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    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Absolutely, the overall trend (not only for Porsche) is down-sized turbo charged engines ...

    I suspect, V10 and V12 engines are now things from the past ...


    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Carlos from Spain:
    KresoF1:
    SciFrog:
    7.50? That is fast, way above all competitors... Faster than an R8 or an LP560-4 or an F430 coupe!
    7.50min for 2000kg car with 500ps/700Nm???! Some people are taking some heavy ACID indeed...
    Absolutely! are we kidding? on production car specs and tires? lets get real, it will be lucky to dip bellow 8:00 mins mark in WR's hands... 2000kg/500HP... An M5 is much lighter and smaller and has same HP, and if I remember correctly HvS's time was 8:05...

    --
    I tend to agree with Carlos on this: if the Panamera turbo should lap the ring in 8.00 to 8.10 that would be a good result. I mean this car is extremely heavy and also a sedan with a certain level of comfort left. Below 8.00? Extremely unlikely if you ask me...

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Definitely not in production guise. I do believe that the car could in fact achieve a 7:50 lap during development, with sticky tyres, special suspension setup and much more power (just look at the GT-RSmiley ). However, since Kreso has already stated that the RS6 is actually quicker, this doesn´t leave much doubt as to how fast the production model is going to be. Then again, who uses a 2-ton limo as a Ring blaster anyway?  

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Emperor:
    reginos:

    I expect a higher cc V8 engine and perhaps a V10 top model at the FL stage.

    I wouldn't disregard a huge diesel too.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts
    Not going to happen. A V10 is way too expensive to develop and there is no way VW will give Porsche access to the Lambaudi V10 found in the RS6 and gallardo. Not only that but the engine is very heavy, V8 turbo is more efficient. Forget about the CGT V10, taming it for the Cayenne and Panamera is too expensive. The trend is V8 turbo.

    Doesn't look like Porsche needs to 'ask' VW to do anything at this point.

    They OWN them.


    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Theoretically YES, Porsche owns VW with potentially 74% of the voting rights, legally NOT yet. As of today they "only" have 42% of the voting rights ...

    Right now, every deal between Porsche and VW is examined by an independent committee to make sure it's done on a "arm length" basis.

    If today, Porsche wants to get the V10, they have to pay Audi a "fair price" for it .... Actually, getting the V6 diesel for the Cayenne didn't come dirt cheap.

    In the future, when they will have signed a "domination and profit & loss transfer agreement" between them, then there will be "no restriction", BUT not now.  


    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    By the way, everybody says, Panamera is heavy (approx 2.0t) but does anyone knows it for sure.

    To the best of my knowledge, Porsche didn't say anything yet. We can only assume it's a heavy car because it's a big car, but we don't know. 


    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Turbo V8 4WD and PDK could be near 2.000kg...but...what about a V6 RWD manual? 

    1.750kg?


    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    MKSGR:
    I tend to agree with Carlos on this: if the Panamera turbo should lap the ring in 8.00 to 8.10 that would be a good result. I mean this car is extremely heavy and also a sedan with a certain level of comfort left. Below 8.00? Extremely unlikely if you ask me...
    Actually the leaked info about the NoS laptime does not say 7:50, but 7:57 (in WR's hands) Smiley Could well be - assuming that the driving dynamics will be somewhat superior compared to the M5 (would be very disappointing if not...)

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Porsche-Jeck:
    MKSGR:
    I tend to agree with Carlos on this: if the Panamera turbo should lap the ring in 8.00 to 8.10 that would be a good result. I mean this car is extremely heavy and also a sedan with a certain level of comfort left. Below 8.00? Extremely unlikely if you ask me...
    Actually the leaked info about the NoS laptime does not say 7:50, but 7:57 (in WR's hands) Smiley Could well be - assuming that the driving dynamics will be somewhat superior compared to the M5 (would be very disappointing if not...)
    Could be but even in WR's hands, I think it would still have to be a pre-production version that he is testing and not in final customer spec form (weight, tires, suspension setup, etc)

    --

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Enzo911:

    Turbo V8 4WD and PDK could be near 2.000kg...but...what about a V6 RWD manual? 

