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    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    amazon:
    RC:
    SoCal Alan:

    Red/Beige

    Classic... Smiley Red is too much for my neighborhood though. My dealer has a used red 997 Turbo S and I'm not sure this color fits a 997 Turbo S too well. Can't explain it... Smiley (see photo). Looks too much "Ferrari-ish" to me.

    12230649b_xxl.jpg


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    IMHO, it looks really nice. Red works well on the 997

    The car is still small enough.

    On the "stretch out" 991, flashy colors do not work (yellow, red, white, etc.) The only colors I like on the 991 are black & agate grey. Maybe silver, but not so sure.

    You need  to move to the booming Silicon Valley, in northern  California, where this color looks just fine. The Eurogloom  is really getting to you , LOL !


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC - considering the new price here in CH for a 997 turbo S of almost if not 280k Sfr - and now being availble with low miles for 140k (still +110k Euro) is just 50% for a car less than 20k km on it . I must admit I LOVE the looks of the 991 and I am sure in flesh it looks even better - but all I am saying is in terms of everyday performance you can have similar for considerable less money if you don't need the latest shape/gadget.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    kudryavchik:
    RC, maybe I am wrong, but I don't see how 918 affect 911 turbo performance. 918 is completely from another league and much much faster that Mclaren. (Of course now unofficially). So why do they need to make turbo slower than MP4-12 that is much slower than 918 anyway? 

    Maybe you should re-read my posts regarding this matter. The problem is the upcoming GT2 and especially the GT2 RS which could get too close to 918 performance and if they keep performance "at bay" to avoid putting the 918 under pressure, this also means that the 991 Turbo S has to be kept at a "distance" to the GT2 and even more to the GT2 RS. Smiley Sounds complicated but actually it is pretty simple.

    Let me do the math for you: If the 991 Turbo S would do 0-200 kph in 9 seconds (MP4-12C territory), this would mean that the 991 GT2 needs to do 0-200 kph in maximum 8.5 seconds and the GT2 RS in 8 seconds or even faster. Now where is the 918 currently from 0-200 kph? You understand? Smiley Smiley

    From 0-100 kph, even the 918 could have trouble to outrun the new Turbo S but this is another problem in my opinion. I actually think that, according to the rumors I got during the development phase (2.7 seconds from 0-100 kph) the 991 Turbo S could really achieve this time...if Porsche would let it. I doubt however this is going to happen. It would put way too much pressure on the upcoming performance models.

    I know that 0-100 kph and 0-200 kph times may not be that important but just think about who usually buys these cars. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    The logic you describe above applies to any car. It's always cheaper to buy used especially if it is the previous model. But there is a special pleasure "if you are the first one" . You can specify your car as you wish, order it, wait for delivery and see it arriving in its wrapping. It  is a very satisfying procedure even for a VW Polo, never mind a Turbo. I suppose it is a matter of priorities and access to funds.

    Personally, I like to buy new, even if I have to settle for a less powerful model in order to be within budget. For example, hundred times a new Carrera S than a used Turbo.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    BjoernB:

    RC - considering the new price here in CH for a 997 turbo S of almost if not 280k Sfr - and now being availble with low miles for 140k (still +110k Euro) is just 50% for a car less than 20k km on it . I must admit I LOVE the looks of the 991 and I am sure in flesh it looks even better - but all I am saying is in terms of everyday performance you can have similar for considerable less money if you don't need the latest shape/gadget.

    I didn't know that the 991 Turbo S is 220k EUR in Switzerland, so yes, a used one for 110 or even 120k EUR would make sense. Actually, I was thinking about getting a used 991 Turbo S before ordering the 991 Turbo S but the lease offers are very bad vs. the new car and I would certainly regret it sooner or later. If I wouldn't have the Panamera Turbo S lease (from which I can only get out if I lease a new Porsche), I would have probably bought a slightly used (not more than 10k km) 997 Turbo S for under 130k EUR. 

