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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    In % terms, 991 turbos seems to depreciate way more than McLaren or Lamborghini. Panamera and higher model cayennes are even worse. 

    For example, there is not a single used 991.1 turbo s cabriolet selling for below 150.000 Euro in Germany, these cars are approx. 50.000km and 3 years old. This would be a discount of approx 30% vs MSRSP. Assuming most buyers get approx 5% discount that would result in about 25% vs retail price. I am sure you will have a very hard time in selling a used McLaren with these km and age specs with just 25% discount vs retail (i.e. for about 205.000 Euro, assuming you paid approx. 270.000 for it)...

    Germany isn't the only market in the world.

    This car started at minimum $200K base. Now it's asking $140K, so you can assume another $5-10K off. So it's lost $65-70K in value, and that's assuming you had not a single additional option on the car. Add a few options which won't materially change the resale price and you're down $70-80K.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-Porsche-911-TURBO-S-CABRIOLET-CONVERTIBLE-AWD-/351997265803?hash=item51f4ac078b:g:82IAAOSwCU1Ynzow&...

    Nothing unique here. Not a bad car or spec. Just the reality of Porsche depreciation. Also now consider that a 650S Spider in the US is typically over $300K. These cars are down about $100K. Yeah, maybe few thousand less miles than a Porsche, but all exotics get less mileage in real usage anyway, so no big deal. Mileage discounts aren't significant on McLarens until you get into like 20K miles. 1K and 7K mile cars tend to have more or less the same price.

    So percentage wise, the difference isn't significant.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    My gut tells me it will takes ages to sell one of these used McLaren...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    Buying a $250k car when you make $300k a year seems like a really bad idea...

    You are safe to assume that most buyers of these cars are less wealthy / have lower income than one would expect... Most people with money have no interest in exotic cars (in a sense they would get one or even several). Buyers are mostly younger freaks, many of them spending a disproportional share of their wealth / income on cars.

    One should not forget that cars (even high-priced ones) are "cheap" compared to really expensive things... Thus they are no real sign of wealth, although this may sound strange.

    Highly disagree. You need high income to even get financing, let alone to have $300K in cash just laying around to blow on a car. I'd be willing to bet the average income of most McLaren and modern exotics as easily above $250K.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    In % terms, 991 turbos seems to depreciate way more than McLaren or Lamborghini. Panamera and higher model cayennes are even worse. 

    For example, there is not a single used 991.1 turbo s cabriolet selling for below 150.000 Euro in Germany, these cars are approx. 50.000km and 3 years old. This would be a discount of approx 30% vs MSRSP. Assuming most buyers get approx 5% discount that would result in about 25% vs retail price. I am sure you will have a very hard time in selling a used McLaren with these km and age specs with just 25% discount vs retail (i.e. for about 205.000 Euro, assuming you paid approx. 270.000 for it)...

    Asking price are meaningless:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-Porsche-911-Turbo-Coupe-2-Door-/391725037961?hash=item5b34a1b989:g:GrIAAOSwsW9YwvCE&vxp=mtr

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-Porsche-911-/302247309058?hash=item465f57ef02:g:kMgAAOSwTuJYvkTb&vxp=mtr

    One for $110k one for $200k. I seriously doubt a 3 year old TTS sells for more than $120k and a 4 year old one $100k.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    2nd 991 turbo has aftermarket stuff.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MKSGR:

    My gut tells me it will takes ages to sell one of these used McLaren...

    Takes long to sell any used exotic that is asking market price. Want to move it fast? Sell it a little under market. There was a thread on F chat about a seemingly nice, according to the comments, 458 having sat at the dealer for 200 days.

    Such is life when you want top dollar for an exotic.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Topspeed:

    2nd 991 turbo has aftermarket stuff.

    And so it should sell for even less... Aftermarket usually substracts value to a car.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    Buying a $250k car when you make $300k a year seems like a really bad idea...

