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    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Oh boy...right now I am thinking about getting a black exterior...again. mail


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    It might be dark blue metallic also, though hard to tell. yes


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    LOL, RC, I get your drift.
    I think if I were in the market, I would choose a black turbo S. You're right when you say it hides a lot of those design features, but to me, it also hides those ugly features:
    The "air blade" in the front intake is an aesthetic disaster if you ask me, same for the black insert in the side inlet, it takes the eye away from the real shape of the inlet. Same goes for the air outlets in the rear side bumper, which don't match the rest of the car's lines, and of course those ugly exhaust tips. I know that the official pics seem to emphasize these features over the top, and when you see the car in real life, you see the bigger picture. But still, I would like to de-emphasize these features rather than to make them stick out.

    I still remember the first time I saw an all black 996 turbo at the dealer's when it was just released.... it stared at me from one side of the showroom to the other, and it resembled a black panther lying in hide, ready for the kill... I absolutely loved it! :-D


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Porsche is loosing its "value" aspect in the US. All their models (except GT3) are now overpriced compared to the competition. The Cayenne will get trounced by the RR sport, the Panamera is 20% more than the Cayenne (without even mentioning S7, S8 and the likes, which are not that much worse drive feel, can have 5 seats and a real trunk) and the 911 has now gone up one price category (ie now too close to Maserati and V8 Aston or even used Californias, or MP4 for the TT models). I have owned many Porsche in the past, but I don't see any in my medium term future.

    Depreciation on all the new models will be like never seen before as the used market does not care where the initial prices were.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

     Your theory doesn't seem to be supported by the facts. USA: 29.9% increase in units sold compared to the previous year in the first 6 months. 

    Unless, they are importing cars that remain unsold Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:

    Oh boy...right now I am thinking about getting a black exterior...again. mail

    Get black/black.  You won't be disappointed and you won't be second guessing yourself, afterwards.


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Mates, are there any chance that Porsche will improve performance of Turbo S in a quiet manner? I hope yes. But is thT possible? To install more agressive program?


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I do not belive so.
    560ps is 560ps after all.
    10.3s is 0-200km/h official number and you want see anything better then 9.6s in German car press.

    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I have a nauseating feeling that Porsche has boxed itself in.

    Looks to me like they would love to make the new Turbo a real benchmark as in the past but are held back by some unwritten or unofficial rule not to get too  close to the vaunted 918.

    All would be good if they did not screw up royally that car (IMO) by making it a stupid,no one asked for, hybrid, burdened by totally unnecessary battery and hardware.

    All that junk limits the performance and because of it, the 991TT and TTS are paying the price.

    I am still keeping my order though,as daily driver in Chicago climate only an FF can compete,higher depreciating,more "in your face",more expensive (about $100k) and definitely slower. 

    I'm not excited though.......


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Black is looking gooooood!  Is that bassalt black, though?  I think I'd prefer flat good old regular black.

    I'd like to get a natural leather black and maybe go for yellow deviated stitching and yellow seat belts.  Or maybe just yellow seat belts.  Enough to match the PCCBs....  Hmm.

    Can you get black leather as LTS in natural leather?  If yes, how much more does that cost and how much longer to ship?


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    absent:

    I have a nauseating feeling that Porsche has boxed itself in.

    Looks to me like they would love to make the new Turbo a real benchmark as in the past but are held back by some unwritten or unofficial rule not to get too  close to the vaunted 918.

    All would be good if they did not screw up royally that car (IMO) by making it a stupid,no one asked for, hybrid, burdened by totally unnecessary battery and hardware.

    All that junk limits the performance and because of it, the 991TT and TTS are paying the price.

    I am still keeping my order though,as daily driver in Chicago climate only an FF can compete,higher depreciating,more "in your face",more expensive (about $100k) and definitely slower. 

    I'm not excited though.......

