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    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    Guys, I actually believe Americans make great sportscars but they are missing out an opportunity to make even better ones and ones which would actually appeal to a broader audience, incl. the super sportscar audience.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    Eh, Americans already outsell the Europeans when it comes to sport cars. The appeal of American sport cars are usually the price/performance. Focus RS, Mustangs, Corvettes, Vipers. How many more sports cars do they needs? It's not like the Europeans make that many. They just stick M and AMG badges on their sedans.


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    I don't know, I still think that US manufacturers are giving up a huge market. Regarding M Gmbh and AMG: I don't know much about M GmbH but as to AMG just sticking AMG badges to Mercedes sedans, I would really recommend a visit at AMG in Affalterbach. I had a new gearbox software installed there in my E55 AMG, also a limited slip differential and some other goodies like some updated dampers and I was shocked how many individual mods were possible. This was years ago, now they do even more stuff. The C63 or E63 AMG isn't just a regular model with an AMG badge but Mercedes may have taken this too far with the more regular AMG C450/etc. models.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    That market is not that huge and already extremely competitive, lots of speed limits and traffic in USA...


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    So, which American sports car do you own nberry? Noone? 


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    bluelines:

    So, which American sports car do you own nberry? Noone? 

    None, but what does that have to do with anything?


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    RC:

    I don't know, I still think that US manufacturers are giving up a huge market. Regarding M Gmbh and AMG: I don't know much about M GmbH but as to AMG just sticking AMG badges to Mercedes sedans, I would really recommend a visit at AMG in Affalterbach. I had a new gearbox software installed there in my E55 AMG, also a limited slip differential and some other goodies like some updated dampers and I was shocked how many individual mods were possible. This was years ago, now they do even more stuff. The C63 or E63 AMG isn't just a regular model with an AMG badge but Mercedes may have taken this too far with the more regular AMG C450/etc. models.

    I didn't mean they just stick badges on them, I mean they don't actually make many ground-up sport cars. For example, I don't consider the E63 a sports car. It's a sedan that they modify to be more sporty. The Corvette is a sports car, period. It's not some commuter that get modified.

    I say the only real European sports cars are the AMG GT, Z4, SL, 911, Boxster/Cayman. The rest just strike me as tuned sedans.


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    noone1:
    RC:

    I don't know, I still think that US manufacturers are giving up a huge market. Regarding M Gmbh and AMG: I don't know much about M GmbH but as to AMG just sticking AMG badges to Mercedes sedans, I would really recommend a visit at AMG in Affalterbach. I had a new gearbox software installed there in my E55 AMG, also a limited slip differential and some other goodies like some updated dampers and I was shocked how many individual mods were possible. This was years ago, now they do even more stuff. The C63 or E63 AMG isn't just a regular model with an AMG badge but Mercedes may have taken this too far with the more regular AMG C450/etc. models.

    I didn't mean they just stick badges on them, I mean they don't actually make many ground-up sport cars. For example, I don't consider the E63 a sports car. It's a sedan that they modify to be more sporty. The Corvette is a sports car, period. It's not some commuter that get modified.

    I say the only real European sports cars are the AMG GT, Z4, SL, 911, Boxster/Cayman. The rest just strike me as tuned sedans.

    Then you have clearly NEVER driven the SL Smiley

    And where are Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren plus some very low production brands such as Pagani, Koenigsegg etc ??


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    Those are spots cars, those are exotic cars. Why doesn't America produce exotic cars? Because there are too many badge whores in the world. 

    Meant to say SLK.


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    So the SLK and the 911 you categorize in same class ?


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    No, they're just both sport cars IMO. One is $40K the other is $100K.


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    You are confusing me. I simply do not know where you are going with this. Sorry yes


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    I'm saying the US makes sports cars and EU companies make less sports cars than meets the eye, that's all. Every car in the world can be stripped down and given a bunch of power and performance parts. I don't think those define what a sports car is.

    Mazda Miata is a sports car. E63 AMG is not a sports car.


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    So to give an example, you offer a Japanese car...

    Let us leave it there, I am not sure this kind of arguments will convince me.


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    I always considered Mazda to be owned by Ford until the financial crisis. Ford owned like like 40% of Mazda and had control of it for a very long time. Ford was largely responsible for Mazda's success and why it's still around today.


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    I think you lost all of us, Noone1. This conversation doesn't make any sense.