    You are safe to assume that most buyers of these cars are less wealthy / have lower income than one would expect... Most people with money have no interest in exotic cars (in a sense they would get one or even several). Buyers are mostly younger freaks, many of them spending a disproportional share of their wealth / income on cars.

    One should not forget that cars (even high-priced ones) are "cheap" compared to really expensive things... Thus they are no real sign of wealth, although this may sound strange.

    Highly disagree. You need high income to even get financing, let alone to have $300K in cash just laying around to blow on a car. I'd be willing to bet the average income of most McLaren and modern exotics as easily above $250K.

    IMHO anyone making less than a couple of million $ and buying a $250k car should have their head checked...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    Buying a $250k car when you make $300k a year seems like a really bad idea...

    You are safe to assume that most buyers of these cars are less wealthy / have lower income than one would expect... Most people with money have no interest in exotic cars (in a sense they would get one or even several). Buyers are mostly younger freaks, many of them spending a disproportional share of their wealth / income on cars.

    One should not forget that cars (even high-priced ones) are "cheap" compared to really expensive things... Thus they are no real sign of wealth, although this may sound strange.

    There is truth in what you say but the socio economic context is much more complicated than that. In the Northeast there are a lot of very wealthy people who dont care about cars. In our neighborhood in Miami it seems like everyone cares about nice cars even people far from being really wealthy.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:
    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    Buying a $250k car when you make $300k a year seems like a really bad idea...

    You are safe to assume that most buyers of these cars are less wealthy / have lower income than one would expect... Most people with money have no interest in exotic cars (in a sense they would get one or even several). Buyers are mostly younger freaks, many of them spending a disproportional share of their wealth / income on cars.

    One should not forget that cars (even high-priced ones) are "cheap" compared to really expensive things... Thus they are no real sign of wealth, although this may sound strange.

    Highly disagree. You need high income to even get financing, let alone to have $300K in cash just laying around to blow on a car. I'd be willing to bet the average income of most McLaren and modern exotics as easily above $250K.

    IMHO anyone making less than a couple of million $ and buying a $250k car should have their head checked...

    Now that I disagree with. Average new car price in the US is like $35K. Needless to say, average income isn't anywhere 10x that amount. Exotic cars are for the rich and those who like cars. Anyone with a hobby or passion will obviously spend a more significant amount of money on such things.

    $250K would be fine for purchasing a $250K car IMO, or a significant net worth. Not buying a new one every year, obviously. At the end of the day, it's also an asset. The cost of owning a $400K Aventador for the last 5 years has actually been more like $130K. I paid $200K for my 12C and I could get $140-ish for it 4 years later, so it cost me maybe $80K over 4 years. Easily affordable for someone with a $250K annual income.

    Cheaper to own an exotic than it is to fly first class a few times per year...

    That said, thanks for revealing your income, SciFrog ;) Guess we know who to hit up for a loan 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Your reasoning doesn't hold. In most of the USA people have to own a car, and people making $35k a year dont buy $35k cars especially that they probably need two of them for the family, they simply cannot pay the lease. I seriously stand by my assessment that if you dont make a couple of mil gross you shouldn't get close to a $250k car. That's how you get in trouble and frankly it is that kind of thinking that made the last crisis much worse than it should have been.

    Not sure why anyone would care but how could you guess my income from my comments? Plus I don't even own a car worth $250k angel  (Unless some crazy guy pays up for a manual 612, if you know one I might get into a FF).


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    There's a lot more to it than just income.  Living costs, future expected earnings, how much you have saved, whether you have kids education to pay for, etc.  I would not expect $250k / year income to be enough to afford a $250k car in most instances IMO.

    Say you are 30 years old, making $250k / year.  Did you just start making $250k because you graduated from medical school and finished residency?  Chances are you have $0 to your name and probably even in debt due to school.  Maybe you live in San Francisco where a decent apartment is $4k a month.  Then $250k car is ridiculous.  You won't have enough left over to save for retirement.  And if you have to choose between taking your girlfriend to a nice dinner once a week or owning a McLaren, then you cannot afford the car.

