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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    True, but those that do form a large enough population that it would quickly cause the infrastructure to expand else. Soon you'd find charges in parking complexes as well. Maybe not one per resident, but enough such that everyone will be able to get their car charged once a week, especially if they are able to charge so quickly.

    In the not to distant future, apartment complexes will probably need something like this to even be competitive. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Every office tower underground parking in Toronto has between 5-25 charging stations as of now. That has all come about in the last couple of years. 

    I think swappable battery packs that are universal will solve the problem of range. Just like a propane tank that you return and grab a new one that is full only paying for the propane and not the tank (after the initial buy-in). Gas stations turn into battery depots. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    alexalex88:

    I don't buy the pesimist scenario that RC is drawing.

    We are in 2016. All combustion cars will be banned from the center of the cities. ELVs are already a reality. Tesla as a single company has improved a lot every aspect of his cars and now the big names are joining and putting big money on it.

    Two decades for the required tech to make ELVs usable? Lmao, even nowadays you can drive 300-400 km with a single charge and you have 150-200 km in just 20 mins, pretty liveable figures if you ask me.

    General Motors is citing up to 40% degradation in range for its Chevrolet Bolt in year eight of ownership.  While 40% degradation may be a worse case scenario, it is indicative of the fragile state of lithium ion battery technology as it ages.   Further supporting that position is General Motors is utilizing a more efficient battery chemistry compared with Tesla.  Few eight year old ICE vechicles demostrate an equivalent falloff in performance. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    In Spain law alows you to install your own charging system in the shared parkings, even if your neightbours don't agree.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    alexalex88:

    I don't buy the pesimist scenario that RC is drawing.

    We are in 2016. All combustion cars will be banned from the center of the cities. ELVs are already a reality. Tesla as a single company has improved a lot every aspect of his cars and now the big names are joining and putting big money on it.

    Where, when? Smiley So far there hasn't been a single country to do that. Not even in the closer future. All those reports about stuff like that are declarations of intent, nothing more. Similar to the  Trump media reporting, you should try to understand what the media actually writes and reports. Smiley

    Two decades for the required tech to make ELVs usable? Lmao, even nowadays you can drive 300-400 km with a single charge and you have 150-200 km in just 20 mins, pretty liveable figures if you ask me.

    You clearly haven't used an ELV yet...especially not in a cold climate and not on the Autobahn. Smiley

    20 minutes for 150-200 km? Wishful thinking. The latest gen Tesla Superchargers need 30 minutes to charge the battery of a Tesla S P90D to be able to get to the next Supercharger. However, this only works if you aren't me (RC) Smiley because if you drive like me, full throttle whenever possible and/or on the Autobahn, you won't really get to the next Supercharger.

    Even 15 minutes would be crazy: Take your usual fuel station, look at how many cars are fueling up there during rush hour. Each driver needs about 10 minutes to fuel up, pay and drive away. If this time would increase by 5 minutes only, chaos would happen. We need much larger (electric power) charging stations for mass transport and considering the fact that it takes years to build the infrastructure (power grids, charging stations, etc.) and to PAY for it (you need investments, etc.), I think that even 20 years are not enough.

    The few ELVs driving around in Europe don't really matter right now and in the US, they have much more (free) spaces they can use for a proper infrastructure. Looking at my town for example, I cannot see where several charging stations would be located, basically impossible. Same in Munich, they would need to be outside the city, which is crazy.

    You need to think this stuff through, this isn't as easy as many politicians (or even companies) or environmental organizations wants us to think it is.

    Banning fuel operated cars from cities? Not in the near future. Maybe Diesel cars or cars with high emissions but thats it.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Fully agree with you.

    Tesla can not drive from Munich to Zagreb without recharging stop. So, bus is in the end faster. 

    Drove few times e-Golf and belive it or not it is a good car. For city driving only. In Zagreb (which is little bit larger then Stuttgart for example) driving e-Golf makes lot of sense. But, to repeat, only for city commuting. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    KresoF1:

    Fully agree with you.

    Tesla can not drive from Munich to Zagreb without recharging stop. So, bus is in the end faster. 

    Drove few times e-Golf and belive it or not it is a good car. For city driving only. In Zagreb (which is little bit larger then Stuttgart for example) driving e-Golf makes lot of sense. But, to repeat, only for city commuting. 

    For city driving, ELVs are amazing. Drove the Cayenne S eHybrid fully electric in the city and it was so much fun. Also had a Twizy once for a day since I wanted to see if this is something for my daughter. In the city, great (though the Twizy wasn't really my thing to be honest).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Whoopsy:

    Not many people live in their own house with their own garage. For people that lives in apartments and townhouses it's really not a possibility for them to install a car charger at their own parking stall.

     

    ELV fanboys would answer these folks should not own their cars and use public transportation instead.

    (Answer I received from a Tesla enthusiast when posed the same question)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC the difference is if I get caught driving 150kph on a highway I wait on the side of the road for a tow truck to come take my car to the impound lot, I get a minimum of a $3000 fine and lose my license for a week. All told it costs a min of about $20k between the fine, towing, getting the car back, increase in insurance etc...

