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    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

     Mike,

    I think we mean the same, but we didn´t say.

    Autobahn - of course you get a better feeling in a Panamera - no doubt - on Autobahn you don´t need a sports car for longer then 1-2 hours

    Race course - did anybody of us test a Panamera on a race course? I think this is the  domain/area of sports cars

    City/grocery mart - dou you need a sports car or sedan? If yes, then not a sports car.

    twisty mountain roads - that´s what we talking about - and yes Panamera is the best thing you can drive where four people can enjoy this riding - and yes there are better 2-seaters ;)


    --

    AM


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    Good, intelligent post, thanks.  I would add two factors for me--comfort and elegance.  I have owned, driven and raced many two seater Porsches, and as I get older (hopefully the golden years) I look more and more for a larger, more comfortable, more spacious performance car--and one I can take my friends and family to nice events in an elegant style.  My Cayenne TTS is perfect for now, but it still has an SUV feel to it, and gives that impression. 

    When I see a Panamera--and my color choice would be carbon metallic--I see elegance and performance and comfort.  A superlative package that appeals to me..


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    Indeed great and informative posts to everyone in this thread.


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    Just can't get past its (terrible) styling. Looks weird rather than unique/special, like a CL63AMG, S63AMG, A8, Maserati, Bentley etc. It appears Porsche believes all their models must look like a 911 - too bad. 

     


    --
    997TT Blk/Blk 05 Harley Davidson Ultra Classic

    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    mp:

    Looks weird rather than unique/special, like a CL63AMG, S63AMG, A8, Maserati, Bentley etc.  


    One man's weird is another's distinctive.

    I know an accomplished (major understatement) designer that saw the Panamera in Monterey and he told me that he was quite taken by it.  He thought it looked "very powerful" as a design idiom.

    YMMV Smiley


    --
     

    Mike

    2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow + 2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray +1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau +2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    Carlos...you should writing for the car magazines, well done


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    Wonderbar:

    Good, intelligent post, thanks.  I would add two factors for me--comfort and elegance.  I have owned, driven and raced many two seater Porsches, and as I get older (hopefully the golden years) I look more and more for a larger, more comfortable, more spacious performance car--and one I can take my friends and family to nice events in an elegant style.  My Cayenne TTS is perfect for now, but it still has an SUV feel to it, and gives that impression. 

    When I see a Panamera--and my color choice would be carbon metallic--I see elegance and performance and comfort.  A superlative package that appeals to me..


    Very good point. The same is quite for meSmiley


    --
    Kind regards, Conny 
    More pics:
    http://www.dayboox.com/group/Connys%20Galerie
     

    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    Great report, Carlos and very nice photos too. Smiley

    Thanks a lot !!!  Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

     

    BTW, it appears that the Sportauto Supertest of the Panamera turbo has been delayed... Maybe I am a bit too suspicious here - however, something tells me that one possible reason might be an unsatisfactory test result in the first test (and a potential second chance for a better test result) Smiley Obviously, this is pure speculation.


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    MKSGR:

     

    BTW, it appears that the Sportauto Supertest of the Panamera turbo has been delayed... Maybe I am a bit too suspicious here - however, something tells me that one possible reason might be an unsatisfactory test result in the first test (and a potential second chance for a better test result) Smiley Obviously, this is pure speculation.


    Actually, reason is bad weather on the Ring(if we both can buy it...).

    Hockenheim time is pretty good anyway...


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    KresoF1:
    MKSGR:

     

    BTW, it appears that the Sportauto Supertest of the Panamera turbo has been delayed... Maybe I am a bit too suspicious here - however, something tells me that one possible reason might be an unsatisfactory test result in the first test (and a potential second chance for a better test result) Smiley Obviously, this is pure speculation.


    Actually, reason is bad weather on the Ring(if we both can buy it...).

    Hockenheim time is pretty good anyway...

     

    Smiley Smiley


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    MKSGR:
    KresoF1:
    MKSGR:

     

    BTW, it appears that the Sportauto Supertest of the Panamera turbo has been delayed... Maybe I am a bit too suspicious here - however, something tells me that one possible reason might be an unsatisfactory test result in the first test (and a potential second chance for a better test result) Smiley Obviously, this is pure speculation.


    Actually, reason is bad weather on the Ring(if we both can buy it...).

    Hockenheim time is pretty good anyway...

     

    Smiley Smiley

    1.13,7min fantastic time indeed.Smiley
     

    JUST.... E63 AMG 1.14,0min!!