    1.750kg?

    I doubt that ANY Panamera will weight below 1.9 tons but I love surprises. Smiley

    One reason Porsche didn't publish the final specs is the still pending certification process for certain markets and of course some important decisions about standard options and pricing.

    Last time I asked, I heard a something close to around 2100 kg for a Panamera Turbo AWD with PDK. I assume that the V6 is only 100 kg lighter, so it would actually mean 2 tons for the V6.

    Honestly, I don't know but we need to understand that Porsche wants to earn money with the Panamera, so like always: we do not get what we pay for. So I'm expecting a very high price tag and a very high weight figure.

    The Panamera will be fast, even on the track, no doubt about it. Still: the competition in the limousine/sedan market is huge, there is no easy way to destroy the competition.

    Porsche needs to be careful with their pricing of the Panamera.

    I recently checked out the new BMW 750i(F01). For aprox. 100000 EUR (incl. 19% german VAT) after some rebate from the local BMW dealer, you get a pretty well equipped and decent limousine with an incredible chassis setup.

    I'm afraid 100000 EUR buys you a well equipped Panamera V8 only and this is just not enough for me.

    I hope I'm wrong and I hope Porsche realizes how important it is to start with a reasonable pricing on the Panamera but I'm afraid that, like always, greed will prevail.




    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    RC:
    Fact is: I drive over 300 kph almost each and every day.

    Bloody paradise....Smiley Smiley



    --
    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    But this is not new. Most BMW models are much cheaper than the comparable Porsche ones.

    Z-series compared to the 987, the 135i compared to the Cayman, M3 compared to Carrera, X5 compared to Cayenne, they all have a price advantage.

    BMW is an excellent mainsteam manufacturer whereas Porsche even with some 100k sales worldwide is exclusive. It is the same with the marketing of all brands from clothes and handbags to watches and cars. The more exclusive you are the more you can charge. Brands like Bentley for example are more exclusive than Porsche and can charge even more, etc etc.

    Many members here own or have owned several Porsches and they tend to get a bit cynical and blasé about the Porsche  marque and brand. However, this is not the case with the rest of the potential buyers in the market. Also in some lucrative emerging markets the gap between what is perceived as exclusive and the more mainstream brands is even wider and the price differential can reflect that.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    RC:


    I recently checked out the new BMW 750i(F01). For aprox. 100000 EUR (incl. 19% german VAT) after some rebate from the local BMW dealer, you get a pretty well equipped and decent limousine with an incredible chassis setup.




    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW
    RC, would you care to elaborate? I am currently very curious about the last 7-series. Smiley

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

     interesting discussion on high end car prices, may be helpful to those thinking of big purchases ;

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217717&page=18


    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Does anyone have an insight into the # of rear seats in the Panamera ?  i.e. 2 or 3 ?  I hope it's 3 ... we are a family of 5.    My 997 C2S is great  for me and my wife, or me and the kids, but we can't all fit !!

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    2 bucket seats in the back only.
    --
    Happy Driving

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    It's actually not two bucket seats, but a traditional bench that is somewhat biased for two passenger though it's looks capable of accommodating three people. After all the car is wider than the S-class, it would be stupid if it couldn't take more than two people in the back.

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    I have seen all the internet-based pics and descriptions of the Panamera and have had the opportunity to view Porsche's "exclusive" Panamera images and videos on their porscheusa.com/4uncompromised private showing as a Porsche customer.  I am still trying to figure out how the Panamera is coming out the way it seems.

     

    The problem with this car for me (as a Porschephile and even more so a 911 Turbophile) is that PAG attempted to make their first 4-door production CAR (excepting the 4-door Cayenne SUV) using the 911-sloped rear profile to tie the vehicle to the 911's DNA (a not unreasonable approach), turning the car into a "hatchback" (despite some illogical protestations here that it is not) or, perhaps, a "station wagon-sedan" hybrid vehicle.  But the 911 was originally designed with a sloped rear profile because it contained the engine back there-so that's how Buetzi penned it, form following function.  But in the Panamera's case, the engine of course is in front, so the sloped rear gains function (only) by turning it into a larger cargo bay-again, larger than a sedan's, but smaller than a true station wagon's bay.  Now if PAG had actually put the Panamera engine in the rear, that would have been cool.