     

    Haha, Porsche got boxed in by Piech, not the 918. When VW took control of Porsche, that's the end. Piech is not going to cannibalized R8, Gallardo, Aventador and probably even the Veyron's sales by making a super duper 911 Turbo S. If a 911 Turbo S is THAT good at 200k, who would pay 400k for a Aventador? 

    Had Porsche stayed independent, there is no doubt the next 911 Turbo S will be a lot faster, there is no corporate order to keep the performance in check.

    Had the 918 been a generic sports car with only a powerful motor, what's the point? They already made one before, the Carrera GT. 

    They went a different direction for the 918 just so they can challenge their engineers, and they came out with a damn good car. All the technologies that went into the 918 will eventually goes into the regular production cars, just like the 959 before. 

    Had Porsche made a 918 with conventional propulsion, how much can they charge for one? The price floor had been set by the Carrera GT at around 300k, is 300k expensive enough to be a halo car? No. If they charge more, say 450k, then the question becomes what's so special about it for it to cost 50% more than the Carrera GT? And it will be nothing special either, it will just be another light weight hypercar that's not tech intensive, that means cheap to build and people will see right through the pricing as noting more than a money grab. WIth the current Porsche technology, it will be extremely easy for them to build a hyper car that will go 240mph, but where is the challenge for their engineers?

    I bought a 918 because of the technology. Had it been powered conventionally, I would have bought a Carrera GT instead and saved myself a lot of money, and I already had a Carrera GT lined up to buy. 

    you should thank me for paying the R&D on the technology that will go into your next Porsche.

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Thank you :)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    "Had Porsche stayed independent"... you make it should like they had a choice.  Piech bailed them out...


    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    nberry:

     What is happening is Porsche is attracting new customers with models like the Boxster, Cayman, Cayenne and Panamera.

    .. and with the Carrera . I have a very good friend who drives a Cayenne.  He is 41 years old, sporty. When he brings at the service he used to get a Carrera 997 and always told me how he could never buy such an uncomfortable car . The other day , he was given a 991 Carrera S and called me to say : Waow , finally Porsche has made a 911 that is fantastic to drive and that feels comfortable ! 

    To me, this describes well what has happened with the direction the 991 has taken .


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Budster:

    "Had Porsche stayed independent"... you make it should like they had a choice.  Piech bailed them out...

     

    I am not so sure about the 'bailed' part. He saw a chance to complete control of Porsche the car maker and he took it.

    Porsche had liquidity problem at the end of the ambitious plan to takeover VW, they are probably one bank loan away from completion but they ran into the financial crisis. Why didn't the banks lend them that last bit? Piech is a powerful man with the VW empire, maybe more so than the pure blood Porsche clan, he is also a very smart man who could see what's coming, could he have 'suggested' to bankers he deal with that he 'dislike' lending Porsche more money? Knowing without the extra cash Porsche would be in trouble and the VW group could swoop in and grab Porsche? It also helps that Piech had good connections with politicians to prevent the 'VW Law' from being abolished. 

    With the purchase of Porsche, it's his victory over the pure blood Porsche clan, a slap or 2 on their faces, pretty sure he enjoys that. 

    It's quite well known that the Piech's and the Porsche's are not in good terms, especially when Ferdinand Piech had an affair with his cousin's wife. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    To my knowledge, Porsche SE holds over 51% of the VW common stock, so Piech and the Porsche family actually own VW. I don't know why this didn't make the headlines in newspapers, maybe because even if they own more than 50% of Volkswagen, they still don't control it (there is a special "VW law" which allows the government to veto many decisions). Bottom line is: Piech and the Porsche family get along just fine now, so don't underestimate them.

    Speaking of the 997 and 991: Yes, the 991 is a bit more comfortable than the 997 but I don't see such a drastic difference between both. It really depends on the options the car is equipped with, the 20mm chassis surely won't feel too comfortable, even on the 991. If someone badly wants a 911 but cannot decide between the 997 and 991, I would probably choose a slightly used 997 Carrera GTS instead of a new 991 Carrera or Carrera S. Performance is similar, if not quite the same (991 CS is faster in real life, despite the lower hp figure on paper) and one can save a ton of money since slightly used 997 Carrera GTS go for under 95k EUR right now, even much less (depending on color and tranny). Used 991 also don't seem to hold their value too well, so this could be also an interesting alternative for those who want the latest 911.