    This is exactly my point though: Porsche should have given the new Turbo S at least 580 hp to keep a wider performance gap between the old and the new model. 30 hp aren't much now, especially considering the fact that the new Turbo S also weights aprox. 20-25 kg more (which is inexcusable in my opinion). Porsche still has time to correct the specs but I doubt they are going to do that.

    Speaking of buying a new 991 Turbo S: It also has some advantages. You get a new car which won't be seen much on the streets for at least 12 months (it always takes some time for a new Turbo to make it's way to customers, maybe because it is so expensive) and of course there are the benefits of the highly improved chassis and steering,  not to forget the new PTM system (AWD/PSM). Driving a new model which just came out is always a pleasure (not many cars around, there is also that certain feel I cannot describe) but I agree, after 1-2 years of ownership, only pure performance counts.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:

     A little correction regarding the ECU type/manufacturer: It is NOT Siemens but Bosch with the ME 7.8.1. 

    Sorry about this confusion...

    The ME 7.8.1 is similar to the 997 Turbo (pre-facelift), which could be an advantage for tuners. As far as I remember, the 997 Turbo/Turbo S facelift uses the Siemens SDI3 but I'm not 100% sure about it.

     

    According to dealers sale material that I got new 991 Turbo/Turbo S use SDI9 digital motorelektronik.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    KresoF1:
    RC:

     A little correction regarding the ECU type/manufacturer: It is NOT Siemens but Bosch with the ME 7.8.1. 

    Sorry about this confusion...

    The ME 7.8.1 is similar to the 997 Turbo (pre-facelift), which could be an advantage for tuners. As far as I remember, the 997 Turbo/Turbo S facelift uses the Siemens SDI3 but I'm not 100% sure about it.

     

    According to dealers sale material that I got new 991 Turbo/Turbo S use SDI9 digital motorelektronik.

    KresoF1, what are your expectations on acceleration figures on 991 Turbo S?


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    In what terms? Official 0-200km/h is 10.3s, if your question will press cars beat this figure? Answer is depending on the magazine. German AZ for sure will get better results. Sport Auto probably not...

    Is 991 Turbo S capable to get below 30s for 0-300km/h? I do not think so. 560ps is despite known fact that Porsche "560ps" are probably the most powerfull "560ps" is still 560ps and you can not expect miracle here.

    Look what cars can get below 25s in 0-300km/h... Ferrari F12 with 740ps, Murci and few others.

    For below 30s in 0-300km/h you need more then 630ps and better gearing then the one Porsche is using on PDK in 991 Turbo/Turbo S. 318km/h is achieved in 6th gear at almost 6900rpm which means that you have only 300rpm till limiter. With current PDK gearing new Turbo S simply can not go faster then say it 323km/h.

    All other sportscars equiped with DTC gearboxes are using 7th gear as power gear(458 Italia, F12 Berlinetta, SLS AMG GT). Only MP4-12C is using pretty long 7th gear as well.

    Reasons are EU6 regulation that Porsche craves for and "fake" fuel consumption values. Just check out fuel consumption values offically presented by Porsche for 991 Turbo S... 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    KresoF1:
    RC:

     A little correction regarding the ECU type/manufacturer: It is NOT Siemens but Bosch with the ME 7.8.1. 

    Sorry about this confusion...

    The ME 7.8.1 is similar to the 997 Turbo (pre-facelift), which could be an advantage for tuners. As far as I remember, the 997 Turbo/Turbo S facelift uses the Siemens SDI3 but I'm not 100% sure about it.

     

    According to dealers sale material that I got new 991 Turbo/Turbo S use SDI9 digital motorelektronik.

    This is weird...I had the same information a couple of days ago, this is why I mentioned Siemens in my first posts and then got this yesterday...

    turbo.jpg

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    KresoF1:

    In what terms? Official 0-200km/h is 10.3s, if your question will press cars beat this figure? Answer is depending on the magazine. German AZ for sure will get better results. Sport Auto probably not...

    It is really difficult to speculate about results from car magazines but I agree, Autozeitung always achieves better acceleration times, probably due to the stickier asphalt they test their cars on.

