Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Hi guys,

    I've had my 997S for nearly a month now. I have just a few little questions:

    1) I assume it is normal for the headlamps sometimes getting some condensation inside (due to cold weather, rain etc)
    2) When starting the car from stone cold (e.g. if it's been parked overnight in the cold) do you notice that for the first minute or so, the car of course revs slightly higher than normal tick over (which is perfectly normal) but it also leaps forward eagerly with the slightest reduction in clutch pedal pressure?
    3) When changing gears, does your rpm counter show the car's revs go up maybe 200rpms for a split second until the gear change is over?

    The Service Manager at my local dealership says these are all perfectly normal.

    He says (1) is due to the original headlamp design. (2) is just because the engine management system keeps the fuel/air mix artificially higher when the engine is really cold just for a minute or so which means that the reduction in clutch has a proportionally greater effect on how much the car moves forward. (3) is normal too he says because the engine management system realises that the revs might fall so it keeps them up to help ensure a smoother gear change and to protect the engine from unnecessary wear.

    I have paraphrased what he said. Hope I haven't misquoted him.

    BTW he sat in my -20mm sports suspension car today. He thought the suspension set up was great.

    I asked him about the PSE modification. He said it was perfectly safe (NB just tape up both ends!) and that it would not void the warranty. He only warned that the flap will no longer move if the modification is done and that, over time, if permanently in one position, it is possible that the flap may remain stuck in one position if I ever tried to undo the PSE modification. I suppose that means that if one does the mod, one could consider from time to time just reconnecting it briefly to stop this happening and to keep the flap operating fine.

    I did the vacuum hose disconnection mod within the first week of getting the car and I just love the sound.

    Anyhow, it seems to me like everything is running just fine so far but any input/advice from the knowledgeable rennteamers out there would be appreciated! Thanks!

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    He only warned that the flap will no longer move if the modification is done and that, over time, if permanently in one position, it is possible that the flap may remain stuck in one position if I ever tried to undo the PSE modification. I suppose that means that if one does the mod, one could consider from time to time just reconnecting it briefly to stop this happening and to keep the flap operating fine.



    Every couple of months I put the hack back to standard and it does sound a bit rough at first as a result. A long motorway trip is a good window to do this in.

    After 5 mins this goes away and you realize just how quiet the normal setting is compared to the hack. At the end of the day I always put the hack back on again.

    As for your other 'issues' I would say they were pretty normal, although I hadn't really noticed any of them until you pointed them out!

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Just a guess on my part... . But when I see condensation in headlights, or tail lights or signal lights I just assume there's something wrong.

    I mean if you do the same thing (drive when wet, then park in cold) over and over condensation will accumulate and never go away.

    There's got to be some gasket or seal which is messed up.

    Because water damages electronics and electrical connections, there's no good reason for mfgrs to produce a non-sealed, non-moisture proof unit.

    Walk around your dealer's lot and see if other Porsches have condensation.

    Ask them to remove your light (very easy) and show you where the unit is designed to let moisture in. Do not accept ANY BS from them, you want to *see* the "crack" that allows moisture in. Tell them to show you any gasketing too. If there's gasketing it should be working.

    Mine never have had any condensation, even during cold and wet seasons.

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    The other day, I noticed there was some condensation in my LED turn signal units on my Turbo. It went away eventually but that made me wonder whether it was "normal" for that to happen. BTW, it happened in both turn signals. Hasn't happened to my headlights yet but I recall talking to service about condensation in headlights for my old M5 and they told me it was "normal" to have a certain amount of condensation which would be "dried" off by the heat of the lamps. Seemed a bit odd to me. I'll have to ask about the condensation in my turn signal sometime.

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    they told me it was "normal" to have a certain amount of condensation which would be "dried" off by the heat of the lamps. Seemed a bit odd to me. I'll have to ask about the condensation in my turn signal sometime.



    From a boat ownership standpoint if you have any condensation in your lights, you're screwed. The light is doomed to fail.

    Why should cars be different? I mean our headlights are most likely DESIGNED to be moistureproof.


    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    The condensation is a very bad sign. I've noticed a few little things wrong with my car too. A rat ate some wires in the engine compartment, and there is a touch of paint overspray, or something down on the center radiator vent (no radiator). They put the passenger seatbelt strap on backwards. I'm not happy about any of this, and very surprised about it too.

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Condensation is normal. I've had it from day one and I've had my car for two years now.

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Would be nice to have the exploded diagram for the headlight assembly.

    This would help determine if the unit was designed to be moistureproof.

