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    Porsche Mission E - the future of Porsche?

    Failed to find the earlier Mission E thread, so I'll open a new one: 

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-11/the-electric-porsche-needs-to-roar?cmpid=BBD111116_BIZ&utm_medium=email&am...


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    fritz

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E

    I hope they build it just like the concept - it is gorgeous angel


    --

    1986 BMW 325i Cabrio Alpine Weiss/Black Leather - German Spec 
    2006 Mercedes-Benz CLS 500 Black/Black Leather 

    Ex: ''91 BMW 535i, '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E

    Don't hold your breathe. They never build it like the concept.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    fritz:

    Failed to find the earlier Mission E thread, so I'll open a new one: 

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-11/the-electric-porsche-needs-to-roar?cmpid=BBD111116_BIZ&utm_medium=email&am...


    --

     

    fritz

     

    Thanks, fritz! I made it sticky and with your permission (I can delete it), I added "the future of Porsche?" to the thread title.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    One of the items of interest for me is how Porsche addresses the reliability of the battery pack.

    Both of our Teslas required a battery pack replacement.  The Roadster was many years ago, but the Model S is having its battery pack replaced under warranty as I write this.  They have been pretty nice about it.  The Model S work comes with a loaner car to drive while the work is completed.  The Roadster replacement required sending the car off (their expense) for the better part of a month and waiting until the work was done.  That was quite a few years ago while the company was still finding its way.

    So, even with a completely new battery pack arrangement in the Model S (compared to the Roadster), the reliability of the assembly still seems to be not what one is used to from IC power trains.  Two for two needing warranty work may be anecdotally non-representative, but it's all I know about.

    Does anybody know any interesting details about the Mission E battery pack and what details might lead to better-than-Tesla reliability??


    --

     

    Mike

     

    918 Spyder + 991 GT3 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    W8MM:

    One of the items of interest for me is how Porsche addresses the reliability of the battery pack.

    Both of our Teslas required a battery pack replacement.  The Roadster was many years ago, but the Model S is having its battery pack replaced under warranty as I write this.  They have been pretty nice about it.  The Model S work comes with a loaner car to drive while the work is completed.  The Roadster replacement required sending the car off (their expense) for the better part of a month and waiting until the work was done.  That was quite a few years ago while the company was still finding its way.

    So, even with a completely new battery pack arrangement in the Model S (compared to the Roadster), the reliability of the assembly still seems to be not what one is used to from IC power trains.  Two for two needing warranty work may be anecdotally non-representative, but it's all I know about.

    Does anybody know any interesting details about the Mission E battery pack and what details might lead to better-than-Tesla reliability??

    The only thing I heard is that Porsche is working on the car "ignoring" the current battery tech. At the same time, they are working with various battery tech experts (incl. a certain company) to develop new or at least improved charging and energy storing tech. Makes sense in my opinion because the current battery tech can be already outdated in 2020.

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    W8MM:

    One of the items of interest for me is how Porsche addresses the reliability of the battery pack.

    Both of our Teslas required a battery pack replacement.  The Roadster was many years ago, but the Model S is having its battery pack replaced under warranty as I write this.  They have been pretty nice about it.  The Model S work comes with a loaner car to drive while the work is completed.  The Roadster replacement required sending the car off (their expense) for the better part of a month and waiting until the work was done.  That was quite a few years ago while the company was still finding its way.

    So, even with a completely new battery pack arrangement in the Model S (compared to the Roadster), the reliability of the assembly still seems to be not what one is used to from IC power trains.  Two for two needing warranty work may be anecdotally non-representative, but it's all I know about.

    Does anybody know any interesting details about the Mission E battery pack and what details might lead to better-than-Tesla reliability??


    --

     

    Mike

     

    918 Spyder + 991 GT3 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

    Just curious as to what constitutes failure?  Sudden loss of capacity to hold a charge? 


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Porsche is seriously planning to sell over 6000 Mission E per year...not sure if this has been mentioned before.

    I still think that the German car industry and specifically VW Group, is now a little bit too enthusiastic about electric vehicles. Electric power isn't cheap in Germany (or other parts of Europe) and prices will go up next year. I also don't see any infrastructure, incl. a technical one to support millions of cars being charged, to deal with a strong increase of ELVs on the road and the fact that charging takes like forever (at least 15 minutes, if not longer), it just doesn't make it fun.

    Sorry but I'm just not that much into that ELV hype over here, some car manufacturers may jump into an ELV "adventure" prematurely. 

    I get it, they need to develop ELVs and hybrids but right now ELVs don't make much sense in my opinion. Once the charging technology (and time) and the range improve, then we can talk again. Also, we need to know how millions of ELVs will be powered without bringing the power grids down. I didn't hear of any additional investments into the ELV future from power companies.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Electric vehicles are the future, there´s no other way. Norway wants to dump fossil energy until 2025 and many other North countries of Europe will follow the same rule I´m sure. Diesel and Petrol will be left for China and Africa. Porsche and automotive industry already knows this, batteries will become lighter and last longer, price will be reduced and performance will increase much faster than we all think. Today the technology and research behind this industry is beyond real and for the next couple of years we will see more improvements than the last 10 years I´m sure.