    Is 991 Turbo S capable to get below 30s for 0-300km/h? I do not think so. 560ps is despite known fact that Porsche "560ps" are probably the most powerfull "560ps" is still 560ps and you can not expect miracle here.

    Don't kill the messenger. According to another source, the new 991 Turbo S outruns the 997 GT2 RS up to 210 kph (from standstill) and then gets slowly overtaken by the GT2 RS, leaving a gap three to four car lengths when hitting 300 kph. We are talking real speed here, no speedo values. The GT2 RS does 0-300 kph in 28.6 seconds, so I guess the 991 Turbo S would then hit 300 kph in aprox. 33 seconds or so. Of course this is only speculation, I get so much rumors regarding the Turbo S (maybe because I also ask around a lot) but there is no precise information available yet. A french car magazine achieved 35.5 seconds in the "old" 997 Turbo S, so I think it should be doable.

    Look what cars can get below 25s in 0-300km/h... Ferrari F12 with 740ps, Murci and few others.

    Well...below 25 seconds would be quite sensational. Smiley

    For below 30s in 0-300km/h you need more then 630ps and better gearing then the one Porsche is using on PDK in 991 Turbo/Turbo S. 318km/h is achieved in 6th gear at almost 6900rpm which means that you have only 300rpm till limiter. With current PDK gearing new Turbo S simply can not go faster then say it 323km/h.

    You actually claimed something else but this doesn't matter, right now there is a lot of confusing information floating around. You forget to take the overboost into that equation, which can easily be re-activated if you only reduce throttle for a fraction of a second.

    All other sportscars equiped with DTC gearboxes are using 7th gear as power gear(458 Italia, F12 Berlinetta, SLS AMG GT). Only MP4-12C is using pretty long 7th gear as well.

    True but they do not fulfill EU 6, do they? Smiley

    Reasons are EU6 regulation that Porsche craves for and "fake" fuel consumption values. Just check out fuel consumption values offically presented by Porsche for 991 Turbo S... 

    True but the other manufacturers can't ignore EU 6 (mandatory starting Sept. 2015 on new cars).

    It is pretty difficult to predict the real life performance of the new 991 Turbo S but of course I still hope for slightly sub 3 seconds from 0-100 kph and slightly sub 10 seconds from 0-200 kph. 0-300 kph performance should be under 36 seconds for sure but how much under 36 seconds is a different question. Under 30 seconds would be amazing but I don't believe that either (considering the 0-300 kph performance of the 997 GT2 RS).

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    About that top speed.. My source told me that one prototyp achieved almost 332km/h in 7th(!) gear. Unfortunately, it used little bit different gearing...

    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    KresoF1:
    About that top speed.. My source told me that one prototyp achieved almost 332km/h in 7th(!) gear. Unfortunately, it used little bit different gearing...

    We will know for sure in September but I doubt that Sport Auto will publish a Supertest before next year.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
     

    They did...this is actually one of the few facts I found. This is why I also think that the Turbo S will surprise performance-wise vs. the regular Turbo, 

    I just had a peak at some of the technical specs and see that the turbo produces its 520PS at 6000 to 6500rpm and the S its 560PS from 6500 to 6750rpm so I stand corrected looks like the S is a relative (for a turbo) screamer Smiley

    Some of the Porsche 0-300 quotes have been a little off in recent years, Carrera GT was supposed to be ~27s and in reality was ~34s. 997GT2 was supposed to 33s and was really ~36s. They got the GT2RS correct but the 0-300 test is much harder to get constant numbers out of since it depends so much on many factors mainly climate and surface.

    The Turbos S has a good Cd of 0.31 and strong (on paper) power curve so with 20PS more than the 997GT2 and much better aerodynamics plus the time saved on 5 gear changes @ 2s it should be right around the 33s mark Smiley


    --

     


     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Interesting and very good analysis.

    Oh boy...I wish Porsche would provide detailed performance and technical data because many (potential) customers still have difficulties to decide if this is the right car for them. I get it, you get a Turbo/Turbo S or not, my dealer for example doesn't plan any presentation event and he won't have a test car but at least Porsche could make it easier for us customers to gather as much information as possible to make the right decision.