    If the fastest I can ever reasonably drive is about 140kph and (outside of a very few trips) the farthest I drive is to our lake cottage 230km away (once to twice a month on average) than a Tesla fills almost all needs. Free charging and preferential parking at work, full tank of 'gas' every morning etc...

    I do agree with you though that the cost is much too high for the quality of the product, and as I dislike leasing cars and would prefer to finance (I generally keep my main driver for around 5 years) the cost for a Tesla becomes way too high. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Mithras:

    RC the difference is if I get caught driving 150kph on a highway I wait on the side of the road for a tow truck to come take my car to the impound lot, I get a minimum of a $3000 fine and lose my license for a week. All told it costs a min of about $20k between the fine, towing, getting the car back, increase in insurance etc...

    If the fastest I can ever reasonably drive is about 140kph and (outside of a very few trips) the farthest I drive is to our lake cottage 230km away (once to twice a month on average) than a Tesla fills almost all needs. Free charging and preferential parking at work, full tank of 'gas' every morning etc...

    I do agree with you though that the cost is much too high for the quality of the product, and as I dislike leasing cars and would prefer to finance (I generally keep my main driver for around 5 years) the cost for a Tesla becomes way too high. 

    Agreed, for speed limited countries, ELVs are a blessing (in most cases for 99% of the population)...if they are affordable and charging will be easy and fast.

    Buying new ELVs right now could be a huge financial risk, I would be careful: The technology in this field will change quickly once the major car manufacturers will enter the game big time, so be careful with buying an ELV because it could be basically unsellable after two or three years. Nobody wants to buy old or obsolete tech, look at the electronics market.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    absent:
    Whoopsy:

    Not many people live in their own house with their own garage. For people that lives in apartments and townhouses it's really not a possibility for them to install a car charger at their own parking stall.

     

    ELV fanboys would answer these folks should not own their cars and use public transportation instead.

    (Answer I received from a Tesla enthusiast when posed the same question)

    Well but what's the problem with installing a car charger in a community parking?


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    KresoF1:

    Fully agree with you.

    Tesla can not drive from Munich to Zagreb without recharging stop. So, bus is in the end faster. 

    Drove few times e-Golf and belive it or not it is a good car. For city driving only. In Zagreb (which is little bit larger then Stuttgart for example) driving e-Golf makes lot of sense. But, to repeat, only for city commuting. 

    So you'd rather take the bus than spend 20 minutes getting a coffee, stretching you legs, and charging your car?


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    If you start from Munich you have unrestricted Autobahn till Salzburg. Try to maintain average speed of around 200km/h or more in Tesla and you won't even reach Salzburg. After Salzburg it is till Zagreb restricted Autobahn with 130km/h limit. Police will tolerate up to 140km/h so, that can be your average speed. Check out what is Tesla range at 140km/h average speed? Also, where to charge the Tesla? On Adac gas station? That 600km trip would last little bit too long... 

    For example my former daily driver BMW M550d X drive Touring did the same trip with single fuel tank. Yes, it is eenvironment unfriendly diesel car. But, what an efficient car IMHO.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Well, only about 6.8 people drive from Munich to Zagreb on a weekly basis, so I don't think it will be much of an issue for most...


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    noone1:

    Well, only about 6.8 people drive from Munich to Zagreb on a weekly basis, so I don't think it will be much of an issue for most...

    And how many people are driving from Munich to Florance for example?

    In Europe Tesla will never ever have a success they are having in USA.  That is a fact.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    noone1:

    Well, only about 6.8 people drive from Munich to Zagreb on a weekly basis, so I don't think it will be much of an issue for most...

    Are you kidding? You better add a k to the 6.8 and I'm not even sure this is enough. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
    noone1:

    Well, only about 6.8 people drive from Munich to Zagreb on a weekly basis, so I don't think it will be much of an issue for most...

    Are you kidding? You better add a k to the 6.8 and I'm not even sure this is enough. Smiley Smiley

    No, I mean 6.8 people who do it each week, every week. I'm sure 10,000 people do it every week, but they aren't the same 10,000 people. For the less the 1x per year the average person makes that drive, I'm sure they could stomach a stop over to recharge.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
    noone1:

    Well, only about 6.8 people drive from Munich to Zagreb on a weekly basis, so I don't think it will be much ofan issue for most...

    Are you kidding? You better add a k to the 6.8 and I'm not even sure this is enough. Smiley Smiley

    Traffic on that Route is pretty heavy on some periods of year. But, you know it since you live not too far from Munich.

    Btw, just checked Tesla prices for Germany. Model S P100D is 160.220,00€ with Mwst in my configuration! Holy fu.k! And Porsche models are too expensive?


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    KresoF1:
    noone1:

    Well, only about 6.8 people drive from Munich to Zagreb on a weekly basis, so I don't think it will be much of an issue for most...

    And how many people are driving from Munich to Florance for example?

    In Europe Tesla will never ever have a success they are having in USA.  That is a fact.