    --

    J.Seven

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:.
    ................

    I get it, they need to develop ELVs and hybrids but right now ELVs don't make much sense in my opinion. Once the charging technology (and time) and the range improve, then we can talk again. Also, we need to know how millions of ELVs will be powered without bringing the power grids down. I didn't hear of any additional investments into the ELV future from power companies.

    I think it will take a long time just to fill the demand from people who just want a car to commute to work. As long as your daily commute to work is 75 miles or less (150 mile round trip) and you work a regular daytime schedule (so your car can charge overnight) then there are already electric cars to meet your needs. Unless your commute to work includes a blast down the autobahn, then the speeds adverse effect on range might be a problem. As long as these cars are being charged at night, it will take massive numbers of them to offset the current nightly drop in demand on the grid.

    I enjoy trying to get some people to be more realistic by pointing out the average electric prices in Los Angeles or Germany; but in reality the price of electricity per mile is roughly the same as the price of petrol per mile even in these areas. The real challenge of electric cars is figuring if their service life and overall lifetime operating cost can offset the greater initial investment and of course the limitations in capabilities. I do not anticipate charging time and range being materially altered for a long time though.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I think the German car industry is rushing into something they don't really appreciate and judge correctly.

    Let's just hope that they aren't that crazy.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I read yesterday that Porsche is looking to sell 20.000 units per year.

    They will start to make profit after reaching the 10.000 units per year Smiley

     


    --

    GT Lover

    Porsche fan

    991 GT3 2014(sold)

    CAYENNE GTS 2014


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    the-missile:

    I read yesterday that Porsche is looking to sell 20.000 units per year.

    They will start to make profit after reaching the 10.000 units per year Smiley

     

    I don't know where you read this but I heard they plan to sell 6000 in the first year and this is the goal.

    20000 per year, especially in the first year, is pretty much impossible for such a product...unless it is sensationally spectacular. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I also saw this news in local press yesterday. Source is Oliver Blume who apparently told the information to German press. Planned production start 2019!

    https://electrek.co/2016/11/28/porsche-mission-e-electric-production/


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Lukas:

    I also saw this news in local press yesterday. Source is Oliver Blume who apparently told the information to German press. Planned production start 2019!

    https://electrek.co/2016/11/28/porsche-mission-e-electric-production/

    Porsche sold around 20k Panamera in the first year as far as I remember and the Mission E is certainly less interesting for most people. Apparently they assume that they can lure over Tesla customers but I would be careful. 2019 is not far away, I just don't see how they would sell 20k cars in the first year, sorry. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/united-kingdom/article/detail/T0266320EN_GB/bmw-group-daimler-ag-ford-motor-company-and-volkswage...

    Maybe the first start? Still having my doubts though, especially regarding how much the charging will cost. In Germany, we basically have no nuclear power plants anymore and if ELVs are going to replace motor cars, I wonder where all that needed power is going to come from? yes

    I think there is a lot of political pressure here but in the end, I'm not sure how well this is going to work. Especially since ELVs are currently more expensive than "normal" cars. Also, the technology is advancing fast, buying an ELV doesn't make sense. Special lease offers would be necessary and many people don't want to lease.

    Sorry, I do not see a bright future for ELVs right now...maybe in a couple of decades.

    What the ELV industry needs is revolutionary technology to push ELVs forwards on a mass transportation scale:

    1. Faster charging (battery should be charged from 10 to 100% capacity in just 5 minutes or faster).

    2. Wireless charging (yes, no kidding but since we are talking massive power here, it will probably take decades until such a technology is available...if ever since it will be a serious challenge from a physics point of view).

    3. Fusion power (to get the necessary power at lower cost).

    In 50 years or so? Maybe. In 10 years? Very unlikely. Sorry but I have my doubts this is going to work.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    It's a start, without this kind of agreements it's difficult that such cars succed


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Bit more info in here:

    https://electrek.co/2016/11/29/ultra-fast-charging-electric-car-network-bmw-mercedes-ford-vw/

    This is very positive news and we're having some interesting times ahead. It will of course take several decades before the EV replaces fossil driven vehicles, but they need to start somewhere. I don't see any issues at all with powersupply and there is plenty of time to ramp up production in parallell. Also most EV's will be charged during night time at home and during night power usage is much lower and the overcapacity will be utilized.

    Since a Tesla can be charged about 300km in 30 minutes running their Superchargers on a 145kw power network it really looks good with this network based on 350kw power. "Filling up" 300km in about 10-15 minutes stop over is very good and for those who don't spend the entire day in the car this is more than acceptable. And why not have a 10-15 minute coffee brake each 2nd hour anyway?