    I just read on the Porsche website: 911 Turbo S - the new benchmark. 

    Benchmark? Compared to...? Certainly not compared to the MP4-12C or the Aventador. 

    Yes, I ordered this car and I really heard a lot of good things about it but is it enough? The new Turbo S was never that expensive, so at least I would like to know in detail what I ordered before I actually get the car. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    TB993tt:

    I just had a peak at some of the technical specs and see that the turbo produces its 520PS at 6000 to 6500rpm and the S its 560PS from 6500 to 6750rpm so I stand corrected looks like the S is a relative (for a turbo) screamer Smiley

    --3.9  GT2 2011 make over

    Pretty good for a 911 Turbo, but the twin-turbo V8 in the MP4-12C makes bigger power to 8.5k redline...


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I don't like chassis dynos and I have no idea which McLaren engine (rating) this is but the runs below tell us enough to know that Porsche twin turbo torque is the biggest fattest mountain out there kiss


    --



     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    991 Turbo

     

    991 Turbo S

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    wow no


    --
    Off enjoying my car...

    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    lets use 2013 mp4 figures. i wonder if 650hp/ 850nm are possible with 991 turbo S


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    KresoF1:

    In what terms? Official 0-200km/h is 10.3s, if your question will press cars beat this figure? Answer is depending on the magazine. German AZ for sure will get better results. Sport Auto probably not...

    Is 991 Turbo S capable to get below 30s for 0-300km/h? I do not think so. 560ps is despite known fact that Porsche "560ps" are probably the most powerfull "560ps" is still 560ps and you can not expect miracle here.

    Look what cars can get below 25s in 0-300km/h... Ferrari F12 with 740ps, Murci and few others.

    For below 30s in 0-300km/h you need more then 630ps and better gearing then the one Porsche is using on PDK in 991 Turbo/Turbo S. 318km/h is achieved in 6th gear at almost 6900rpm which means that you have only 300rpm till limiter. With current PDK gearing new Turbo S simply can not go faster then say it 323km/h.

    All other sportscars equiped with DTC gearboxes are using 7th gear as power gear(458 Italia, F12 Berlinetta, SLS AMG GT). Only MP4-12C is using pretty long 7th gear as well.

    Reasons are EU6 regulation that Porsche craves for and "fake" fuel consumption values. Just check out fuel consumption values offically presented by Porsche for 991 Turbo S... 

    Not so good... Very expensive car comparing to old turbo! But acceleration-wise is almost the same.... Lets see real lide tests and after that make a decision


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    KresoF1:

    991 Turbo

     

    991 Turbo S

     

    Almost identical to the V8 TT from the Panamera Smileyand all 3 begin to run out of puff  between 6,000rpm ~ 6500rpm  Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    TB993tt:

    I don't like chassis dynos and I have no idea which McLaren engine (rating) this is but the runs below tell us enough to know that Porsche twin turbo torque is the biggest fattest mountain out there kiss

     

    That is very impressive, but remember that the GT2RS tested doesn't burn any power/torque by spinning the front axle.  Makes a huge difference on a chassis dyno.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    BiTurbo:

    Almost identical to the V8 TT from the Panamera Smileyand all 3 begin to run out of puff  between 6,000rpm ~ 6500rpm  Smiley

     

     

    Because unlike McLaren who spec-ed their turbo to run all the way to 8500rpm, Porsche spec-ed theirs to ends around 6500-7000. 

    Porsche's torque curve is more down low in the rpm range, improves everyday driving responses, it doesn't need high revs. 

    McLaren's turbo makes less torque can rev to higher rpm. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Whoopsy:
    BiTurbo:

    Almost identical to the V8 TT from the Panamera Smileyand all 3 begin to run out of puff  between 6,000rpm ~ 6500rpm  Smiley

    Because unlike McLaren who spec-ed their turbo to run all the way to 8500rpm, Porsche spec-ed theirs to ends around 6500-7000. 