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    How much will Panameras go for in US for?

    I see a white one all the time in Zagreb and saw a black one to, but only from a distance... very nice!


    --
    Cash, gas or ass... no one rides for free!

    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    janus:

    How much will Panameras go for in US for?

    I see a white one all the time in Zagreb and saw a black one to, but only from a distance... very nice!


    White Pana Turbo that you saw in ZG looks totally horrible IMHO. Black Pana S belong to somebody I know... Pana looks much better in darker shades.


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    White looks bulky IMO... darker is better. Same can be said for Cayenne. The white one I saw in city centre was not a Turbo thoughSmiley

    haha, My good friends father was shown the black one by its owner the other day and he was amazed how special it is. Especially inside. He was like WOW! is that a Porsche limousine?! Whaaat?  Maybe it's the same guySmiley


    --
    Cash, gas or ass... no one rides for free!


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    Small dealer in my area has sold four Panameras already--two turbos and two 4S.  One customer came to the showroom to have his Cayenne Turbo serviced, and was so excited about a Panamera Turbo that he worked a deal on the spot and drove the Panamera home.  This all may be just first blush excitement buying, but seems like the Panamera is off to a good start....


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    I'm still hoping for a price drop on slightly used cars (similar to the BMW 7 series and Mercedes S class...they loose 30% of their value in the first 6 months...*LOL*) AND a re-design or at least improvement of the rear. The rear is really something I can't get used to and many people I know who are interested buying the Panamera tell me the same story.

    Btw, interesting side-note: non-Germans or those of non German origin seem to like the Panamera much more. I talked to several people at my dealer and at my business and most of those who liked the Panamera like it is were of Turkish or Ex-Jugoslavia descent. Don't get me wrong but I kind of get the feeling that they like "here I come" cars more than Germans.

    For me, the Panamera is a love/hate relationship. I love the technology and performance, I don't like the looks. It is pretty similar to my feelings towards the first Cayenne generation.

    Since I can't make a buying decision right now anyway (997 Turbo lease expires summer 2011), I have enough time to make the right decision. I still hope that the Panamera gets a facelift by mid of 2011 or that the new Cayenne generation is so overwhelming that I forget about the Panamera. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    RC:

    I'm still hoping for a price drop on slightly used cars (similar to the BMW 7 series and Mercedes S class...they loose 30% of their value in the first 6 months...*LOL*) AND a re-design or at least improvement of the rear. The rear is really something I can't get used to and many people I know who are interested buying the Panamera tell me the same story.

    Btw, interesting side-note: non-Germans or those of non German origin seem to like the Panamera much more. I talked to several people at my dealer and at my business and most of those who liked the Panamera like it is were of Turkish or Ex-Jugoslavia descent. Don't get me wrong but I kind of get the feeling that they like "here I come" cars more than Germans.

    For me, the Panamera is a love/hate relationship. I love the technology and performance, I don't like the looks. It is pretty similar to my feelings towards the first Cayenne generation.

    Since I can't make a buying decision right now anyway (997 Turbo lease expires summer 2011), I have enough time to make the right decision. I still hope that the Panamera gets a facelift by mid of 2011 or that the new Cayenne generation is so overwhelming that I forget about the Panamera. 


    Christian, regarding Panamera I fully agree with you. For me it is also love/hate-for the same reasons.

    I looked black Pana very closely few times now and despite the fact that it looks better in darker shades then in light one I still can not love the way it looks.

    Currently there are at least two more natural choices for me:

    Jaguar XFR-much, much cheaper. Great to drive. OK, not as fast as Pana Turbo.

    Mercedes E63-again with same equipment level much cheaper the Pana Turbo. Very fast. On Hockenheim at least according to latest Sport Auto almost as fast as Pana Turbo. Enough for me. Tenoritgrau with AMG Performance package and 300km/h limiter. Yes, please.


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

     Yes, the E63 is really a bargain compared to the Panamera Turbo. My local Mercedes dealer already offered me 20(!)% off a brandnew car if they put their dealership license plates on it for a month (I could still drive it during that time). 

    The XF-R is really a nice car and VERY cheap compared to the Panamera Turbo, performance is almost the same and it is a car which most people don't know and it doesn't look too shiny, a good thing for me.

    I guess I need to wait another 18 months to make that final decision.

    Btw: BMW is also getting more interesting...new M5 is on the horizon, the X5M/X6M are also interesting products.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    RC:

     

    I talked to several people at my dealer and at my business and most of those who liked the Panamera like it is were of Turkish or Ex-Jugoslavia descent. Don't get me wrong but I kind of get the feeling that they like "here I come" cars more than Germans.