    Speaking of 991 Turbo S and 918 performance: I think we are missing something important here, the rumored "960". If the rumors are true and there won't be a GT2 or GT2 RS anymore, this means that Porsche has decided to put a new mid engined sports car in the 250-300k EUR range on the market. So from this point of view, this car would need to be faster than the 991 Turbo S but not as fast as the 918. Here lies the real problem I'm afraid. Basically, a "960" would be considered a MP4-12C competitor, having to do 0-100 kph in 3 seconds flat and 0-200 kph in under 10 seconds (9 seconds would be OK since the 918 does 0-200 kph under 8 seconds).

    If the "960" reason for not giving the 991 Turbo S more power/performance is true, I think Porsche makes a logical mistake here. First, the 991 Turbo S is a 911, not a mid engined car. Second, the "960" would cost 250k EUR and more, it would keep a price and prestige distance to the 991 Turbo S. Third, the "960" would be a two seater only (very likely) and last but not least, it would look similar to the 918 Spyder, meaning it would be flashier than the 991 Turbo S. Different car for a different audience in my opinion. So it wouldn't really hurt the "960" if the 0-100 kph time would be the same as on the 991 Turbo S and if from 0-200 kph, the "960" would be only 0.5 second faster than the 991 Turbo S. So basically, the "960" could be "allowed" to do 0-200 kph in let's say 9 seconds and the 991 Turbo S in 9.5 seconds. Since the 991 Turbo S has a Vmax of 318 kph (or maybe 320 after a "correction") only, the 960 could run let's say 325 or 330 kph to satisfy buyers. Many people look at the Vmax anyway... Smiley

    By putting the product 991 Turbo S under such (unnecessary) pressure from the competition, Porsche not only will loose customers to the competition (and not to the "960" because many potential 911 Turbo customers don't want a flashy car and they also need the backseats) but they will also destroy the 911 Turbo legend. Porsche needs to understand that unlike the Cayenne or Panamera, the 911 is all about legend and tradition. This is why I also don't understand why they don't celebrate 50 years 911 in a different (much more enthusiastic) way and why they don't offer a monster performance 911 Turbo S...as the benchmark (their own words).

    I guess Porsche marketing has a lot to do with that decision but if a Porsche customer and diehard Porsche fan like me gets a 991 Turbo S because he has to and there is no alternative for him, not because he badly wants the car, this should give them a little bit food for thought. I am in a very special position (region where I live, neighbors, job, etc.) but many potential 911 Turbo S customers aren't. They can choose a MP4-12C instead for example and I'm afraid some already did. angry

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:
    pjd:

    Dealer car?  

    1373284426118991 T_2.jpg

    http://www.autogespot.co.uk/porsche-991-turbo/2013/07/07#img1




    Looks like a Weissach 991 Turbo.

    There are no dealer cars yet, the "official" introduction is at the IAA and there won't be any dealer launch cars in Germany as far as I heard, only customer orders. First customer cars should appear at dealers end of September, not sure if the previous customer car embargo date of Oct. 5th is still valid.

    I thought the "official" introduction have been in Moscow. No? Smiley


    --


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    RC:

    If the "960" reason for not giving the 991 Turbo S more power/performance is true, I think Porsche makes a logical mistake here. First, the 991 Turbo S is a 911, not a mid engined car. Second, the "960" would cost 250k EUR and more, it would keep a price and prestige distance to the 991 Turbo S. Third, the "960" would be a two seater only (very likely) and last but not least, it would look similar to the 918 Spyder, meaning it would be flashier than the 991 Turbo S. Different car for a different audience in my opinion. So it wouldn't really hurt the "960" if the 0-100 kph time would be the same as on the 991 Turbo S and if from 0-200 kph, the "960" would be only 0.5 second faster than the 991 Turbo S. So basically, the "960" could be "allowed" to do 0-200 kph in let's say 9 seconds and the 991 Turbo S in 9.5 seconds. 

