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    Re: the RMS issue continues with the 997(S)?

    Maybe I'm missing something but doesn't the guy own a 996 Carrera 2? Please "enlighten" me.

    Re: the RMS issue continues with the 997(S)?

    RC is correct. It is one of those second-hand internet stories that a 997 somewhere in the U.S. had a RMS failure. God knows our 997's will have their share of problems, like all cars. For Porsche's sake, I sincerely hope that they have ironed-out this issue with the 997 model run. After all, they have had at least 7 years to figure it out.

    Re: the RMS issue continues with the 997(S)?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Maybe I'm missing something but doesn't the guy own a 996 Carrera 2? Please "enlighten" me.



    "...and there was a 997S with 2K miles diagnosed with a RMS, clearly this problem has not been fixed with the 3.8L either."

    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=176362

    C4S Surgeon is a respected Rennlist member who only reported what he SAW. Sorry guys, you're gonna have to work harder to refute the evidence that since 1997 Porsche has been selling the same M96 motor with the same RMS problem and that this practice continues unabated in the latest bored out version.

    RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    JasonF said:
    For Porsche's sake, I sincerely hope that they have ironed-out this issue with the 997 model run. After all, they have had at least 7 years to figure it out.



    Amen Brother!

    I'm curious why RMS leaks have been such an issue for so long. What in the engine design makes this such a chronic problem for Porsche? Is it the split crankcase? Or is the high failure rate a misperception?

    Oil seals are nothing new, and modern polymers should make them bullet proof.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Quote:
    JasonF said:
    For Porsche's sake, I sincerely hope that they have ironed-out this issue with the 997 model run. After all, they have had at least 7 years to figure it out.



    Amen Brother!

    I'm curious why RMS leaks have been such an issue for so long. What in the engine design makes this such a chronic problem for Porsche? Is it the split crankcase? Or is the high failure rate a misperception?

    Oil seals are nothing new, and modern polymers should make them bullet proof.



    Just like there is no problem with the Cayenne throttle hesistation.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    The issues in those threads have not been confirmed as RMS failures. At this point this is speculation.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    The issues in those threads have not been confirmed as RMS failures. At this point this is speculation.



    Oh really? What exactly constitutes confirmation in your book - a public service announcement on TV by Porsche itself or what?

    "...and there was a 997S with 2K miles diagnosed with a RMS, clearly this problem has not been fixed with the 3.8L either."

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    The issues in those threads have not been confirmed as RMS failures. At this point this is speculation.



    Oh really? What exactly constitutes confirmation in your book - a public service announcement on TV by Porsche itself or what?

    "...and there was a 997S with 2K miles diagnosed with a RMS, clearly this problem has not been fixed with the 3.8L either."



    My understanding ist that neither have been positively confirmed. I'm as interested in learning about this as anyone, but I do not care for speculation.

    I think that on a statistical basis RMS failures are a few percent. Is it unfortunate? Yes. However, many engines do leak, Porsche's included. The different shaft design on the M96 engine is the reason for the occasional RMS failure. I'm in the camp who thinks PAG should take care of any repair (or engine replacement) even if the warranty has expired. As long as they do that it's fine w/ me.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    The issues in those threads have not been confirmed as RMS failures. At this point this is speculation.



    Oh really? What exactly constitutes confirmation in your book - a public service announcement on TV by Porsche itself or what?

    "...and there was a 997S with 2K miles diagnosed with a RMS, clearly this problem has not been fixed with the 3.8L either."



    My understanding ist that neither have been positively confirmed. I'm as interested in learning about this as anyone, but I do not care for speculation.

    I think that on a statistical basis RMS failures are a few percent. Is it unfortunate? Yes. However, many engines do leak, Porsche's included. The different shaft design on the M96 engine is the reason for the occasional RMS failure. I'm in the camp who thinks PAG should take care of any repair (or engine replacement) even if the warranty has expired. As long as they do that it's fine w/ me.



    Doesn't look like speculation to me AT ALL. C4S Surgeon had his car in for service and saw a 997S in there as well. Do you think he just pulled the 2k miles or RMS diagnosis out of his rear end or do you suppose it came from someone in service or sales? Did you even bother to get in touch with him to check it out before accusing him of speculating or is it easier just to condemn?