    Anybody have the diagram?

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Quote:
    Ed J said:
    Condensation is normal. I've had it from day one and I've had my car for two years now.


    So how much condensation is normal? Would a pint of water be to much? My thought is there should be a very small hole at the top of the housing, out of the weather, to let condensation out when the light is on. Constant exposure to condensation is not a good thing and I would personally set about to correct it.

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Zero water is normal. I have had this problem in one other car, but it was just in one light. It will result in the slow, but sure corrosion of the elements in the light, unless they are sealed, then it will do nothing! Water usually causes corrosion in any metal that contains any iron, and many other metals.

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Would be nice to have the exploded diagram for the headlight assembly.

    This would help determine if the unit was designed to be moistureproof.

    Anybody have the diagram?



    You mean something like this?

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    I phoned my local Porsche centre about this again this morning. The Service Advisor there stated categorically that 'misting or light condensation' is totally normal. He explained that there are ventilation holes in the headlamps through which the water enters. It is designed this way. They are plastic headlamps which are not designed to be airtight or watertight.

    He said that this condensation evaporates by itself but that if there is any left when the headlamps are operated then the heat from the headlights speeds up the evaporation process anyway so the misting/condensation should disappear even more quickly.

    He said that the reason why people in other countries may not experience this condensation is simply because the temperature in their country is warm enough so that the condensation doesn't form in the first place or if it does, it evaporates away instantly. I think this is the most logical explanation why rennteamers in warmer countries have never noticed this condensation. I think the only way they could experience it (despite the warmer air temperature which would normally evaporate away any condensation) is if they have near to 100% relative humidity i.e. the air is already so saturated with water that the condensation cannot evaporate away anymore.

    He did add that if there is a build up of a quantity of water in the headlamp (i.e. like filling up a container) then this was not normal. That issue should be looked into by a dealer.

    However, misting or light condensation on the inside surface of the headlamp is totally normal.

    He also said that numerous people have been calling them asking them these exact questions and that this has been the advice they have been consistently giving.

    I also asked him whether there is any risk of corrosion etc of any of the metal parts inside the headlamp if this condensation remains in there. He said no.

    He finally said that the dealership checks the operation of the headlamps as part of the routine service anyway and they also check that the ventilation holes are unobstructed.

    He said not to worry about this at all. It's normal. Hope this puts people's minds at rest! It did mine.

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:


    He said not to worry about this at all. It's normal. Hope this puts people's minds at rest! It did mine.



    Thanks for the report.

    I dunno if it places my mind at rest. Porsche always relies on the dealers to verbally dispense these reassurances. Ask yourself: do you really *trust* your dealer? There's never a response directly from Porsche.

    For example, my engine exhaust pipes? One side gets blacker/ sootier than the other. Only thing I got from internet boards and my dealer is "don't worry about it." Of all the people experiencing this problem, none has an actual explanation from Porsche.

    IOW, maybe a run of headlights from a specific supplier are are quasi-defective (not up to design standard), but Porsche deems them to be "okay" or not worth changing out in a recall.

    I got a feeling that's what they're doing with the engines with uneven soot; though not prefferred, Porsche tolerates them. Explaning WHY the are not preferred might lead some owners to follow the logic of why the engine should be considered defective and then take action to demand they be replaced.

    BTW easy_rider911, by following this logic, a huge number of cars in your area sharing your weather and parking conditions should have condensation in their lights. It
    would make sense to assume all headlights in all newer cars were designed with the same "moisture handling" principles in mind.




    (Sorry, bad mood...,too much last night... .)

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Quote:
    Matt C said:
    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Would be nice to have the exploded diagram for the headlight assembly.

    This would help determine if the unit was designed to be moistureproof.

    Anybody have the diagram?



    You mean something like this?



    Thanks Matt C

    Doesn't solve the moisture problem but DOES explain how to steal the lights. It appears all you need is a metal ruler.

    Hints strongly at how to remove the light and see for yourself if it is defective or some gasketing is out of place.


    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Quote:
    MMD said:There's never a response directly from Porsche.



    This raises another interesting issue: 'Directly from Porsche'?

    The dealer I spoke to this morning was Porsche Centre East London. It's an authorised Porsche dealer BUT it is owned by Lancaster PLC which has dealerships for Mercedes Benz, Jaguar, Porsche and various other premium marques etc etc.