     

    Then PAG decided to make the Panamera not only a 4-door hatchback, but also a very large (longer than 195 inches or 16 and 1/4 feet)  and heavy (more than two tons in Turbo/AWD setup) luxury vehicle, in essence to compete with the larger luxury/sporty cars in its competition-BMW 7-series, MB S-class, Audi S8, and Masi Q-porte, AM Rapide, amongst others.  But alas, the Panamera becomes a car that seats only four passengers, two in front and only two in back.  So we end up with a strange looking, very large and heavy, 4-door car that seats only four people.  Sure it will have a decent amount of power in Turbo guise, and the suspension, materials and craftsmanship will be advanced and respected, but it will drive more like a 747 rather than a Lear Jet, even with a Turbo equipped with a powerkit or aftermarket tuning.  I don't care if WW required that he comfortably fit into the rear seats.  This car with this size needs to be able to haul us parents and kids around, and that means occasionally putting three or even four in back.  If PAG wanted to make their first 4-door (and 4-passenger) sports sedan a domineering sports car, they should have targeted the BMW M3, MB E63 AMG and the Audi RS4. 

     

    If PAG actually did consult PCNA and the American market when designing this car, that consultation certainly didn't include me. 

     

    I don't get it.

     

     


    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Al,

    I initially thought that Panamera would be competing with Bimmer 5 and MB E class too but as it was posted  last week Porsche had Eastern Europe (in particular Russia), China and India in mind the so called emerging market.

    U.S. customers would lean more towards MB and BMW for Luxury Sedans, I'm sure they'll sell some but won't be a large number in the states.  Also in particular hatchback cars don't appear as prestigious as regular sedan.  I think that's why station wagons never took off in the U.S..


    --
    Happy Driving

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Anyone see Top Gear last night?

    Clarkson slated the Panamera photo saying it reminded him of an Austin Maxi!

    He said he never wanted to see the car ever again and probably wouldn't because nobody will buy one. Smiley



    --
    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Like we wrote over a year ago: the Panamera competes against the S-class and 7 series.

    I also highly doubt it that the Panamera was intended mainly for emerging markets. I think it is a nice "excuse" for Porsche now to lower expectations from the US market and Europe because of the current financial crisis worldwide. I'm afraid this won't work, simply because the financial crisis will (and already did) hit "emerging markets" too.

    A huge state construction company in Dubai started laying off employees, many factories in China closed down and even in Russia, the rich are starting to worry.

    When I've been confronted with the name Panamera for the first time, Porsche apparently was hoping for yearly sales figures in the 50000 range as rumors indicated by that time. You can't do that with emerging markets only, not now and not even a year ago.

    The controversial rear of the Panamera may be the controversial identity mark Porsche wanted to have to make the Panamera special. Indeed, no other limousine has this look but I also think that this time, they're going to fail with this design.

    When the Cayenne showed up and said to myself: oh boy, what an ugly duckling. Despite my disliking of this SUV, it sold like crazy for at least 2-3 years, making sure that Porsche remains an independent company. I would even speculate that the Cayenne made it possible to overtake Volkswagen, as crazy as this may sound.

    The Panamera follows in the Cayenne's footstep but this is a different market now.

    Not only is there much more competition (BMW, Mercedes, Maserati, Audi), the products of the competition are really good.

    In my opinion, Porsche is too expensive and not exclusive enough. Personally, I couldn't care less if Porsche sells 5000 Panamera or 50000 Panamera per year. However: if they want to sell 50000 Panamera, they better make it cheaper.

    I really love Porsche and over the past two or three years, quality has increased a lot, the products are very good. With one exception: they're too expensive.

    You can't sell mass production products at a premium price, especially not now during this current financial crisis. I just hope that Porsche realizes it and I hope that they're going to put the Panamera in a very competitive price range. If not, I can't see how the Panamera will be a success, simply because this limousine has too many design flaws in my opinion.

    I may be wrong but when money is tight, people think twice before spending much money on a car.