    As for a small %, a poll conducted on Rennlist suggests it's close to 35 to 40%! That's not what I consider a small %. The problem is such a low % that the dealership "tool pants" works for requires THREE RMS failures on 911s and FOUR on Boxsters before a new engine is ok'd!!! There is NO excuse for this crap to still be going on from 1997!!!!! A friend of mine is on his 3rd or 4th in 50k miles and that is just WRONG. Why should he have to pay for RMS repairs out of warranty when Porsche KNOWS this to be a defect in their design? Like BMW extending the warranty on their grenading M3 motors to 10 years and 100k miles, Porsche should step up and replace RMS failures and/or engines which are out of spec which they know will require RMS replacements multiple times as a result. Their failure to do so illustrates a complete lack of concern for their customers and reputation vs. profits. Given they've coward away from racing since 1998, their reputation is all they have and it would be good if they'd stop pissing on it.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Now Ben, C4S surjeon himself said that he had no more info on it and will try to confirm it, since he was told it was an "RMS leak" on the fly but could find out more about it, and then in another thread said he was told it was an "oil leak".
    As an out of warranty sufferer of the RMS issue (and no, in Spain, Porsche does not take responsibility of RMS leaks out of warranty) I'm the first one who will jump on Porsche's back at the first sign of the RMS issue continuing in the 997, but there are many posible/comon places were the leak could be coming from that we ussually jump to "RMS" before checking it out. This single leak rumor has been spread to in 3 different forums already and not by C4S surjeon, he just mentined it on one thread and other peopple took it form there. Until confirmation, a simple VIN and Tool Pants sain he would check up the repairs done, we should not jump into conclusions. I like Antonio am very interested on this and keeping a close eye on RMS in the 997 but do not care for specualtions either just to hurt Porsche.
    Besides one RMS leak would not prove anything either, any car can have an RMS leak on (rarely but happens) but the 996 RMS leak issue was/is ridiculous, there were/are so frequent (about 30% of cars) that if its true that its not fixed in the 997 then we will soon find out sure enough from the numerous report that will be appearing. As soon as I find confirmed cases of RMS leaks like in the 996, I will surely post them here so that everybody knows about it.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Now Ben, C4S surjeon himself said that he had no more info on it and will try to confirm it, since he was told it was an "RMS leak" on the fly but could find out more about it, and then in another thread said he was told it was an "oil leak".
    As an out of warranty sufferer of the RMS issue (and no, in Spain, Porsche does not take responsibility of RMS leaks out of warranty) I'm the first one who will jump on Porsche's back at the first sign of the RMS issue continuing in the 997, but there are many posible/comon places were the leak could be coming from that we ussually jump to "RMS" before checking it out. This single leak rumor has been spread to in 3 different forums already and not by C4S surjeon, he just mentined it on one thread and other peopple took it form there. Until confirmation, a simple VIN and Tool Pants sain he would check up the repairs done, we should not jump into conclusions. I like Antonio am very interested on this and keeping a close eye on RMS in the 997 but do not care for specualtions either just to hurt Porsche.
    Besides one RMS leak would not prove anything either, any car can have an RMS leak on (rarely but happens) but the 996 RMS leak issue was/is ridiculous, there were/are so frequent (about 30% of cars) that if its true that its not fixed in the 997 then we will soon find out sure enough from the numerous report that will be appearing.



    I agree fully with most of what you say. I've asked C4S how he acquired that conclusion and am awaiting the response. Ordinarily I'd give Porsche the benefit of the doubt but we KNOW the RMS issue has remained from the bored out 3.4 to the 3.6 (as well as various Boxster variants) and I have no reason to suspect it will cease with the latest 3.8 bore except that the RMS part number is a Cayenne one. However, the problem often was the engine (not the RMS) being out of spec which would render a new RMS part a useless solution. Upon TWO "confirmed" RMS failures on the new 3.8 M96 motor, I think at that point all of us can reasonably assume nothing has changed rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    I completely agree with you Ben, personally I don't think either that its solved in the 997 (maybe in the 997S it is, but I still doubt it). Its something they have not fixed in 7 years and FOUR different engine versions of the basic RMS leak engine design, and they have claimed that it was fixed several times before already as well without being true. But until we have a couple of confirmations I shall give them the benefit of the doubt, I would find hard to understand why they would allow it to continue into the 997, but...

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    The issues in those threads have not been confirmed as RMS failures. At this point this is speculation.



    Oh really? What exactly constitutes confirmation in your book - a public service announcement on TV by Porsche itself or what?