     

    From what I´ve gathered big limousines have a significant status in these countries´ expatriates, possibly a higher one than a two-seater sportscar or a SUV. That´s at least my experience with friends who originate from these particular regions.


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

     No, people from that part of Europe has better taste :)


    --

    AM


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    Thank you Carlos, great report and picturesSmiley


    --

    10 PRINT "997.2 Carrera S rules"

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    30 RUN


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    ALDO:

     No, people from that part of Europe has better taste :)

    Smiley Well...this is another way to look at it. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    Very bad RC ... very bad .   BTW  it will be more Panameras in Germany than Turkey and Ex - Jugoslavia , combined .  How will you analyze that  ??

    I shall not tackle  ' here I come'  cars  as a proof of bad taste / cultural inferiority - that's your homework

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    It was great of you to take the time to post all of the photos with corresponding text and explanations. Smiley

    I am driving a 7 Series 2009, previous model.  I also have a 2006 997C.  When I drive the 997 the engine is just so much finer and responsive its incredible.  However, I like the entertainment and communications and instrumentation of the 7.  (Its so easy to drive around town.)  So, I'm looking for a more athletic big sedan and your Panamera review insures that I'll test drive it along with MB S63 & 65, and new 7 series. The 7 feels too heavy and not spry enough.  I drove Cayennes and never liked them.  (Too much money for an unexceptional car.) 

    Thanks again. Smiley  

    I'll add a post as I test my way through these cars.  Looking to buy in June of '10.

    Regards

     

     


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    If you're looking for a Cayenne, only the Turbo or Turbo S are worth buying. The Cayenne is too heavy to deliver enough fun without at least the Turbo engine. The Panamera 4S is a very nice sedan but don't expect the same driving experience as with the 997. If you go for the Panamera, don't forget the Sport Chrono package. Without it, the Panamera lacks a lot of sportiness.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    Misha011:

    Very bad RC ... very bad .   BTW  it will be more Panameras in Germany than Turkey and Ex - Jugoslavia , combined .  How will you analyze that  ??

    I shall not tackle  ' here I come'  cars  as a proof of bad taste / cultural inferiority - that's your homework


    It is a FACT that for example Gemballa and Techart sell more cars outside Germany. It is a FACT that "here I come" cars have more success outside Germany. This has nothing to do with bad taste or cultural inferiority (what the heck, we wouldn't run an international car forum if we would think we're "superior"??? Smiley) but with the fact that in Germany, you just can't "afford" to drive a shiny "here I come" car if you don't want to loose customers or even friends. We have a very touchy society over here and even if some people don't seem to realize it, it is a fact. Before having kids, me and my wife couldn't care less about what people were thinking about our lifestyle but when the kids come home and tell you that their class mates tell them that they're rich and that daddy and mommy are "exploiting the poor", you soon realize what is going on at the homes of these class mates. Especially since the financial crisis, things got worse. We have "rich" friends too but most of the people we know, due to the kids, are middle class people or even below that. You just can't imagine what "feedback" we get and trust me, me and my wife are very friendly and open hearted people since we both aren't Germans by origin and we really embrace international culture. Most german families we know, another fact (sorry Rossi), are very narrow minded and limited to their own culture and background. My girl is the third best pupil in her class (class of 26) and a couple of mothers asked her class teacher  how it is possible that she is THAT good in German because her mother speaks with an accent. Smiley The class teacher was very surprised too, this is why she told us.

    Bottom line is: Germans are very friendly people, especially if they "warm up" towards you but some of them, especially younger (25-40) families, are very narrow minded and living in their own traditional way which was very surprising for us to learn when we got the kids.  I speak German without an accent and have a german name but people are still referring to us as "foreigners" because of my wife and the multi-cultural background. It is difficult to explain.

    Cars are and were always some sort of status symbol over here, even if people remove the model badges from their cars for various reasons. Driving a Porsche, especially a Cayenne, is like a red flag, a stigma. Our town is small and there are a lot of ordinary workers living and working here, things are completely different in Munich for example. Some of our wealthy friends are sending their kids to an international school over here, a school which teaches in English. We didn't want to do this, we wanted our kids to go to normal school, to get used to "normal" life and not a private school. Maybe we were wrong because the advantage of the international school would have been different friends and families who don't have "money" as their primary discussion point.

