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    Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    I was just reading about PDK being available by end of the year (Excellence magazine, auguest, p. 100) and a mention of the powerkit for 520hp.

    Any guesses on how long for these, especially the S model and powerkit? Would it be worth waiting for 1year? 2years? What's everyone's take on this?

    I'm somewhat highish on the waitlist so it may not be an issue for me, but in case my number comes up sooner than expected I'm hoping to have decided whether to wait longer or not.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Funny, one dealer even told a customer that the powerkit will be available starting with September.
    I doubt that the powerkit will be available for delivery end of this year. As far as we heard, the powerkit is ready to got but I suppose there is no need for Porsche to rush things since the order books seem to be full until the next model year. I doubt that the powerkit is going to be available for delivery earlier than spring 2007. Even worse, I think that the powerkit will be introduced starting with the MY 2008 (starting summer 2007), maybe just in the middle of it and not at the beginning.

    Powerkit rumored power figure is 510 HP right now. The 520 HP figure seem to be the 997 GT2 power figure.

    There is also a rumor that the powerkit requires a new gearbox and it may include some more hardware changes.
    Another rumor also indicates the absence of the overboost function with the powerkit, meaning: the advantage of the powerkit will be mainly in the upper rev range.

    Regarding PDK, there have been already many posts. Same thing here...very likely NOT this MY, maybe next MY and highly likely for MY 2009.

    Hope this helps.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    What's the point of a 510hp powerkit w/o the boost function? That seems like a waste of money to me since the basic engine will get to the same horsepower with the overboost button!

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    997turbocab said:
    What's the point of a 510hp powerkit w/o the boost function? That seems like a waste of money to me since the basic engine will get to the same horsepower with the overboost button!



    No, it doesn't. I'm not sure you understood the overboost.

    The overboost delivers more power in the mid rev range only, meaning (just a raw example without accuracy): if you have 400 HP at 4000 rpm without overboost, you have aprox. 440 HP WITH overboost. The maximum power figure is always 480 HP.

    Translated: the 997 Turbo with powerkit will be faster because the software mapping is different and although it doesn't have an overboost, it may deliver the same power or even more in the mid rev range like the overboost operated 997 Turbo without powerkit.

    Confusing, isn't it?!

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:


    Confusing, isn't it?!



    But highly profitable!

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    crayphile said:
    But highly profitable!




    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    997turbocab said:
    What's the point of a 510hp powerkit w/o the boost function? That seems like a waste of money to me since the basic engine will get to the same horsepower with the overboost button!



    No, it doesn't. I'm not sure you understood the overboost.

    The overboost delivers more power in the mid rev range only, meaning (just a raw example without accuracy): if you have 400 HP at 4000 rpm without overboost, you have aprox. 440 HP WITH overboost. The maximum power figure is always 480 HP.

    Translated: the 997 Turbo with powerkit will be faster because the software mapping is different and although it doesn't have an overboost, it may deliver the same power or even more in the mid rev range like the overboost operated 997 Turbo without powerkit.

    Confusing, isn't it?!



    Does it mean that Sport Chrono Plus won't be needed?

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    you will still need it for the throttle response and the psm threshold...

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    997turbocab said:
    What's the point of a 510hp powerkit w/o the boost function? That seems like a waste of money to me since the basic engine will get to the same horsepower with the overboost button!



    No, it doesn't. I'm not sure you understood the overboost.

    The overboost delivers more power in the mid rev range only, meaning (just a raw example without accuracy): if you have 400 HP at 4000 rpm without overboost, you have aprox. 440 HP WITH overboost. The maximum power figure is always 480 HP.

    Translated: the 997 Turbo with powerkit will be faster because the software mapping is different and although it doesn't have an overboost, it may deliver the same power or even more in the mid rev range like the overboost operated 997 Turbo without powerkit.

    Confusing, isn't it?!



    So, RC, if your car has constant-on overboost, does it make more power in the upper rev-range or does it shut off after 5000 rpm?