    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Ziggy:
    RC:


    I recently checked out the new BMW 750i(F01). For aprox. 100000 EUR (incl. 19% german VAT) after some rebate from the local BMW dealer, you get a pretty well equipped and decent limousine with an incredible chassis setup.

     

     


     



    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW
    RC, would you care to elaborate? I am currently very curious about the last 7-series. Smiley

    I'm trying to convince CR (the other "half" of Rennteam) to write a driving report, including pictures. He is driving the new 7 series (F01) for some time now (mainly the Diesel version) and he gets his 750iL soon. I'm pretty sure that we're going to see some interesting driving report from him.

    I'm not a friend of big limousines but I really like the new 7 series. Especially the interior is a treat in my opinion, gadget lovers will just love it. The new chassis apparently makes the 7 series one of the fastest limousine on the Nordschleife and if you're looking for a credible time, you need to wait until April or so next year because I already know somebody who wants to break his personal 7 series record in his 750iL. Smiley



    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    I guess Porsche is changing its plan after realizing emerging market suddenly became important for Panamera Smiley.

    http://www.worldcarfans.com/9081201.016/porsche-panamera-debut-delayed-until-shaghai-auto-show-in-april



    --
    Happy Driving

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    The new 7 series has the electronic adjustable sways like the PDCC on the Cayenne Turbo. I hope Porsche includes this on the Panamera as it is excellent!
    --

    track vid

    0-300kph

    chasing a 997GT2




    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    RC:

    In my opinion, Porsche is too expensive and not exclusive enough. Personally, I couldn't care less if Porsche sells 5000 Panamera or 50000 Panamera per year. However: if they want to sell 50000 Panamera, they better make it cheaper.

    I really love Porsche and over the past two or three years, quality has increased a lot, the products are very good. With one exception: they're too expensive.

    You can't sell mass production products at a premium price, especially not now during this current financial crisis. I just hope that Porsche realizes it and I hope that they're going to put the Panamera in a very competitive price range. If not, I can't see how the Panamera will be a success, simply because this limousine has too many design flaws in my opinion.

    I may be wrong but when money is tight, people think twice before spending much money on a car.


    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JC

    RC,

    IMHO, you can extend your view even further.  All the Porsche products are mass produced and very expensive and for the same reason other than the exclusive models such as GT3s, GT2s, resale values are terrible.

     

    In our market these cars are very very expensive, almost 110% tax is added to importing price and the final price comes to something really absurd.  Basic Boxster is more than 100000€.   Interesting enough, we are flooded with Cayennes, Carreras (they sold alot of 997s 95%tipS in 4S trim)  and even before the crisis hit the global markets there were too many of second hand Porsches all around that resale values were dip down in the toilet.   Thats not really the case with Q7s or X5s, X6s.  Now when I think about it, I feel like an idiot.  It makes me wanna burn the mofo down so that I can claim from insurance and believe me situation was simply the same before the crisis.  These cars don't hold their value at all.  In my opinion, Porsche will do the same (if economy permits) for the Panamera.  It will sell alot and once the second hands start to appear in the market, the depreciation will be huge.  Porsche might get hurt from this strategy in the long run. 


    --

    2006 C4S --to be ditched soon..

    Suzuki Burgman AN400


    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Turbo Al:

    So we end up with a strange looking, very large and heavy, 4-door car that seats only four people.  [...]

    This car with this size needs to be able to haul us parents and kids around, and that means occasionally putting three or even four in back.

     Al,

    that very same description fits to a Maybach, Continental GT or Phantom and these cars sell like hot cakes in NA. If you want to carry people, you unfortunately have to get something different. This is not a minivan!

    Let´s wait half a year to see how the car will turn out. The only thing I seriously complain about is the fact that on both, Cayenne and Panamera, PAG drew the line a tad to soon. They could´ve done better in some regards and make the car even more individual but refused to do so. I am primarily referring to the exorbitant weight of both models and while thismight not be an issue in Dubai´s desert or Russia´s taiga, it sure is of economical and social importance in several western countries.


    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Queram:
    RC:

    In my opinion, Porsche is too expensive and not exclusive enough. Personally, I couldn't care less if Porsche sells 5000 Panamera or 50000 Panamera per year. However: if they want to sell 50000 Panamera, they better make it cheaper.