    In the UK, there are 33 authorised Porsche dealers BUT only 5 of them are owned by Porsche Cars Great Britain Ltd. They are Reading (where PCGB is based in the UK), West London, Mayfair, Hatfield and Guildford. The other 28 dealers are all franchised dealers like Porsche Centre East London etc.

    I'm going to try to find out if Porsche Cars GB Ltd (the official importer of Porsche cars into the UK) is a wholly owned subsidiary of Porsche AG? Then, if I ever went to Porsche West London (for example) for advice, I would know that I am getting advice indirectly from Porsche itself and not just from a franchised dealer.

    Lemme check...

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Here we go:

    http://www.porsche.com/uk/aboutporsche/porschecarsgreatbritain/

    "Porsche Cars Great Britain Limited is the sole UK and Ireland importer of Porsche cars and is wholly owned by Porsche AG in Stuttgart."

    PCGB owns the 5 dealerships I listed previously.

    I once went to Porsche Centre West London. It looked like the largest dealership I have ever seen in the UK. (Predictably, the largest dealership I have ever seen anywhere is Porsche Zentrum Stuttgart).

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    I live in the UK, my car lives outside and I get the misting on the headlights and also on the side/fog lights as well. I checked with OPC and got the same info as easy-rider. Car is now 14mths old and haven't had a problem

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    From a boat ownership standpoint if you have any condensation in your lights, you're screwed. The light is doomed to fail.

    Why should cars be different? I mean our headlights are most likely DESIGNED to be moistureproof.




    Your boat ownership experience is probably based on "old school" lights using chrome plated pressed steel light reflectors, which would eventually rust in the presence of condensation, especially if the air vents became blocked.
    Automotive reflectors are now made of metallised plastics, which will not rust.

    To be moistureproof, light units would also have to be airtight. They are not because the bulbs have to be replaceable, and also provision has to be made for expansion and contraction of the air in the enclosed volume during heating up and cooling down of the light unit. The vents are at the lowest point of the light, so that any water accumulated due to condensation is "pushed" out by the expanding air when the light unit heats up after being switched on.

    You really should give the suppliers of parts to the auto industry a little more credit for using intelligence and accumulating know-how in the course of their work.

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    I once went to Porsche Centre West London. It looked like the largest dealership I have ever seen in the UK. (Predictably, the largest dealership I have ever seen anywhere is Porsche Zentrum Stuttgart).



    Uh? Porsche West London is tiny! It's where I bought my car.

    However, I have since relocated and my local is now OPC Reading. Now THAT'S big given it has Porsche GB buildings attached onto it. The storage car park at the back is where every Porsche that comes into the country goes through I believe. And the amazing workshop out back (with a few Carrera GTs and old classics like the 959 parked in it). Awesome.

    I love walking around the storage area at the back (you need to get friendly with the service/sales guys to escort you round though). If you are buying a car in the UK and are stuck for a choice on colour then that's the place to go to see pretty much all variants in the flesh! Well worth a visit even if your not (especially to look at all the new GT3's and RS's)

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Alex, I said that PC W London is the largest dealership I HAVE EVER SEEN in the UK. In physical terms, I am sure you are right: there are no doubt larger dealerships (in terms of physical size) outside London where land is cheaper.

    I should have explained that, by 'larger' I meant in terms of sales numbers. Apparently PC W London sells more cars than any other dealer in the UK.

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    I seeeeee. As I am a prime example of another OPC West London sale, I can't argue

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Quote:
    fritz said:

    You really should give the suppliers of parts to the auto industry a little more credit for using intelligence and accumulating know-how in the course of their work.



    NAH, I enjoy presenting challenging evidence; especially to Porsche who claim "Excellence" and "No Substitute."

    We have had radar and other stuff on our boats for years, there's always a teeny tiny drain vent of about 1/16 inches in diameter. I have seen my share of moisture-related failures. As you say, some of these exterior components NEED a tiny air vent. But the only time I have seen a noticeable amount (a huge amount BTW) of condensation inside them has been when they have failed due to a broken gasket, or crack in the case or other similar failure.

    Again, if this were acceptable, and was the result of local climate weather and parking conditions, easyrider911 should see a very high number of condensation-ridden headlights in his neighborhood.


    FWIW... .

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Hi guys,

    I've had my 997S for nearly a month now. I have just a few little questions:

    1) I assume it is normal for the headlamps sometimes getting some condensation inside (due to cold weather, rain etc)
    2) When starting the car from stone cold (e.g. if it's been parked overnight in the cold) do you notice that for the first minute or so, the car of course revs slightly higher than normal tick over (which is perfectly normal) but it also leaps forward eagerly with the slightest reduction in clutch pedal pressure?
    3) When changing gears, does your rpm counter show the car's revs go up maybe 200rpms for a split second until the gear change is over?