    On the other hand, maybe you live in an area with very low housing costs, no kids, and have already saved in the 7 figures for retirement.  Buying a $250k car still doesn't make financial sense, but easier to justify in this case.

    Personally I would not buy a $250k car without making at least 7 figures a year (or have already saved enough for retirement), but it depends on a lot of circumstances.

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    True, was mostly making the case for a normal middle aged family with no massive pre existing wealth.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    4trac:
    SLICKNICK:

    Regarding the steering discussion, actually, it has a bit of a hybrid system introduced with thsi 720S, which they call the electro-hydraulic steering, not 100% hydraulic, like it was with the previous McLaren models

    My understanding (and McL owners may correct me) is that their system has always been electro-hydraulic from day 1, but the electro part is just an electric motor that pressurizes the hydraulic line (ie as opposed to an engine driven belt) - the rack itself is full hydraulic assist thus preserves traditional steering feel. 

    Edit: just to make sure this is understood- here is a pic of the first 12C; clearly showing the electric motor / pump, short black hydraulic lines to the rack, and the hydraulic rack.  Slick system, and I have always thought Porsche caved too quickly to full electric steering. 

    IMG_0730.JPG
    --

     

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

     

    Correct - this electro-hydraulic steering is totally hydraulic with pump pressurized by electric motor (no parasitic drag on the engine).

    Porsche still chose to continue this superior practice on the 991.2 Cup and RSR, but not for the road cars Smiley

    Cheers to McLaren and Ferrari who are 2 of the only production sports cars to continue with hydraulic steering on street cars (Lotus and a couple more too). Smiley


    --

     

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

     SciFrog, totally agree with you.  Even taking into account low depreciation, there is potentially a cash flow problem of purchasing something you cannot afford to keep long term. 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Eh, I don't see the big deal. It's not like everyone is loaded up with debt and dependencies and big houses. Most people I know making $250K+ plus have no debt, dont own a home, don't have families to support, and have a ton of disposable income.

    If you like cars, spend money on a car you like. If you like watches, collect expensive watches. If you traveling, invest in traveling.

    Doesn't RC have like $500K worth of cars in his signature, yet he's always crying poor? He definitely doesn't make $5M per year from what I can tell, but he seems to be fine.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    vantagesc:

     SciFrog, totally agree with you.  Even taking into account low depreciation, there is potentially a cash flow problem of purchasing something you cannot afford to keep long term. 

    You can't have a cash flow problem if you have very low expenses relative to your income in the first place. $250K/year is like $15K/month take home. 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:
    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    In % terms, 991 turbos seems to depreciate way more than McLaren or Lamborghini. Panamera and higher model cayennes are even worse. 

    For example, there is not a single used 991.1 turbo s cabriolet selling for below 150.000 Euro in Germany, these cars are approx. 50.000km and 3 years old. This would be a discount of approx 30% vs MSRSP. Assuming most buyers get approx 5% discount that would result in about 25% vs retail price. I am sure you will have a very hard time in selling a used McLaren with these km and age specs with just 25% discount vs retail (i.e. for about 205.000 Euro, assuming you paid approx. 270.000 for it)...

    Asking price are meaningless:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-Porsche-911-Turbo-Coupe-2-Door-/391725037961?hash=item5b34a1b989:g:GrIAAOSwsW9YwvCE&vxp=mtr

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-Porsche-911-/302247309058?hash=item465f57ef02:g:kMgAAOSwTuJYvkTb&vxp=mtr

    One for $110k one for $200k. I seriously doubt a 3 year old TTS sells for more than $120k and a 4 year old one $100k.

    I don't see your point - you are posting eBay lots Smiley We are talking about higher value cars. Who sells them on eBay?


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:
    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    In % terms, 991 turbos seems to depreciate way more than McLaren or Lamborghini. Panamera and higher model cayennes are even worse. 