    "...and there was a 997S with 2K miles diagnosed with a RMS, clearly this problem has not been fixed with the 3.8L either."



    My understanding ist that neither have been positively confirmed. I'm as interested in learning about this as anyone, but I do not care for speculation.

    I think that on a statistical basis RMS failures are a few percent. Is it unfortunate? Yes. However, many engines do leak, Porsche's included. The different shaft design on the M96 engine is the reason for the occasional RMS failure. I'm in the camp who thinks PAG should take care of any repair (or engine replacement) even if the warranty has expired. As long as they do that it's fine w/ me.



    Doesn't look like speculation to me AT ALL. C4S Surgeon had his car in for service and saw a 997S in there as well. Do you think he just pulled the 2k miles or RMS diagnosis out of his rear end or do you suppose it came from someone in service or sales? Did you even bother to get in touch with him to check it out before accusing him of speculating or is it easier just to condemn?



    Please do not accuse me of doubting C4S Surgeon's word (someone I respect). C4S Surgeon quoted the service manager saying that "...told me about a 997S that was having an oil leak problem. I asked about it later, they said they 'fixed' the problem. I didn't want to pry as it's not even my car and they didn't want to discuss it either." An oil leak can be many things, not necessarily an RMS failure.

    BTW... ToolPants - who you quote below - is one who on that thread asked for proof.

    Note - Ben - why do you come across so aggressive? For someone who I suspect is a nice guy, it is out of character.

    Quote:
    As for a small %, a poll conducted on Rennlist suggests it's close to 35 to 40%! That's not what I consider a small %.



    I doubt it is that high percentage. What is your basis to state that? 2% is the actual RMS failure rate my dealer has experienced - and I know they were telling me the truth.


    Quote:
    The problem is such a low % that the dealership "tool pants" works for requires THREE RMS failures on 911s and FOUR on Boxsters before a new engine is ok'd!!! There is NO excuse for this crap to still be going on from 1997!!!!! A friend of mine is on his 3rd or 4th in 50k miles and that is just WRONG. Why should he have to pay for RMS repairs out of warranty when Porsche KNOWS this to be a defect in their design? Like BMW extending the warranty on their grenading M3 motors to 10 years and 100k miles, Porsche should step up and replace RMS failures and/or engines which are out of spec which they know will require RMS replacements multiple times as a result. Their failure to do so illustrates a complete lack of concern for their customers and reputation vs. profits. Given they've coward away from racing since 1998, their reputation is all they have and it would be good if they'd stop pissing on it.



    I agree that PAG should fully take care of all RMS failures - say within 10 years/100k miles.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    ben, there is no confirmed RMS issue YET.
    All defective 997 Carrera S 3.8 l engines have to be sent back to Porsche for analysis, right now NO dealer repairs are approved.
    So if a dealer claims a 997 Carrera S has a RMS issue, he can't be right because he can't analyze the engine and has to send it to Porsche. That simple.

    And there is no M96 3.8 engine, only a M97 3.8.

    To Nick: the hesitation has not been denied by Porsche, they just claim it is the original setup of the car as intended by development. They also claim that customers asked for this setup and I have to blame a little bit US customers for this setup because it was THEM who made complaints about a too aggressive throttle response on the Cayenne S at the beginning. I salute the soccer moms...

    Please guys, stay with facts, no rumors.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Well, I wonder why C4S Surgeon stated unequivocally "...diagnosed with a RMS" (note his conclusion from the information and context of it: "clearly this problem has not been fixed with the 3.8L either.") and told us the service "manager" was the source of that diagnosis but then later said "that's what the service manager told me about a 997S that was having an oil leak problem"? So which was it? Did the service manager tell him it was "diagnosed as a RMS" failure or "an oil leak"?

    This whole situation sounds fishy. Anyway, I'm sure time will tell whether there is still an RMS problem. If there is, they may be able to hide a couple cases, but the internet (and Motor Trend pool cars) will reveal it soon enough.

    "I doubt it is that high percentage. What is your basis to state that? 2% is the actual RMS failure rate my dealer has experienced - and I know they were telling me the truth."

    Didn't Carlos from Spain used to work for Porsche? He claims the failure rate is 30%. So, according to Carlos, my 35% to 40% actual poll results from Rennlist were a little high, but your dealer's 2% number is absurdly low.

