 now... Smiley


    --

    Suzy

    2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
    2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
     


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    With a classic car you must have a trusted knowledgable technician, something like a family doctor.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    My Dad's business partner in Austria owned a Montreal and let my dad use it.  I was a passenger when he spun it 180 degrees on a twisty mountain road and scared the heck out of me.  In a good way!  Since then I have enjoyed driving fast and drifting a bit!  What a great car and excellent memory.  Funny it was the same car!

    Cheers


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    Gnil:

     

    I like the car a lot . Better sound then the 12C , but very disappointed when they told me the sound in the cabin comes from a speaker !!!!!!! mail

     

     

    I thinks that's incorrect, the 650S like the 12C has something called an intake sound generator or ISG, to channel only the intake noise into the cabin, if the driver wishes to. it has 3 settings and it can be completely open or closed or in between. the intake noise basically comes from the engine to the cabin through a tube and diaphragm (not a stereo speaker), that can altered. it has nothing to do with the speakers or the speaker system. the exhaust noise has nothing to do with the ISG either. Most owners prefer their intake setting on the lowest, i prefer mine full blast.

    this explains is a bit better:   https://www.google.com/patents/US201...ed=0CFIQ6AEwBA https://www.google.com/patents/US201...ed=0CFIQ6AEwBA https://www.google.com/patents/US201...ed=0CFIQ6AEwBA https://www.google.com/patents/US201...ed=0CFIQ6AEwBA https://www.google.com/patents/US201...ed=0CFIQ6AEwBA https://www.google.com/patents/US201...ed=0CFIQ6AEwBA https://www.google.com/patents/US201...ed=0CFIQ6AEwBA https://www.google.com/patents/US201...ed=0CFIQ6AEwBA https://www.google.com/patents/US201...ed=0CFIQ6AEwBA


    --

    2011 CTT, 2013 12C Spider, 2013 A5 cab, 2014 4Runner Trail Edition

     

     


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    AAHTT, thank you for correcting the misinformation regarding McLaren engine sound, ... As you correctly point out, the 650 does not use speakers and synthesized sound (like an M5). "A valved sound tube pipes intake noise into the cabin" and it is glorious. Drove it again yesterday and the thrill of sliding through a corner and then squirting to 132 mph in less than 10 seconds is pretty amazing. 

    "When you stop doing things for fun, you may as well be dead". - Hemingway, True at First Light, (1999)

     


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    Compared with actual Porsche vision/strategy,  McClaren seems to be more focus on the driver...on driver experience.

    We all remenber why Apple hás been so sucessfull with mobile products, starting with the iPod....user experiente has miles ahead of the competition

    For a small car company, they supply high quality, high performance products that are at the same level of the best

    Well Done Mclaren kiss


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    Like I said before, if McLaren would pack this performance in a less flashy design (AM or Maserati come into my mind) and maybe add AWD too, it would put the 911 Turbo and maybe even some of the 911 GT models under a lot of pressure.

    I agree that the 911 Turbo and the GT models should be marketed slightly different to the 911 (the LED lights, which are a Turbo development, even if they showed up first on the Panamera should have stayed a unique feature of the Turbo and GT models). Also, the tail light design could have been different, maybe a bit larger and darker. Same goes to the interior.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    KresoF1:
    Eric,

    Your overall verdict?

    Did you find the doors on 650S practical enough for daily usage, as well as entrance in to the cabine?

    My test drive was under very bad conditions . Cold ( 10 degrees )  + lots of rain and the drive was mostly highway and suburbs , 45 min . So not a fully satisfying drive to make final conclusions.

    As a DD, I would never get this car . TTS is much, much better for that, no comparaison there . The doors , and specially the wide chassis , make the entrance not easy nor comfortable . I am lucky I have long legs , but getting in is a bit of a challenge . Just for that this car is not a DD .

    The salesperson was trying to explain that suspension has now been tuned so that in normal mode it is comfortable enough to make a  DD ....  humm, confortable enough it is ( even if it stays firm ) but for good roads and due to entrance , back view ( but now there is back camera ) I would never use it as a DD .

    It is otherwise a very nice and sharp car that seems more involving then the 12 C . It still stays an exotic .

    Problem I have : my wife does not think that kind of money should be spent on such a toy . I am sure if I would get a TTS she would never ask about the money spent Smiley  ( even if is more or less the same )


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    Carlos from Spain:

    If you don't mind the lack of rear seats and the flashier looks (I for example could not drive a Mac or Mca like car because I don't like the attention I would get, but more power to those that don't care about that), the choice is a no brainer! ... 650S all the way wink

    What is a huge let down is the need to push fake engine sound through the speakers on such a car mail hopefully that can be turned off by the shop through the diagnostic CPU.


    --

    The sympathy people in the street seem to give to this car is different then for a Ferrari for example . They see it more as a friendly toy then a show  of wealth . 

    As for me , I have always preferred the stealth look and I don't like the attention either , but that would be the same probably with a GT3 RS ....

    The engine noise through the speaker is not '' fake'' in the sense that it is the real noise from the engine, but just brought into the cabin by a speaker !  I agree this should not happen on a car like that . It is ridiculous !! But maybe then can't find another way so that we can hear a nice engine sound inside Smiley


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    bluelines:
     

    You have to try it on Hockenheimring. I think Porsche nailed the balance with the 991. It feels more like mid-engine, but you still have the grip from the well planted rear Smiley One time booty, all time booty Smiley

    Then again, if you really want a challenge with rear engined feel, get a 964 RS. It is the answer to everyone's moaning about PDK, PTV, PTS, PASM, DFI, etc. The ultimate track car and you won't loose a Rappen in depreciation. Quite the opposite. It probably pays your track days in the long run Smiley

    I like faster , so for the moment I can't go back in time .... not for the track !  even if I can slowly see some of my brain switch to other priorities ....

    And I take your invitation to try the 991 at Hockenheim Smiley


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: 991 Turbo S vs McLaren 650S Spider Sport Auto test results

    SuzyF:

    How about +981 Smiley You want to tag along to Hockenheim with the Boxster?

    Maybe... It depends on when it is and if I still have the car then. 

    Suzy

    2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
    2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
     

    It's on the 29th of this month . Come and join us, it would be great . These track days are very 'friendly' and fun . No pressure at all . Smiley


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


     
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