    For example, there is not a single used 991.1 turbo s cabriolet selling for below 150.000 Euro in Germany, these cars are approx. 50.000km and 3 years old. This would be a discount of approx 30% vs MSRSP. Assuming most buyers get approx 5% discount that would result in about 25% vs retail price. I am sure you will have a very hard time in selling a used McLaren with these km and age specs with just 25% discount vs retail (i.e. for about 205.000 Euro, assuming you paid approx. 270.000 for it)...

    Asking price are meaningless:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-Porsche-911-Turbo-Coupe-2-Door-/391725037961?hash=item5b34a1b989:g:GrIAAOSwsW9YwvCE&vxp=mtr

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-Porsche-911-/302247309058?hash=item465f57ef02:g:kMgAAOSwTuJYvkTb&vxp=mtr

    One for $110k one for $200k. I seriously doubt a 3 year old TTS sells for more than $120k and a 4 year old one $100k.

    I don't see your point - you are posting eBay lots Smiley We are talking about higher value cars. Who sells them on eBay?

    I buy and sell on eBay. Pretty much every exotic dealer in the country sells cars on eBay.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:
    MKSGR:

    My gut tells me it will takes ages to sell one of these used McLaren...

    Takes long to sell any used exotic that is asking market price. Want to move it fast? Sell it a little under market. There was a thread on F chat about a seemingly nice, according to the comments, 458 having sat at the dealer for 200 days.

    Such is life when you want top dollar for an exotic.

    Your enthusiasm is nice. But I know what I am talking about Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:
    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    Buying a $250k car when you make $300k a year seems like a really bad idea...

    You are safe to assume that most buyers of these cars are less wealthy / have lower income than one would expect... Most people with money have no interest in exotic cars (in a sense they would get one or even several). Buyers are mostly younger freaks, many of them spending a disproportional share of their wealth / income on cars.

    One should not forget that cars (even high-priced ones) are "cheap" compared to really expensive things... Thus they are no real sign of wealth, although this may sound strange.

    Highly disagree. You need high income to even get financing, let alone to have $300K in cash just laying around to blow on a car. I'd be willing to bet the average income of most McLaren and modern exotics as easily above $250K.

    IMHO anyone making less than a couple of million $ and buying a $250k car should have their head checked...

    In this case, most high-value car brands would be bankrupt Smiley Did you check how many people in the US make >2m US$ per year? How many even consider a high-performance sports car? See the problem Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MKSGR:
    noone1:
    MKSGR:

    My gut tells me it will takes ages to sell one of these used McLaren...

    Takes long to sell any used exotic that is asking market price. Want to move it fast? Sell it a little under market. There was a thread on F chat about a seemingly nice, according to the comments, 458 having sat at the dealer for 200 days.

    Such is life when you want top dollar for an exotic.

    Your enthusiasm is nice. But I know what I am talking about Smiley

    Took 2 weeks to sell a $100K R8 on eBay. Had offers within the day. There are always people looking for exotics, even $200K ones. Want to sell a $200K car quickly? Price it $10K under market and it will be gone very quickly.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    This discussion pretty much proves MKSGR's point I suppose re surprisingly low (relative term) incomes.  Anyway, if you are buying a car equal to your yearly income, then that certainly means you are foregoing a lot of other things, including possibly saving for retirement.

    "Afford" is a relative term for sure.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:
    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    Buying a $250k car when you make $300k a year seems like a really bad idea...

    You are safe to assume that most buyers of these cars are less wealthy / have lower income than one would expect... Most people with money have no interest in exotic cars (in a sense they would get one or even several). Buyers are mostly younger freaks, many of them spending a disproportional share of their wealth / income on cars.

    One should not forget that cars (even high-priced ones) are "cheap" compared to really expensive things... Thus they are no real sign of wealth, although this may sound strange.

    There is truth in what you say but the socio economic context is much more complicated than that. In the Northeast there are a lot of very wealthy people who dont care about cars. In our neighborhood in Miami it seems like everyone cares about nice cars even people far from being really wealthy.

    That is true for many parts of the world Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:
    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    In % terms, 991 turbos seems to depreciate way more than McLaren or Lamborghini. Panamera and higher model cayennes are even worse. 