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Well crap, how about powerkit + overboost. Why not offer that? Oh, I guess that's because they call it a GT2 and charge another $25K.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    997turbocab said:
    What's the point of a 510hp powerkit w/o the boost function? That seems like a waste of money to me since the basic engine will get to the same horsepower with the overboost button!



    No, it doesn't. I'm not sure you understood the overboost.

    The overboost delivers more power in the mid rev range only, meaning (just a raw example without accuracy): if you have 400 HP at 4000 rpm without overboost, you have aprox. 440 HP WITH overboost. The maximum power figure is always 480 HP.

    Translated: the 997 Turbo with powerkit will be faster because the software mapping is different and although it doesn't have an overboost, it may deliver the same power or even more in the mid rev range like the overboost operated 997 Turbo without powerkit.

    Confusing, isn't it?!



    So, RC, if your car has constant-on overboost, does it make more power in the upper rev-range or does it shut off after 5000 rpm?



    This is the bit which is also confusing me. If the overboost works for 10 seconds (as advertised) and one floors the throttle in 3rd gear at 4000rpm, 10s later you will be way past 7000rpm, so did you get overboost all the way up the rev range ? If yes then you WILL be getting more than the 480hp at peak.
    RC, sounds like maybe you haven't fully understood the overboost function

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    RC, sounds like maybe you haven't fully understood the overboost function



    Overboost is not supposed to function beyond 5000rpm, I believe. Therefore peak BHP does not change.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    DRA said:
    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    RC, sounds like maybe you haven't fully understood the overboost function



    Overboost is not supposed to function beyond 5000rpm, I believe. Therefore peak BHP does not change.



    Actually, according to the dyno sheets, over boost allows for increased torque from 2000-4000 rpms. Under normal boost conditions, the meat of the torque spread is between 1950 and 5000 rpms. Yes, it is only useable for 10 seconds under full throttle applications. I haven't used it on my car yet, so maybe RC can add his observations, but I would believe that over 4000 rpms, over boost would cease and any subsequent shifts over 4000 rpms would be under normal boost conditions.
    My manual confirms this, unless it's a misprint.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Peak HP does not rise above 480! I would, obviously, believe that it does increase throughout the enhanced boost range, but beyond that; nill.
    I'm confident RC will chime in, but I don't think it's RC that doesn't know what he's talking about.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    devo said:
    Peak HP does not rise above 480! I would, obviously, believe that it does increase throughout the enhanced boost range, but beyond that; nill.
    I'm confident RC will chime in, but I don't think it's RC that doesn't know what he's talking about.


    The contradiction seems to be that if the overboost is activated for a duration of 10 seconds then it will be active past 5000 rpm and therefore increase peak power beyond 480hp - If as you say it "switches off" at 5000rpm regardless of whether it has been 5 seconds or 10 seconds then fair enough, peak power stays at 480 hp - In which case the statement that the overboost activates for 10 seconds is untrue
    Having said all that it seems like RC's overboost feature has a mind of its own anyway

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    devo said:
    Peak HP does not rise above 480! I would, obviously, believe that it does increase throughout the enhanced boost range, but beyond that; nill.
    I'm confident RC will chime in, but I don't think it's RC that doesn't know what he's talking about.


    The contradiction seems to be that if the overboost is activated for a duration of 10 seconds then it will be active past 5000 rpm and therefore increase peak power beyond 480hp - If as you say it "switches off" at 5000rpm regardless of whether it has been 5 seconds or 10 seconds then fair enough, peak power stays at 480 hp - In which case the statement that the overboost activates for 10 seconds is untrue
    Having said all that it seems like RC's overboost feature has a mind of its own anyway



    Also, what happens in case of the following:

    - the car drives at 5000rpm - SC is switched off
    - now revs are kept at 5000rpm and SC is being switched on

    Does the overboost indicator appear in the display? Does it appear after the throttle is fully engaged afterwards?

    RC, have you tried that procedure yet

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:... In which case the statement that the over-boost activates for 10 seconds is untrue



    You guys are reading way too much into this topic, and READING WAY TOO LITTLE of the ACTUAL INFORMATION available.