    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    I'm afraid you're right. They seem to be pushing the 911 turbo/gt2 down under pressure of the future 960, where to me, it would make much more sense to push the 960 more into the territory of the 918...  

    IMHO, the 911 should be the flagship line, with every now and then something exceptionally like the CGT, the GT1 or the 918. Positioning the 960 beside and slightly below those supersportscars would make much more sense to me than to downgrade the top of the line 911 and position the 960 in the spot of the old GT2.


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    No, the introduction in Moscow was the world premiere in connection with the 50 years Porsche 911 celebration, not the press event (which is rumored to happen end of August), shortly before the IAA.

    There won't be dealer launch cars as far as I heard and no 991 Turbo S will make it to dealers before end of September. The Turbo seems to come in November, which is another strange thing.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Looking good on this pics.... 

    1373394109966991 Turbo S_16.jpg1373394118411991 Turbo S_17.jpg991 Turbo S_18.jpg991 Turbo S_19.jpg

    With this wheels would look even better!!

    991_260.jpg


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Wasn't the GT2 recently spotted during testing on the "ring" last week?


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    was a GT3RS


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Gotcha


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I would be very surprised if they cancel the GT2 and GT2 RS.  When is the last time Porsche removed 911 models (rather than trying to find a tiny gap in price, performance, roofline, or luxury among existing models to fill with a new variant)?


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    I wouldn't bother trying to figure out where cars come in based on performance. The performance has been squished so closely together now that it is about to become almost entirely irrelevant. People buy the more expensive cars because they look the part. Even if the 991 TTS blew the doors off the Aventador, no one would care. Aventador looks nothing like a 911. If I have $400K for an Aventador, I'm buying it. Doesn't matter if the 991 is $200K and faster because the Aventador is 10000000x cooler looking and unique.

    There really isn't much overlap in VW when it comes to high performance. Sure, cars may have similar performance, but they all look completely different and appeal to different people, and a lot of the people who own the very expensive ones also buy the cheaper ones too. The average Aventador owner probably owns other exotics as well, regardless of where they fit in the price/performance race.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    surpriseJust read the Turbo S article in the new Christophorus featuring Walter Rohrl.  Takes some degree of writing talent to communicate absolutely no information beyond the listed spec sheet on the car!!broken heart


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Funny thing is I have been driving very "slow" cars extensively these past days (a California and a 4.3 Vantage V8). And they never felt slow but provided great driving pleasure...


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    That front looks good . So much better then the Carrera .  Just maybe too much ' plastic look'   with these ' aero options' for such an expensive car ?

     


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    That coupe looks very elegant in white.


    Re: OFFICIAL: 991 Turbo and Turbo S

    Grant:

    I would be very surprised if they cancel the GT2 and GT2 RS.  When is the last time Porsche removed 911 models (rather than trying to find a tiny gap in price, performance, roofline, or luxury among existing models to fill with a new variant)?

    My guess is that Porsche would only cancel the GT2 and GT2 RS if they have something to "replace" them, like the "960" for example. I don't know if there would be a large enough market for a GT2/GT2RS and the 960 at the same time. Actually, I doubt it. This is why I think that upgrading the Turbo S to being the top of the 911 family  and offering a mid engined "960" in the 250k price range at the same time would be the best strategy for Porsche. Just my personal opinion though... Porsche could even offer the "960" for a 220k EUR base price with unlimited options to add, pushing the price tag close to 300k. I would do that. Smiley A GT2/GT2RS wouldn't make sense anymore, especially since there is no racing series to actually make use of these cars for whatever reason (homologation, etc.).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


     
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