    Porsche's torque curve is more down low in the rpm range, improves everyday driving responses, it doesn't need high revs. 

    McLaren's turbo makes less torque can rev to higher rpm. 


    I would like to see (and buy) best of both worlds: Porsche low end torque curve combined with McLarens's high rev torque. Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Rossi:
     

    I would like to see (and buy) best of both worlds: Porsche low end torque curve combined with McLarens's high rev torque. Smiley

    I am pretty sure that Porsche could somehow combine both but it remains a mystery why they don't.
    Maybe it has something to do with product differentiation, every single product  (911) needs to deliver a certain set of features without actually sharing features with other products in the model line (911).

    Porsche misses an opportunity here: I wouldn't mind spending money on a "sport" package or "performance package" option, which could not only include chassis/steering setup mods but also engine mods.

    Speaking of engine mods, I heard a pretty weird rumor today but I'm not even sure I should post it: Porsche could offer a Powerkit for the 991 Turbo S (not the Turbo), rumored power is 590 hp. Sounds weird? Well, I thought the same. If so, I just hope they offer a retrofit. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    ^ If that rumor is true.... the car is already overpriced and buyers are supposed to spend another 15 - 20k to get close to 600hp enlightened

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    In all fairness to the bashing here - no competition in my eyes has the everyday and specially all year performance of the turbo - it sucks big time for my RS to put it away from Oct - March-April because of weatherconditions here in Switzerland - and I am seriously thinking of adding a TTS just to overcome that gap - u won't hardly see a Gallardo or a R8 on the week-ends to go skiing - but here in CH you see a lot of 4S and turbo's being driven hard in winter-times. (dunno where the new front lip will take the new S - but the 997 model was no issue)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    BiTurbo:

    ^ If that rumor is true.... the car is already overpriced and buyers are supposed to spend another 15 - 20k to get close to 600hp enlightened

     

    True but this is also the reason I hope this rumor is actually BS. On the software side, considering the current boost pressure of the Turbo S, I don't think there is much room for a power boost. On the hardware side though, considering that Turbo and Turbo S share the same hardware, it could be possible. Then, however, it is very unlikely because it could/should only cost the same on both cars. So it would actually make sense to offer such a powerkit for the Turbo S only. 

    I really don't want to believe this powerkit rumor, it would really make me mad to be honest. Porsche already raised the 991 Turbo S price tag to a whole new level, so asking even more money for more power would be kind of... Smiley

    What I would love to see however is a power bump of let's say 20 hp with a next software update, like McLaren did with their MP4-12C. I think this was genius, a very nice gift for owners.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    BjoernB:

    In all fairness to the bashing here - no competition in my eyes has the everyday and specially all year performance of the turbo - it sucks big time for my RS to put it away from Oct - March-April because of weatherconditions here in Switzerland - and I am seriously thinking of adding a TTS just to overcome that gap - u won't hardly see a Gallardo or a R8 on the week-ends to go skiing - but here in CH you see a lot of 4S and turbo's being driven hard in winter-times. (dunno where the new front lip will take the new S - but the 997 model was no issue)

    This is actually one of the reasons I'm getting one but seriously, if I would live in Miami (or somewhere sunny for that matter), I would probably choose the MP4-12C. Even if many potential 991 Turbo S customers won't seriously consider the MP4-12C, McLaren actually added A LOT of question marks to Porsche's 911 Turbo sales strategy.

    I know that Porsche is reading this, so maybe they take our opinions seriously and don't just ignore them because we are just a bunch of "internet nuts". Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    hehehe

    Christian,i hope Porsche read also that i can take a GT3 RS if it start around 160 K Euros with 21% vat,if not after loose a Turbo S sale,they will not sell also a Gt3 RS... no big numbers here,but i know other guys in Italy( that like me come from 996 TT and 997 TT),that choose other insted of the 991 TT/TTS due to the costs.So...maybe better to listen customers feedback.

    We are a little part of the world with good and bad,not only "internet nuts".indecision

     


    --

    997TT RS Tuning stage II,2011 Cayenne Turbo


     
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