    --

    997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT 


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    bluelines:

    So, which American sports car do you own nberry? Noone? 

    The twins must keeping you up at night. You're missing the point. US car manufacturers aren't interested in producing high quality high performance sport cars. If they were I am sure many of us would consider buying one. Ford decided to build the GT to enhance its brand. I would wager everyone on this site would buy one if they got an allocation and could afford it.kiss


    --

    "A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    spudgun:

    I think you lost all of us, Noone1. This conversation doesn't make any sense.

    What's hard to get? American manufacturers make sport cars. Europeans just don't buy them for some reason.


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    noone1:
    spudgun:

    I think you lost all of us, Noone1. This conversation doesn't make any sense.

    What's hard to get? American manufacturers make sport cars. Europeans just don't buy them for some reason.

    Americans neither it seems Smiley I don't know a single American RT member with an American sports car. Do you?


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    nberry:
    You're missing the point. US car manufacturers aren't interested in producing high quality high performance sport cars. If they were I am sure many of us would consider buying one. Ford decided to build the GT to enhance its brand. I would wager everyone on this site would buy one if they got an allocation and could afford it.kiss

    Aren't interested? Yes, that is the spirit which built America Smiley 


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    The spirit that built America is profit.indecision


    --

    "A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    With the way Americans designed their roads, drag racing is more their thing, and stop light drag racing is easy to accomplished daily, hence the muscle cars like Mustangs and Camaros and now the Hellcat Demon is the ultimate example of that genre.

    Yes there are exceptions, Corvette and Vipers. but they are the rare birds that actually handle curves.

    European countries mostly are mountainous regions, Curves, mountain twistys are quite normal and hence the designers emphasis more on handling part. 

    For decades, the buying habit stays the same, if someone wants something that's mega on a straight-line drag race, American cars is the thing. When people want something that can handle curves, they buy import cars.

    The cultural difference is just too great. For Americans, 'Let's go racing' means heading to the drag strip on Friday night. For the rest of the world, it means going to a road circuit. Performance metric is also different. They look at 0-60 times first, then 1/4 miles time, then perhaps asking what's the top speed, as that number is a nice fantasy which will never be achieved. But outside of America, the performance metric changed, yes the straight line numbers will be asked too, but circuit lap times plays a much more important role, one can skip all the straight line numbers and just named the Ring time and the performance potential of a car is instantly understood.

    Could Ford/GM/Chrysler engineer something that will be on par with import sports cars? Of course they can. But will they do it? Nope. Their market audience for straight line machines is much bigger, and satisfying that market is cheaper and easier to do. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    Whoopsy:

    With the way Americans designed their roads, drag racing is more their thing, and stop light drag racing is easy to accomplished daily, hence the muscle cars like Mustangs and Camaros and now the Hellcat Demon is the ultimate example of that genre.

    Yes there are exceptions, Corvette and Vipers. but they are the rare birds that actually handle curves.

    European countries mostly are mountainous regions, Curves, mountain twistys are quite normal and hence the designers emphasis more on handling part. 

    For decades, the buying habit stays the same, if someone wants something that's mega on a straight-line drag race, American cars is the thing. When people want something that can handle curves, they buy import cars.

    The cultural difference is just too great. For Americans, 'Let's go racing' means heading to the drag strip on Friday night. For the rest of the world, it means going to a road circuit. Performance metric is also different. They look at 0-60 times first, then 1/4 miles time, then perhaps asking what's the top speed, as that number is a nice fantasy which will never be achieved. But outside of America, the performance metric changed, yes the straight line numbers will be asked too, but circuit lap times plays a much more important role, one can skip all the straight line numbers and just named the Ring time and the performance potential of a car is instantly understood.

    Could Ford/GM/Chrysler engineer something that will be on par with import sports cars? Of course they can. But will they do it? Nope. Their market audience for straight line machines is much bigger, and satisfying that market is cheaper and easier to do. 

     

    +1 What Nick said.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    Carlos from Spain:
    Whoopsy:

    With the way Americans designed their roads, drag racing is more their thing, and stop light drag racing is easy to accomplished daily, hence the muscle cars like Mustangs and Camaros and now the Hellcat Demon is the ultimate example of that genre.

    Yes there are exceptions, Corvette and Vipers. but they are the rare birds that actually handle curves.

    European countries mostly are mountainous regions, Curves, mountain twistys are quite normal and hence the designers emphasis more on handling part. 