    The over-boost function has a MAXIMUM CONTINUOUS duration of 10 seconds. If interrupted by a shift (or other throttle lift), the timer is reset for another 10 seconds.

    The over-boost function only works in the RPM ranges shown on the torque vs. engine speed graphs posted to numerous other threads. The over-boost NEVER works at 7000 RPM because it was never designed to do so.

    BOTH of these (RPM and duration) limits/restrictions are in effect simultaneously!

    Just because the engine has revved from 1500 to 7000 RPM in less than 10 seconds DOES NOT MEAN that the over-boost is present at 7000 RPM. This fact does not connote a lie on Porsche's part, but a failure of some wishful thinkers to understand the nature of what is being specified.

    The easiest way to see the effect of the over-boost limitation is to force 6th gear and accelerate from 2000 RPM up a long (over 10 seconds) hill and see how long the increased boost lasts.

    One will only discover a limit if the actual triggering events for the limitation are experienced. I.E.: one has to have 10 seconds elapse during which the engine is continuously operating at full throttle in the RPM range wherein the over-boost function has an effect on boost pressure.

    This is probably a difficult to generate event in actual operation, unless an up-hill autobahn section is clear of traffic and one simply presses down on the throttle while holding in top gear.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    TB993tt said:... In which case the statement that the over-boost activates for 10 seconds is untrue



    You guys are reading way too much into this topic, and READING WAY TOO LITTLE of the ACTUAL INFORMATION available.

    The over-boost function has a MAXIMUM CONTINUOUS duration of 10 seconds. If interrupted by a shift (or other throttle lift), the timer is reset for another 10 seconds.

    The over-boost function only works in the RPM ranges shown on the torque vs. engine speed graphs posted to numerous other threads. The over-boost NEVER works at 7000 RPM because it was never designed to do so.

    BOTH of these (RPM and duration) limits/restrictions are in effect simultaneously!




    You are right. That is the impression one has after reading the documentation.

    However, RC's and CF's experience is not consistent with your above explanation. Unless the overboost indicator is out of order...

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    devo said:
    Peak HP does not rise above 480! I would, obviously, believe that it does increase throughout the enhanced boost range, but beyond that; nill.
    I'm confident RC will chime in, but I don't think it's RC that doesn't know what he's talking about.


    The contradiction seems to be that if the overboost is activated for a duration of 10 seconds then it will be active past 5000 rpm and therefore increase peak power beyond 480hp - If as you say it "switches off" at 5000rpm regardless of whether it has been 5 seconds or 10 seconds then fair enough, peak power stays at 480 hp - In which case the statement that the overboost activates for 10 seconds is untrue
    Having said all that it seems like RC's overboost feature has a mind of its own anyway



    Unfortunately it does return to normal boost after 4000 rpms, not 5000. The enhanced boost has a very narrow rev band. I believe it was meant for the higher gear, roll-on/passing scenario.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    If you can get the search function to work more than once, you'll find some interesting dyno sheets on the subject. Hope that helps.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    'Unfortunately it does return to normal boost after 4000 rpms, not 5000. The enhanced boost has a very narrow rev band. I believe it was meant for the higher gear, roll-on/passing scenario.'

    +++ Does this mean SC benefits Tip more than manual since the Tip tends to seek higher gears and lower revs?

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    devo said:
    Unfortunately it does return to normal boost after 4000 rpms, [...]



    Not in my test. See the short video I posted here: http://www.rennteam.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=245788&page=&vc=1

    This shows the overboost (at least the arrow!) stays on past 4000 rpm and for longer than 10 seconds.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    I don't doubt that, but are you really getting the extra boost after 4000 rpms or does the indicator stay lit because overboost is AVAILABLE for ten seconds at a time.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    TB993tt said:... In which case the statement that the over-boost activates for 10 seconds is untrue



    You guys are reading way too much into this topic, and READING WAY TOO LITTLE of the ACTUAL INFORMATION available.

    The over-boost function has a MAXIMUM CONTINUOUS duration of 10 seconds. If interrupted by a shift (or other throttle lift), the timer is reset for another 10 seconds.