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
    20000 per year, especially in the first year, is pretty much impossible for such a product...unless it is sensationally spectacular. Smiley

    And much more affordable than speculated so far...


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    The boss is looking to sell that much and expecting it.

    profit will start at 10,000 unit a year.

    I am not worried about PAG, they know how to give you the want to buy anything they release.

    For sure it looks a lot, but hey it is only 54 cars per day for the entire world and if the performance figures are crazy, it will sell like hot potatoes.


    --

    GT Lover

    Porsche fan

    991 GT3 2014(sold)

    CAYENNE GTS 2014


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Grant:
    RC:
    20000 per year, especially in the first year, is pretty much impossible for such a product...unless it is sensationally spectacular. Smiley

    And much more affordable than speculated so far...

    One must consider the various government subsidies to promote the adoption of EVs as another incentive for the acquirer.  This is a major factor with Tesla.  Norway, for example, has set the way for subsidies to promote EVs.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    CGX car nut:
    Grant:
    RC:
    20000 per year, especially in the first year, is pretty much impossible for such a product...unless it is sensationally spectacular. Smiley

    And much more affordable than speculated so far...

    One must consider the various government subsidies to promote the adoption of EVs as another incentive for the acquirer.  This is a major factor with Tesla.  Norway, for example, has set the way for subsidies to promote EVs.

    The German government subsidies for ELVs don't apply for the (rumored) price range of the Mission E.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    What is the rumour on the Mission E price range?


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Macan911:

    What is the rumour on the Mission E price range?

    Surprisingly low. The base model was rumored at around 80-90k EUR at some point but apparently you can add numerous options, incl. larger batteries, more power and so on.

    I don't have a clue though since I was never interested in this car. Maybe this is going to change when it actually shows up?!


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Thanks RC.  I suspect at some point in the next 10 years, we might all need to be interested in the Mission E or subsequent evolutions given the proposed ban on car sales in various European countries from 2025.

    UK subsidies for ELVs will likewise I believe not apply to Mission E as per Germany

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Macan911:

    Thanks RC.  I suspect at some point in the next 10 years, we might all need to be interested in the Mission E or subsequent evolutions given the proposed ban on car sales in various European countries from 2025.

    UK subsidies for ELVs will likewise I believe not apply to Mission E as per Germany

     

    We just need to wait and see. I do not think that European countries can decide on their own to ban new non-electric cars from their streets, this could lead to many law suits in the EU court. This probably needs to be a EU decision and we all know how long this could take. Smiley

    Also, I still think that car manufacturers should be careful here. The electric power infrastructure is lacking resources and of course there is the lack of charging infrastructure. We are not talking a few charging stations here and there, we are talking charging stations at a very big scale. Also, since cars need at least 10-15 minutes to be charged, these charging stations need to be much bigger than your usual fuel stations. A fuel station can handle 100 cars per hour because cars stay a couple of minutes and are gone then. Not the same with ELVs, they need much larger areas and more charging stations to complete the same task for 100 cars. This is going to be a huge challenge.

    There is also electric power cost. Electric power isn't cheap and if people get the feeling that it is going to cost them more to run an ELV, they won't be thrilled to get one.

    Many many problems, I think that politicians should turn down their anti-motor vehicle rhetorics a notch because right now, there are huge challenges to face first and I do not see a major ELV breakthrough over the next decade or so, sorry. At least not in Europe where electric power is expensive and we don't have the necessary free spaces to locate huge charging stations within cities. Most of these stations will very likely be outside cities, which will also create a problem. 

    Charging at home? Wishful thinking. Most people live in apartments and park their cars outside on the road, so how the heck should they charge their cars over night? Impossible. Unless we make new roads with built-in power outlets or equip street lanterns with charging capabilities. Smiley Things aren't that easy, the infrastructure will be a huge challenge, especially in Europe.

    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Agree on the charging infrastructure. Its the big unknown.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Initiatives like  http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/97849/bmw-ford-vw-and-others-to-create-vast-european-ev-charging-network are good, and is clearly the only way to make this happen, as Porsche can't go alone due to the large cost.  However, its going to take a massive push for charging stations outside of cities, and rural areas in my view.

    Tesla charging stations are laughable if you look at this map for the UK:  https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/supercharger , and forget it if you are in Ireland

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Macan911:

    Agree on the charging infrastructure. Its the big unknown.

    Wireless charging while driving, this would be huge. Or wireless charging at a charging station, another great step. Especially if it would take less than 5 minutes. The car "identifies" itself at the charging station, you can stay inside your car and do whatever you want and the car gets charged. Such a technology will be available at some point but I'm afraid I won't really be alive anymore when this happens. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
    Macan911:

    Agree on the charging infrastructure. Its the big unknown.

    Wireless charging while driving, this would be yuuuge.

    Fixed it Smiley


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
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