    Easy - I honestly don't find any of the above applies to my car's characteristics!

    As far as revs increasing when changing gear - I can't see that happening unless you leave your foot on the throttle when depressing the clutch.

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Actually my foot is nowhere near the throttle when using the clutch. I think this comes down to the revs we change gear at. If I changed gear at higher revs, then the car wouldn't feel the need to add 200rpm while changing gear. I've been told all three things are perfectly normal.

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    I saw 'The Holiday' last night at the cinema.

    Cameron Diaz drives a red Mini Cooper while she is in England. At one point, you can clearly see the condensation which has formed in the headlamps.

    By the way, why does Cameron Diaz's two-timing ex-boyfriend drive a 997S at the start of this film?

    Can you picture that? I accompany my wife at a chick flick and I'm focussing on the cars in the movie. Simply no hope for me. Or maybe it shows how bored I was!

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Can you picture that? I accompany my wife at a chick flick and I'm focussing on the cars in the movie. Simply no hope for me. Or maybe it shows how bored I was!


    Better focusing on the beautiful cars than the beautiful women as far as your other-half is concerned!

    Re: New owner questions: any input welcome!

    My car (a MY07 Boxster) does the last 2 of those things so I assume it's a Porsche characteristic rather than anything to worry about.

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA 1/19/18 10:13 PM
    throt
    263655 1687
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 1/24/18 4:49 AM
    Targa Tim
    260593 4025
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 1/24/18 2:04 AM
    Grant
    89759 1402
    Porsche Sticky 992 (Next 911 generation 2019/2020) 1/12/18 7:11 PM
    the-missile
    67527 673
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Mission E - the future of Porsche? 1/3/18 8:32 PM
    CGX car nut
    39875 468
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo S Exclusive Series (2017) 11/28/17 12:15 AM
    EnglishManInNY
    23926 332
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche Carrera T 12/1/17 7:24 PM
    crayphile
    13729 243
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 718 GTS models (Oct. 2017) 10/24/17 12:19 PM
    amazon
    7291 19
    Porsche 918 latest news Thread Closed 11/6/17 10:43 AM
    RCA
    548417 5574
    Porsche 991 GT3 RS 1/9/18 1:43 PM
    Kimi
    456625 5816
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S 10/26/17 1:33 PM
    NSXER
    446383 4239
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 2016 Porsche Carrera 911 [991.2] Facelift 3/24/17 12:49 PM
    RCA
    254981 1382
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 1/4/18 9:14 PM
    wurlie
    247604 2558
    Porsche 997 GT3 RS 4.0 3/15/17 10:40 PM
    noone1
     
     
     
     
     
    231293 737
    Porsche Cayman GT4 12/30/17 11:07 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    213276 2482
    Porsche 991 GT2 RS (2017) - Rumors, speculations and gossip Thread Closed 7/3/17 2:04 PM
    RCA
    175537 1699
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 11/13/17 2:32 AM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    165152 874
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 Turbo and Turbo S 1/23/18 12:27 AM
    RCA
    164506 1074
    Ferrari 488 GTB/GTS 1/24/18 9:53 AM
    RCA
    141394 1234
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 1/24/18 2:08 AM
    Grant
    139016 2858
    Porsche 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed 3/7/17 11:47 AM
    RCA
    125036 1651
    Porsche Boxster Spyder (981) 12/29/17 8:31 AM
    dreamcar
    110809 692
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 1/6/18 10:41 PM
    Wonderbar
    108111 1284
    Others Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016 model) - Review (updated Feb 13th 2017) 1/18/18 11:38 AM
    RCA
    105677 1869
    Ferrari Ferrari F12 Berlinetta / 599 GTO Successor 12/5/17 3:29 PM
    RCA
    87271 765
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 718 Boxster (2016) 10/20/17 11:17 AM
    DaveGordon
    81722 732
    Others VW caught cheating emissions tests 7/10/17 2:36 PM
    RCA
    81485 861
    Porsche 991 GTS 4/3/17 4:27 PM
    bluelines
    68500 247
    Porsche OFFICIAL: Cayenne (958) Facelift 2014 3/2/17 4:22 PM
    RCA
    67179 163
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 (facelift) Carrera 4 and Carrera 4S 3/30/17 7:33 PM
    Carlos from SpainM
    60368 131
    370 items found, displaying 1 to 30.