    Every country and culture has positive and negative sides, no doubt about it. Unfortunately Germany is one of the countries where the visible wealth of people can cause a lot of envy and negative vibes. My customers gossip each and every day about "bankers" and "managers" and how "evil" they are. All they gossip about is how much people earn and how much money they have.

    It really depends on where you live in Germany and if you have kids or not. I've never realized how envious people are before having kids. Apparently a lot of people with kids have to cut back on their expenses/lifestyle and they start blaming people like us for it. It may be the same in other countries too but since I live in Germany, I can talk about Germany only.

    As a last point (sorry for the off-topic stuff I posted):

    during the Porsche 100 years celebration at my dealership, I met a lot of people over there, mostly doctors I know personally but also other people who could afford buying a Panamera. Most of them liked the Panamera a lot but not a single person I met was seriously considering buying one. The main reason was: it is too big and too "here I come" but the high price tag was another reason too. I also heard two comments that the Panamera is no real Porsche but this is crap and I never paid attention to such claims. Most people, like I said, liked the Panamera but apparently Porsche didn't create the Panamera for the local market but more for Asia and the US like the regional manager confirmed to me.

    Take the new BMW 5 series, the size is perfect for a sedan, not too big but not too small either. This car will be a huge success over here, the 550i with a 407 HP bi-turbo engine costs around 70000 EUR over here, with some nice options around 80000 EUR. Then, take 10% rebate off the sticker price and you get a decent and sporty sedan for 72000 EUR. Now take the Panamera S in comparison, base price is 94500 EUR over here. Add the same options to the Panamera and you get a price tag of around 110000 EUR. Now take away lets say 5% rebate off the sticker (German Porsche dealers usually give a maximum of 3-6% rebate on the Panamera, depending on the model and if you buy one they have on stock or not) and you have a final price tag of around 104500 EUR. This is 32500(!) EUR more than for the BMW 550i. For this kind of money, you could get a used Boxster for your wife.

    Sorry but as much as I love the Porsche brand and even the Panamera, the price tag and the size of this car are deal breakers for me. Not only for me but for many other people over here in Germany too.

    Take the 911 Sport Classic as a last example for Porsche's crazy price tag policy.

    Then, take the Ferrari 458 Italia as a comparison. Even I as a passionate Porsche hardcore lover would prefer the 458 Italia over the 911 Sport Classic, not only because of the price tag but also because of the performance and fun both cars would deliver.

    If Porsche wants to survive, they need to come back to their senses and I really hope that VW will take care of that. Porsche can't be an exclusive manufacturer building 100000 cars a year. Even at the current 75000 units, there is no exclusivity in my opinion. Asking a lot of money for their cars isn't justified and if Porsche prices start to exceed Ferrari prices, something is going wrong.

    The Panamera also looks bigger than a Bentley, I really don't think that Porsche should have gone this way. It should have rather been the sportiest sedan on the market but even if the Panamera is fast on the Nordschleife, I bet that there soon will be a faster sedan on the market. The Panamera is just too huge and too heavy for this purpose and even if some drivers claim it delivers the same drive feel as the 997, I can assure you that it doesn't. My 997 Turbo has the original chassis/suspension and it feels much sportier than the Panamera Turbo. Take the 997 Carrera S with sport chassis or the GT3 and the drive feel is even sportier compared to the 997 Turbo.

    Bottom line is: the Panamera is a great sedan, no doubt about it but it is not even close to the 911. The Panamera Turbo felt to me like a lowered Cayenne Turbo S but I guess my opinion in this matter is not very popular. 


    --
     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    A very interesting reading(both off-topic about germany and panamera),thanks!


    --
    Dedi La vita è troppo corta per non guidare italiano.....

    Re: Road Test: Panamera Turbo and Panamera 4S

    2times:

    It was great of you to take the time to post all of the photos with corresponding text and explanations. Smiley

    I am driving a 7 Series 2009, previous model.  I also have a 2006 997C.  When I drive the 997 the engine is just so much finer and responsive its incredible.  However, I like the entertainment and communications and instrumentation of the 7.  (Its so easy to drive around town.)  So, I'm looking for a more athletic big sedan and your Panamera review insures that I'll test drive it along with MB S63 & 65, and new 7 series. The 7 feels too heavy and not spry enough.  I drove Cayennes and never liked them.  (Too much money for an unexceptional car.) 

    Thanks again. Smiley  

    I'll add a post as I test my way through these cars.  Looking to buy in June of '10.

    Regards

     

    I'm glad you liked it Smiley


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