    For example, there is not a single used 991.1 turbo s cabriolet selling for below 150.000 Euro in Germany, these cars are approx. 50.000km and 3 years old. This would be a discount of approx 30% vs MSRSP. Assuming most buyers get approx 5% discount that would result in about 25% vs retail price. I am sure you will have a very hard time in selling a used McLaren with these km and age specs with just 25% discount vs retail (i.e. for about 205.000 Euro, assuming you paid approx. 270.000 for it)...

    Asking price are meaningless:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-Porsche-911-Turbo-Coupe-2-Door-/391725037961?hash=item5b34a1b989:g:GrIAAOSwsW9YwvCE&vxp=mtr

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-Porsche-911-/302247309058?hash=item465f57ef02:g:kMgAAOSwTuJYvkTb&vxp=mtr

    One for $110k one for $200k. I seriously doubt a 3 year old TTS sells for more than $120k and a 4 year old one $100k.

    I don't see your point - you are posting eBay lots Smiley We are talking about higher value cars. Who sells them on eBay?

    I buy and sell on eBay. Pretty much every exotic dealer in the country sells cars on eBay.

    Really Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Yes it is common in the USA...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:
    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    Buying a $250k car when you make $300k a year seems like a really bad idea...

    You are safe to assume that most buyers of these cars are less wealthy / have lower income than one would expect... Most people with money have no interest in exotic cars (in a sense they would get one or even several). Buyers are mostly younger freaks, many of them spending a disproportional share of their wealth / income on cars.

    One should not forget that cars (even high-priced ones) are "cheap" compared to really expensive things... Thus they are no real sign of wealth, although this may sound strange.

    Highly disagree. You need high income to even get financing, let alone to have $300K in cash just laying around to blow on a car. I'd be willing to bet the average income of most McLaren and modern exotics as easily above $250K.

    IMHO anyone making less than a couple of million $ and buying a $250k car should have their head checked...

    In this case, most high-value car brands would be bankrupt Smiley Did you check how many people in the US make >2m US$ per year? How many even consider a high-performance sports car? See the problem Smiley

    There are plenty of families making over $1m a year... it's the USA, not France 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:

    Yes it is common in the USA...

    I have bought my last four porsches on eBay and have made great deals trading them back in on eBay as well. Not ever individual sellers mind you.  Only registered dealers with outstanding feedback.  

    I know I can't ever justify the expense of driving my car especially since I have several others. It is just a hobby so I make certain never to borrow money and keep it all cash.  


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:
    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:
    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    Buying a $250k car when you make $300k a year seems like a really bad idea...

    You are safe to assume that most buyers of these cars are less wealthy / have lower income than one would expect... Most people with money have no interest in exotic cars (in a sense they would get one or even several). Buyers are mostly younger freaks, many of them spending a disproportional share of their wealth / income on cars.

    One should not forget that cars (even high-priced ones) are "cheap" compared to really expensive things... Thus they are no real sign of wealth, although this may sound strange.

    Highly disagree. You need high income to even get financing, let alone to have $300K in cash just laying around to blow on a car. I'd be willing to bet the average income of most McLaren and modern exotics as easily above $250K.

    IMHO anyone making less than a couple of million $ and buying a $250k car should have their head checked...

    In this case, most high-value car brands would be bankrupt Smiley Did you check how many people in the US make >2m US$ per year? How many even consider a high-performance sports car? See the problem Smiley

    There are plenty of families making over $1m a year... it's the USA, not France 

    There is a big difference between an annual income of 1m and 2m Smiley There are approx. 250.000 people in the US in the 1m+ bracket (based on IRS data). 5m+ is approx 10% of that (that is: 25.000 people) , so 2m+ should be somewhere in between. Most of these people are not interested in owning one or even several flashy high-performance sportscars, though Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    vantagesc:

     SciFrog, totally agree with you.  Even taking into account low depreciation, there is potentially a cash flow problem of purchasing something you cannot afford to keep long term. 

    One reason I mostly lease my cars. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


     
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