    "Note - Ben - why do you come across so aggressive?"

    No idea except for maybe the denial and defensiveness is so strong here that I become a bit frustrated. At times it feels like a cult wherein it's brainwashed members strive daily to reject anything contrary and at the same time seek out any reenforcing information.

    As relates this aggregious customer screwing RMS problem, "can Ferrari do this"? Or is this where we all post Ford GT recalls as if the news of them gives us a hard on?

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Didn't Carlos from Spain used to work for Porsche? He claims the failure rate is 30%.



    were did you get that impression!? I deal with spines not cars I have no relation to Porsche except being an owner, just for the record

    As to the 30% incidence rate claim, thats the result from a survey conducted by the Porsche Club of GB among Boxster owners. Now they are conducting a survey among carrera owners. Thats the best information that is out there right now on the issue. Dealers are notoriously lying about the issue, just like they were liying to onwers when they were telling people that the RMS isssue was fixed with the 2002 new seal, although some of them admit to custormers the amount of RMS reapairs they do per week and from the reports I have heard its around that ballpark. All anyone needs to do is take a look at the web boards and see that the RMS is by far the most common issue in the carreras and boxsters.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:...
    This whole situation sounds fishy. Anyway, I'm sure time will tell whether there is still an RMS problem. If there is, they may be able to hide a couple cases, but the internet (and Motor Trend pool cars) will reveal it soon enough.



    That is why I said that this is speculation at this point. Having said that... it does not surprise me if the RMS problem will continue as it is inherently a long shaft design issue that when it is a bit off spec reveals itself.

    Quote:
    "I doubt it is that high percentage. What is your basis to state that? 2% is the actual RMS failure rate my dealer has experienced - and I know they were telling me the truth."

    Didn't Carlos from Spain used to work for Porsche? He claims the failure rate is 30%. So, according to Carlos, my 35% to 40% actual poll results from Rennlist were a little high, but your dealer's 2% number is absurdly low.



    That is the percentage I keep hearing.

    Quote:
    "Note - Ben - why do you come across so aggressive?"

    No idea except for maybe the denial and defensiveness is so strong here that I become a bit frustrated. At times it feels like a cult wherein it's brainwashed members strive daily to reject anything contrary and at the same time seek out any reenforcing information.

    As relates this aggregious customer screwing RMS problem, "can Ferrari do this"? Or is this where we all post Ford GT recalls as if the news of them gives us a hard on?



    This is a Porsche forum and if there is some reaction is to the posts that often have no point other than putting down and minimizing this forum member's choices. No P-car forum member denies the obvious corrections that PAG should/must make when warranted.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Please excuse my ignorance, but what does "RMS" stand for?

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    Raven said:
    Please excuse my ignorance, but what does "RMS" stand for?



    RMS - Rear Main Seal

    It's the seal surrounding the shaft in the back of the engine - connecting to the transmission.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:...
    The denial and defensiveness is so strong here that I become a bit frustrated. At times it feels like a cult wherein it's brainwashed members strive daily to reject anything contrary and at the same time seek out any reenforcing information.




    This is a Porsche forum and if there is some reaction is to the posts that often have no point other than putting down and minimizing this forum member's choices. No P-car forum member denies the obvious corrections that PAG should/must make when warranted.


    Well said
    (you saved me from spending a lot of time trying to respond as concisely as you did )

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Didn't Carlos from Spain used to work for Porsche? He claims the failure rate is 30%.



    were did you get that impression!? I deal with spines not cars I have no relation to Porsche except being an owner, just for the record

    As to the 30% incidence rate claim, thats the result from a survey conducted by the Porsche Club of GB among Boxster owners. Now they are conducting a survey among carrera owners. Thats the best information that is out there right now on the issue. Dealers are notoriously lying about the issue, just like they were liying to onwers when they were telling people that the RMS isssue was fixed with the 2002 new seal, although some of them admit to custormers the amount of RMS reapairs they do per week and from the reports I have heard its around that ballpark. All anyone needs to do is take a look at the web boards and see that the RMS is by far the most common issue in the carreras and boxsters.



    Oh, I think maybe I got you confused with Frissen? I could have sworn you sold Pcars, but recently left.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:...
    The denial and defensiveness is so strong here that I become a bit frustrated. At times it feels like a cult wherein it's brainwashed members strive daily to reject anything contrary and at the same time seek out any reenforcing information.