    I really love Porsche and over the past two or three years, quality has increased a lot, the products are very good. With one exception: they're too expensive.

    You can't sell mass production products at a premium price, especially not now during this current financial crisis. I just hope that Porsche realizes it and I hope that they're going to put the Panamera in a very competitive price range. If not, I can't see how the Panamera will be a success, simply because this limousine has too many design flaws in my opinion.

    I may be wrong but when money is tight, people think twice before spending much money on a car.


    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JC

    RC,

    IMHO, you can extend your view even further.  All the Porsche products are mass produced and very expensive and for the same reason other than the exclusive models such as GT3s, GT2s, resale values are terrible.

    In our market these cars are very very expensive, almost 110% tax is added to importing price and the final price comes to something really absurd.  Basic Boxster is more than 100000€.   Interesting enough, we are flooded with Cayennes, Carreras (they sold alot of 997s 95%tipS in 4S trim)  and even before the crisis hit the global markets there were too many of second hand Porsches all around that resale values were dip down in the toilet.   Thats not really the case with Q7s or X5s, X6s.  Now when I think about it, I feel like an idiot.  It makes me wanna burn the mofo down so that I can claim from insurance and believe me situation was simply the same before the crisis.  These cars don't hold their value at all.  In my opinion, Porsche will do the same (if economy permits) for the Panamera.  It will sell alot and once the second hands start to appear in the market, the depreciation will be huge.  Porsche might get hurt from this strategy in the long run. 


    --

    2006 C4S --to be ditched soon..

    Suzuki Burgman AN400

    As long as Porsche can portrait  themselves as exclusive brand they still have 10 to 20 years to penetrate other markets such as China and India.  In those countries Porsche still bears the name and brand that once stood for the 930s, 964s and 993s.  By the time they realize the trick Porsche is laughing to the Bank.

    --
    Happy Driving

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    Emperor:
    It's actually not two bucket seats, but a traditional bench that is somewhat biased for two passenger though it's looks capable of accommodating three people. After all the car is wider than the S-class, it would be stupid if it couldn't take more than two people in the back.
    NO, there are TWO rear seats. This is directly from Porsche Cars Canada who said that the trans tunnel makes it impossible to have a center seat. It is a four seat car.

    --
    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    ok fellas .... im over my initial shock and finally able to write my thoughts on the panamera ..., im going to try and be as brief and concise as possible .... Its horrible!

    I know that it will probably be an amazing car from a technical point of view, but the bottom line is that its ugly.  Sorry but thats that.   Smiley Smiley


    Re: Panamera - Official Pictures & Specs

    haha, now the big question is how many people buy it who don't care about the looks... i think the majority buys without being is critical as we are here on rennteam. I mean the front is right on the money, everyone will love it in their driveway/garage..

    I think Porsche is being very smart with this thing once again writing history. If you make it look like any other sedan, you have less to build on and the high end sedan market is ONE of the most tight and competitive markets out there with really really loyal members!!

    In making the Panamera look quite different, yet very Porsche, Porsche is making a statement and at the same time offering people something different to go for. We all know the new trend is sporty yet spacious cars... kinda like mini or smaller lower SUVs with better performance.. we see them popping up right about now and its just that start. BMW X6, VAS5, Audi Q5 and whatnot... i think Porsche is ahead of the game!!!

    The more i look at the Panamera concept, the more i realize how special it is and how it will make a statement in its market segment.. I am confident the Panamera will outsell the Cayenne's records by a long shot. We will see a hybrid (hopefully just electric aid systems) in about 2-3 years which will be just in time for the line-up of people that appearently can't plan ahead. Porsche is on the money and they have a line-up in their showrooms that will do excellently till 2010 and longer.

    IMO the rear is ugly yet it is refreshingly unique making me smile... because Porsche is bold and risky... I have my hopes up for the Panamera's success!

    Then there's a new CGT, 928 and new Cayenne!!! PORSCHE IS ON FIRE!!!

    --

    2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd
    1986 Porsche 944, 5spd


     
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