    The over-boost function only works in the RPM ranges shown on the torque vs. engine speed graphs posted to numerous other threads. The over-boost NEVER works at 7000 RPM because it was never designed to do so.

    BOTH of these (RPM and duration) limits/restrictions are in effect simultaneously!

    Just because the engine has revved from 1500 to 7000 RPM in less than 10 seconds DOES NOT MEAN that the over-boost is present at 7000 RPM. This fact does not connote a lie on Porsche's part, but a failure of some wishful thinkers to understand the nature of what is being specified.

    The easiest way to see the effect of the over-boost limitation is to force 6th gear and accelerate from 2000 RPM up a long (over 10 seconds) hill and see how long the increased boost lasts.

    One will only discover a limit if the actual triggering events for the limitation are experienced. I.E.: one has to have 10 seconds elapse during which the engine is continuously operating at full throttle in the RPM range wherein the over-boost function has an effect on boost pressure.

    This is probably a difficult to generate event in actual operation, unless an up-hill autobahn section is clear of traffic and one simply presses down on the throttle while holding in top gear.



    I agree 100 % and that's what I've been saying all along. Once the theshold (4000 rpm) has been achieved, the overboost function is done and normal boost is resumed. Just because it CAN last for ten seconds, each and every full throttle application, does NOT mean it's providing addtional boost after 4k, even though the indicator light is lit.
    Not to overkill the issue, but, look at like this: overboost is present for ten second bursts OR between 2000-4000 rpms, whichever is achieved first.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Check out the Turbo Torque thread on 6speedonline, it clearly shows that overboost is active until 5000rpm.
    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50691

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    trip said:
    Check out the Turbo Torque thread on 6speedonline, it clearly shows that overboost is active until 5000rpm.
    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50691



    It wouldn't suprise me if the manual had a misprint. Their website indicates overboost between 2100-4000. It also has the turbo's 0-99 time at 11.2 or something crazy. Anyway, I hope it is 5000.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    trip said:
    Check out the Turbo Torque thread on 6speedonline, it clearly shows that overboost is active until 5000rpm.
    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50691



    The graph shows the torque curve, and not the boost pressure. The torque drops down from its plateau as of 4000 rpm, due to boost pressure being reduced to the "normal" level.

    Boost pressure would have to reduce gradually instead of in one sudden "step" input, otherwise it could cause the car to become unstable in some conditions, as might be the case if the driver suddenly closed the throttle.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    I was thinking the same thing, still the overboost may be shutting off at 4000 but its not completely off until 5000 rpm. If you had not activated overboost, you would have less HP/torque at 5000rpm than you would with it on.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    trip said:
    Check out the Turbo Torque thread on 6speedonline, it clearly shows that overboost is active until 5000rpm.
    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50691



    The graph shows the torque curve, and not the boost pressure. The torque drops down from its plateau as of 4000 rpm, due to boost pressure being reduced to the "normal" level.

    Boost pressure would have to reduce gradually instead of in one sudden "step" input, otherwise it could cause the car to become unstable in some conditions, as might be the case if the driver suddenly closed the throttle.



    Very interesting. Sounds good to me.

    Re: Wait time for PDK, Powerkit 520hp, Turbo S

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:However, RC's and CF's experience is not consistent with your above explanation. Unless the over-boost indicator is out of order...



    Remember, they both have Tips, not 6-speeds!

    The "arrow" indicator may merely mean that the 10 second timer has yet to expire and that the car is still "eligible" for over-boost, with or without the necessary RPM conditions being achieved at that very moment.

    The indicator may also have some small delay (persistence?) built in so that if the Tip shifts quickly the indicator doesn't have a chance to turn off, then back on.

    Then again, the necessary conditions for the 10 second limit may only happen during the 1900-4/5000 phase of WOT running and need not get in the way of fun if the engine is operated outside of the over-boost RPM zone for some time.

    The "arrow" indicator may not be very scientifically calibrated. It may mean what the field service or marketing departments wanted it to mean when they heard from engineering how the Turbo Sport Chrono functioned.

     
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