    It's not about how many people, it's about how many do it regularly.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Just a word of caution. The autobahn is not restricted to saltzburg unless I missed something. Saltzburg is in Austria. Once you cross that border I would slow down well ahead of Saltzburg. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Salzburg is more or less at the border.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Re. Tesla range; last week I did approx. 700 km from The Hague (NL) to Wendlingen (close to Stuttgart) in my Model S90d with 50 minutes of charging at Tesla Superchargers. I would have normall made one stop to fill up my pertrol car and have a drink or a sandwich. This would have taken me say 20 min. So using the Tesla has taken rouhgly 30 minutes more. Not bad for a 700 km trip...

    Please note I did not exceed 130km/h (which is virtually impossible at the A61; either through traffic or speed limitation).

    @ RC filling up a Tesla from Supercharger to Supercharger only takes 10-15min Max. The thing is you need to arrive pretty empty, as filling up of the first 200km goes very quickly!

    Bye the way; autopilot is a great feature; in my view much safer and you get a lot less tired driving long distance.

    To be clear; I am not some EV-nerd (I also own a 458 Spider) and was rather sceptical about the Tesla, but actually I enjoy the car a lot!


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    No doubt, as a gadget lover, I would highly enjoy driving/owning a Tesla S, especially the P100D. indecision

    However, I do not know how you got 700 km out of a charge because during my last (first and only) P90D test drive, I managed to get in serious (power) trouble after only 170 km of Autobahn. angry

    Autopilot? Never tried it but I cannot imagine it can be relaxing to let the car drive but keep the hands on the steering wheel (you kept them on the steering wheel, didn't you? ).

    Maybe I do not travel enough to appreciate a relaxing ELV drive. For me, the most relaxing trip is in my...R8. Fun is more me relaxation, believe it or not. Had to drive to Munich each day for a couple of days in autumn, through heavy traffic, Autobahn, city driving and I...loved it. No ELV or normal car would have given me the same pleasure. I was always thrilled to make the drive to Munich and back because it was always so much fun.

    Only ELV ride I truly enjoyed (wasn't even a real ELV): Cayenne S e-Hybrid, driving it electric through the city. Amazing experience in such a truck. I liked the Tesla most for it's acceleration feel and all that tech inside the car, a dream come true for a gadget lover. 


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I fully agree with you on the Tesla; I love the acceleration and the gadgets of the car, but it is NOT a fun car to drive like a Ferrari or your R8. But especially here in Holland where traffic is very dense and distances short, the Tesla makes sense as commuter car.

    Ofcourse I did not do 700 km on a charge! This is impossible! I charged two times at a Supercharger along the way in Germany. Don't forget that you always leave home with a full "tank"; this helps a lot. And like I stated in my post I never exceeded 130km/h as above that speed range is terrible.

    Good chance my next "commuter" car would be the 2018 Cayenne Hybrid. The current car is certainly nice to drive, but a joke on infotainment/navigation etc (especially now after being used to the Tesla; the big screen and being connected to the Internet (4G) all the time is great!). Haven't checked out the new Panamera yet; seems they made a big step forward.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Funny that it is mainly non Tesla owners who criticize the car . Most owners actually love their Tesla . And that says a lot about the concept and if it is suitable as a DD.  I can't say it enough . Around my place I see more Tesla than Cayenne, BMW 5 or X5  ,  MB E 

     


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Gnil:

    Funny that it is mainly non Tesla owners who criticize the car . Most owners actually love their Tesla . And that says a lot about the concept and if it is suitable as a DD.  I can't say it enough . Around my place I see more Tesla than Cayenne, BMW 5 or X5  ,  MB E 

    I never really criticized the Tesla, I just said that for me, it isn't as much fun as other cars. Actually, I prefer the new Cayenne S Diesel we got over the Tesla S. However, I love the tech and the novelty factor.

    Why owners love the Tesla? Well...some are tech lovers, others want to show that they care about the environment, again others want to have something special (the Tesla is "in" in some higher society circles, believe it or not) or they just love saving fuel and driving on electric power. There are various reasons but for me personally, the Tesla would only be another toy. Yes, I would have one in my garage if I could afford having several expensive cars at the same time.

    I do not think that Tesla has a future though...once the major car manufacturers seriously enter the game.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)



    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Macan911:

    Just seen this:  http://www.autoevolution.com/news/is-this-the-porsche-mission-e-prototype-testing-at-the-arctic-circle-114522.html

     

    According to our "sources", the Mission E testing is done in Panamera and Audi(!) A6 disguise. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Just curious, given we now have details of the Panamera Sport Turismo luggage capacity (520-litre storage capacity with rear seats up) coupled with Tesla S offering decent luggage space (https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/models - 894 litres of storage).  Any idea what the Mission-E concept had, given the "press" quotes that the Mission-E production should be very close to the concept.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Lead interior designer for Mission-E project joins Tesla.

    https://electrek.co/2016/04/11/tesla-interior-designer-porsches-mission-e/


     
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