    This is a Porsche forum and if there is some reaction is to the posts that often have no point other than putting down and minimizing this forum member's choices. No P-car forum member denies the obvious corrections that PAG should/must make when warranted.


    Well said
    (you saved me from spending a lot of time trying to respond as concisely as you did )



    Fair enough, but does black and white thinking (ie: Porsche vs. the world) have to be so prevelant here to participate here? Why can't we appreciate the strengths of other auto manufacturers (instead of just the short comings) as well as explore Porsche's short comings (instead of just the strengths)?

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Oh, I think maybe I got you confused with Frissen? I could have sworn you sold Pcars, but recently left.



    Oh, I see now Yeah, that was Frissen in Mexico I believe.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Shaft seal failure is usually the result of:
    misalignment of seal to shaft
    shaft out of round
    Shaft whipping as it rotates

    Why any of these conditions should exist in a Porsche engine is beyond me.

    The fix for any of these conditions cannot be done inexpensively, as they all involve re-machining the seal mounting position, the crankshaft or a re-design of the crankshaft and/or block.

    In my opinion, no amount of replacment seals of any design is going to resolve this problem if the underlying geometry is wrong.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    DD694 said:
    Shaft seal failure is usually the result of:
    misalignment of seal to shaft
    shaft out of round
    Shaft whipping as it rotates

    Why any of these conditions should exist in a Porsche engine is beyond me.

    The fix for any of these conditions cannot be done inexpensively, as they all involve re-machining the seal mounting position, the crankshaft or a re-design of the crankshaft and/or block.

    In my opinion, no amount of replacment seals of any design is going to resolve this problem if the underlying geometry is wrong.



    Judging from the length of time and number of motors made since 1997 together with Porsche's engineering prowess, I'd say you're likely right that there is no way they can fix this without the expenditure of tremendous resources. If it was fixable, Porsche would have done so by now.


    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Judging from the length of time and number of motors made since 1997 together with Porsche's engineering prowess, I'd say you're likely right that there is no way they can fix this without the expenditure of tremendous resources. If it was fixable, Porsche would have done so by now.





    On this board and others, there are several hundred 997/997S owners. Yet not one single one has come forward with a RMS failure. Based on the failure rate on the 996, you would expect several if not many would have already had experienced this failure. There have already been at least 1500 cars sold in the US already, where are these RMS failures? Until it is confirmed, it is pure speculation.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Judging from the length of time and number of motors made since 1997 together with Porsche's engineering prowess, I'd say you're likely right that there is no way they can fix this without the expenditure of tremendous resources. If it was fixable, Porsche would have done so by now.





    On this board and others, there are several hundred 997/997S owners. Yet not one single one has come forward with a RMS failure. Based on the failure rate on the 996, you would expect several if not many would have already had experienced this failure. There have already been at least 1500 cars sold in the US already, where are these RMS failures? Until it is confirmed, it is pure speculation.



    it's way too early to tell given the number of deliveries, number of deliveries represented by these message boards, and the number of miles thus far driven given the recent release of the car.

    Re: RMS, why an issue at all?

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Judging from the length of time and number of motors made since 1997 together with Porsche's engineering prowess, I'd say you're likely right that there is no way they can fix this without the expenditure of tremendous resources. If it was fixable, Porsche would have done so by now.





    On this board and others, there are several hundred 997/997S owners. Yet not one single one has come forward with a RMS failure. Based on the failure rate on the 996, you would expect several if not many would have already had experienced this failure. There have already been at least 1500 cars sold in the US already, where are these RMS failures? Until it is confirmed, it is pure speculation.



    it's way too early to tell given the number of deliveries, number of deliveries represented by these message boards, and the number of miles thus far driven given the recent release of the car.




    Ben: I see the circle is closed... you also agree that it is speculation. Good!

    Re: the RMS issue continues with the 997(S)?

    When did Rennteam become the Rennlist link list?
    Anyway, seriously, I'm _hearing_ rumours of the 997 having the 996 RMS failure and I'm hearing rumours of the 997S _not_ having the RMS problem (hand machined or GT1 casing? but it's all heresay ... has anyone got the poop/skinny on this situation?

    Right now, I'm looking at a lag/surge Cayenne or an RMS/lemon 997 ... life's tough, I know ... but is there a basis for either accusation to either vehicle?

    Adam

    ps. please advise before year-end ...

     
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    the-missile
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