    For decades, the buying habit stays the same, if someone wants something that's mega on a straight-line drag race, American cars is the thing. When people want something that can handle curves, they buy import cars.

    The cultural difference is just too great. For Americans, 'Let's go racing' means heading to the drag strip on Friday night. For the rest of the world, it means going to a road circuit. Performance metric is also different. They look at 0-60 times first, then 1/4 miles time, then perhaps asking what's the top speed, as that number is a nice fantasy which will never be achieved. But outside of America, the performance metric changed, yes the straight line numbers will be asked too, but circuit lap times plays a much more important role, one can skip all the straight line numbers and just named the Ring time and the performance potential of a car is instantly understood.

    Could Ford/GM/Chrysler engineer something that will be on par with import sports cars? Of course they can. But will they do it? Nope. Their market audience for straight line machines is much bigger, and satisfying that market is cheaper and easier to do. 

    +1 What Nick said.

    I don't agree but who cares. Given how many European non-dragstrip sports cars that are being sold in America the market must be sufficiently large.

    How many American sports cars are faster than a 911 Turbo in straight line? Very very few. They are significantly cheaper though, but I guess there is a reason for that.

    From a different angle, does talented American engineers fresh out of university join one of the American car brands? Is this were the best go? Nah, I seriously doubt they attract top engineers like Porsche, McLaren, Ferrari, etc.do.


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    Thanks to Ford and Porsche, Ferrari hasn't had an overall win at Le Mans for over 50 years...

    I wonder if they will give it another try?


    --

     

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    Your European magazines just don't test them, but the American companies have lots of similar performing cars.

    CTS-V, Corvette, Mustang GT500, Mustang GT350R, Camaro, Viper (gone)

    Where exactly are they lacking? You think America doesn't have as many sports cars simply because BMW and Mercedes whore their AMG and M badges out on every single model under the Sun.

    http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna-seca-post-1988


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    bluelines:
    noone1:
    spudgun:

    I think you lost all of us, Noone1. This conversation doesn't make any sense.

    What's hard to get? American manufacturers make sport cars. Europeans just don't buy them for some reason.

    Americans neither it seems Smiley I don't know a single American RT member with an American sports car. Do you?

    RT is more or less an exotic car forum. Why would you expect members here to have them? 


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    noone1:

    Your European magazines just don't test them, but the American companies have lots of similar performing cars.

     

    Not true. There are constantly US car reviews in German car magazines, mostly comparisons but sometimes also single reviews, even Supertests (Sport Auto or AutoBILD Sportscars). 



    CTS-V, Corvette, Mustang GT500, Mustang GT350R, Camaro, Viper (gone)

    Where exactly are they lacking? You think America doesn't have as many sports cars simply because BMW and Mercedes whore their AMG and M badges out on every single model under the Sun.

    http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna-seca-post-1988

    I still think that US car companies are missing out on a huge market but maybe I'm wrong.

    Btw: Many car manufacturer suppliers like Delphi, Lear or Johnson Controls are American and their products are often used even by European manufacturers, so I do not see the lack in engineering. Also Tesla is the leading ELV and autonomous car manufacturer in the world and looking at Apple, Google, General Electric and other US companies, I think that Europeans are always a bit too arrogant, probably the reason why they often "wake up" too late. Leadfree fuel...catalytic converters or even microwaves and touch display registers...it took Europe years after these products were already available in the US. Just saying... 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    noone1:
    bluelines:
    noone1:
    spudgun:

    I think you lost all of us, Noone1. This conversation doesn't make any sense.

    What's hard to get? American manufacturers make sport cars. Europeans just don't buy them for some reason.

    Americans neither it seems Smiley I don't know a single American RT member with an American sports car. Do you?

    RT is more or less an exotic car forum. Why would you expect members here to have them? 

    Huh? An exotic car forum? RT has members from all over the map with zero to several cars. Not one American sports car. You find that within expectations? 

    Next excuse please, I am ready for it Smiley

     


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: 2018 Challenger Hellcat 'Demon'

    Zero to several cars...good one. 😂 👍

    Does it count that I owned a US car? 😉 I know you won't believe it but I would have kept it if the maintenance wasn't such a hassle (import car, official Ford dealerships couldn't service it). Lots of (challenging) fun to drive and I miss it but I have to admit that I would never own one as my single sportscar. 

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


     
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